R
Rozellelily
Guest
I don’t want to derail the thread but how does conversion change the persons internal state,if you wouldn’t mind?
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R
Rozellelily
Guest
@Arkansan
Thanks for the link.
It would seem odd to me though that Journalists would have more “right” to inform the public of a potential Political candidates shortcomings than a husband or wife would have the right to know of their spouses infidelities.
“As it is, what the person would want cannot be known without informing them, so a presumption should be made based on what the comparative benefits and harms are that will follow from each possible decision (whether to tell them or not)…”
Thats why I think people should know “who each other are” are before getting married.
Some people just get married off chemistry or emotions having no idea of something as vital as whether their spouse want to know/not know if there was unfaithfulness.
If you value honesty,it’s good to find out before marriage if your “partner” also does too.
“If they are informed, the negative effect will be that they will, at a minimum, be devastated, and may also leave the guilty spouse…”
On the other hand,if they don’t know but find out later,they may then certainly leave the guilty spouse as they found out not only did they cheat but they were deceptive all these years too.
Very disrespectful.
The innocent spouse should at least be given the respect of knowing the truth so they can be in position to make informed choice whether to stay or leave.
If they were told with honesty and courage and consideration for their feelings (instead of the fears of the guilty party) at the time of the “event”,perhaps they might had tried to make the marriage work.
Thanks for the link.
It would seem odd to me though that Journalists would have more “right” to inform the public of a potential Political candidates shortcomings than a husband or wife would have the right to know of their spouses infidelities.
“As it is, what the person would want cannot be known without informing them, so a presumption should be made based on what the comparative benefits and harms are that will follow from each possible decision (whether to tell them or not)…”
Thats why I think people should know “who each other are” are before getting married.
Some people just get married off chemistry or emotions having no idea of something as vital as whether their spouse want to know/not know if there was unfaithfulness.
If you value honesty,it’s good to find out before marriage if your “partner” also does too.
“If they are informed, the negative effect will be that they will, at a minimum, be devastated, and may also leave the guilty spouse…”
On the other hand,if they don’t know but find out later,they may then certainly leave the guilty spouse as they found out not only did they cheat but they were deceptive all these years too.
Very disrespectful.
The innocent spouse should at least be given the respect of knowing the truth so they can be in position to make informed choice whether to stay or leave.
If they were told with honesty and courage and consideration for their feelings (instead of the fears of the guilty party) at the time of the “event”,perhaps they might had tried to make the marriage work.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Of course. You have teachers, counselors, psychologists or priests. They have their own roles respectively. It is important to see that in perspective and not assume their duties over the other.
Priests will hear your Confession and decide what are sins. As for counselors, there are many types of them. Christian marriage counselors, for example, would always try to take the Chruch doctrines into consideration when they give counsel or advice but they are not the clergy. So it’s important to know who decide what and what they can do. Ultimately, it is still between the person and God.
Priests will hear your Confession and decide what are sins. As for counselors, there are many types of them. Christian marriage counselors, for example, would always try to take the Chruch doctrines into consideration when they give counsel or advice but they are not the clergy. So it’s important to know who decide what and what they can do. Ultimately, it is still between the person and God.
S
stupidisasstupiddoes
Guest
The ISIS arguement is an old philosophy that you’ll find being debated over time in various forms (e.g. nazis and jews). Sometimes people get so deep into philosophy that they can’t see the wood from the trees anymore. If your choice is between upsetting a nazi or enabling a war crime then it’s not really a difficult choice is it? Furthermore, “stay silent” is a kop out answer. Men with guns aren’t just going to accept that.
The adultery one is much more complicated. I don’t think there is a one size fits all answer to that because you can’t pretend these decisions exist in a vacuum. Some people would literally fall apart (mentally) if they found their spouse had cheated on them. It would wreck that family unit, not everyone has the mental capacity to recover from it. I think you confess your sins to God, often when people feel need to confess to a partner it’s actually for their own benefit.
The adultery one is much more complicated. I don’t think there is a one size fits all answer to that because you can’t pretend these decisions exist in a vacuum. Some people would literally fall apart (mentally) if they found their spouse had cheated on them. It would wreck that family unit, not everyone has the mental capacity to recover from it. I think you confess your sins to God, often when people feel need to confess to a partner it’s actually for their own benefit.
R
Rozellelily
Guest
That’s how I see the first issue but I was told the issue is that lying is never not sin (even to Nazi or Isis)!
That the lie itself is a sin in this situation.
I don’t get this reasoning because doesn’t it have to make sense the reason why sins are sins and this to me makes no sense because Nazi or similar are not owed this truth/this information so which relationship is it harming.
Regarding the adultery issue I understand what you are saying but at the same time,shouldn’t a marriage be built on honesty and trust?
That the lie itself is a sin in this situation.
I don’t get this reasoning because doesn’t it have to make sense the reason why sins are sins and this to me makes no sense because Nazi or similar are not owed this truth/this information so which relationship is it harming.
Regarding the adultery issue I understand what you are saying but at the same time,shouldn’t a marriage be built on honesty and trust?
A
Augustine3
Guest
Adultery is an evil action but silence is not intrinsically evil per se.The difference is because you know that Isis is very likely going to harm (kill,decapitate) that person but in the second case “you” yourself have done the hurtful act (infidelity) and are then doing a second wrong by not being honest.
1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.
The person might have a good intention (not to cause their husband/wife hurt) but they are doing a “bad action” (deceit) to bring this about.
T
thistle
Guest
CCC 2482 “A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.” The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: “You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
CCC 2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
CCC 2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.
CCC 2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.
CCC 2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.
CCC 2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.
CCC 2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
CCC 2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.
CCC 2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.
CCC 2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.
CCC 2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.
R
Rozellelily
Guest
But is silence and deception the same?
Ie:Isis/similar asks where someone is and you remain silent vocally whereas with the spouse you know you have done something very serious that would affect them,yet choose to be deceptive about it.
Even if deception itself wasn’t intrinsically evil or even sin,doesn’t it strike you as shady for a person to think or say to their husband/wife “well if you had of asked me straight up I would have told you the truth that I had cheated but because you didn’t I chose to keep it a secret and not to honour you with honesty”?
Ie:Isis/similar asks where someone is and you remain silent vocally whereas with the spouse you know you have done something very serious that would affect them,yet choose to be deceptive about it.
Even if deception itself wasn’t intrinsically evil or even sin,doesn’t it strike you as shady for a person to think or say to their husband/wife “well if you had of asked me straight up I would have told you the truth that I had cheated but because you didn’t I chose to keep it a secret and not to honour you with honesty”?
R
Reuben_J
Guest
When we talk about the doctrine of the Church, it does not depend on our personal opinion, which sometimes can be wrong. It has to be in accordance with the Church’s teaching. Let that be clear.That’s how I see the first issue but I was told the issue is that lying is never not sin (even to Nazi or Isis)!
That the lie itself is a sin in this situation.
I don’t get this reasoning because doesn’t it have to make sense the reason why sins are sins and this to me makes no sense because Nazi or similar are not owed this truth/this information so which relationship is it harming.
Regarding the adultery issue I understand what you are saying but at the same time,shouldn’t a marriage be built on honesty and trust?
When we talk about specific example of real life situation, it has to be judged and analysed specifically.
The issue here is whether there is a situation where lying is approved?
Whether we can lie if it is a matter of life and death? Whether a person must tell the spouse after committing adultery?
You are bringing the adultery issue because you think that lie is mitigated under certain situation, like the Islamic model, and thus not a sin but rather, permitted. Therefore, when you are told that lie is a sin/not permitted, in your thinking therefore then an adulterous person must tell the spouse immediately, of course with disastrous effect to the marriage. You are saying that to enforce the idea that lie should be permitted in certain situation.
Please comment whether I get you correctly or not.
R
Rozellelily
Guest
Thankyou @Thistle
Could you please elaborate whether these CC passages are pertaining to the issue regarding ISIS (or nazis,psychopath etc) or whether they are referring to th issue of being deceptive vs telling the truth about infidelity?
Could you please elaborate whether these CC passages are pertaining to the issue regarding ISIS (or nazis,psychopath etc) or whether they are referring to th issue of being deceptive vs telling the truth about infidelity?
S
stupidisasstupiddoes
Guest
Marriage is indeed built on trust and honesty, if you’ve been unfaithful than you’ve already violated that though! Why make a bad situation worse?
T
thistle
Guest
Nazis coming to a house (where a family are hiding Jews) demanding to know if there are Jews hiding in that house are NOT entitled to know the truth.
R
Rozellelily
Guest
@Rueben_j
Sort of.
There’s s a couple of issues.
I am still trying to get a 100% clear understanding whether the Catholic “model” differs from Islam “model” in regards to whether lying is ever not sin but I’m also trying to understand why sins are sins (if that makes sense).
Eg:if it’s a sin to ever lie even in duress situations where nobody is “validly” hurt,does that mean that “sins are sins” simply because it’s Gods instruction,or if it rather that they have to be sensical (to the majority of public).
Some are saying it’s always a sin to lie and others say it isn’t in these extreme duress situations and the Catechism or commandments don’t give a 100% definition answer.
The second issue about infidelity just seems to me like splitting hairs-ie:it’s sin to outright lie but not to decieve?
What’s the difference between the two as they both hurt another individual in reality?
Sort of.
There’s s a couple of issues.
I am still trying to get a 100% clear understanding whether the Catholic “model” differs from Islam “model” in regards to whether lying is ever not sin but I’m also trying to understand why sins are sins (if that makes sense).
Eg:if it’s a sin to ever lie even in duress situations where nobody is “validly” hurt,does that mean that “sins are sins” simply because it’s Gods instruction,or if it rather that they have to be sensical (to the majority of public).
Some are saying it’s always a sin to lie and others say it isn’t in these extreme duress situations and the Catechism or commandments don’t give a 100% definition answer.
The second issue about infidelity just seems to me like splitting hairs-ie:it’s sin to outright lie but not to decieve?
What’s the difference between the two as they both hurt another individual in reality?
R
Rozellelily
Guest
But what if they find out later though and felt hurt or betrayed at not just the unfaithfulness but also the dishonesty?
Don’t they have a “right” to know the character of the person they married and the right to make decisions based on the truth?
Don’t they have a “right” to know the character of the person they married and the right to make decisions based on the truth?
R
Rozellelily
Guest
@thistle does that mean that’s it’s permittable to lie in such a situation without sin or does it rather mean a person must just stay silent (even though it seems a bit unrealistic)?
S
stupidisasstupiddoes
Guest
I will tell you from my own experience with a former girlfriend that i cheated on. To be clear, we were not married or engaged, but we had a relationship lasting multiple years. The truth was that i despised her by the end of it, i understand it’s counter-intuitive to be in a relationship with someone you despise but humans are not the most rational creatures and inertia is an incredible thing. I cheated on her and ended the relationship shortly after. She couldn’t understand why I ended things because she loved me very much and lacked the self awareness to understand how much i loathed her. We had multiple phone calls where she would cry and eventually i told her that i’d cheated on her. It hurt her deeply and i realised in my heart that I had taken the cowards way out. At that time, I wasn’t man enough to admit to her all the things I couldn’t stand about her and instead I unburdened myself at her expenses. I am not proud of what I did but I share it to try and help others learn. People might say the context is different if you are married and want to stay together but I would say it isn’t. What I am saying is that my true motivations were selfish and cowardly. That does not mean there are not other circumstances where someone should come clean and rebuild, but it is my opinion that people who have a blanket justification that the truth is always the best option are actually hiding their true motivations.
R
Rozellelily
Guest
Thankyou for your honesty in sharing your experience.
I’m not wanting to cause any offence, and excuse me if I come off too blunt,but perhaps this is a bit of a psychological flaw/weakness?
Ie:do you think you were unfaithful as cheating on her seemed an easier option to get out of the relationship with a girl who was perhaps too needy or had “rose coloured glasses” on rather then being courageous and telling her that the relationship wouldn’t work due to being too incompatible?
You felt weak to spare her from the hurt of breaking up with her?
I think in a situation like this a person can just break up with someone by saying they are too incompatible and it’s not necessarily to go into the “fine detail” of what they dislike about the girl/guy.
By telling her you were unfaithful made her want to leave the relationship and give you a way out?
Although the motivations were wrong and she was very hurt,was telling her the truth the real issue or was the issue rather that you couldn’t find the courage to be upfront/honest with her in the first place and tell her you were breaking up?
Z
I’m not wanting to cause any offence, and excuse me if I come off too blunt,but perhaps this is a bit of a psychological flaw/weakness?
Ie:do you think you were unfaithful as cheating on her seemed an easier option to get out of the relationship with a girl who was perhaps too needy or had “rose coloured glasses” on rather then being courageous and telling her that the relationship wouldn’t work due to being too incompatible?
You felt weak to spare her from the hurt of breaking up with her?
I think in a situation like this a person can just break up with someone by saying they are too incompatible and it’s not necessarily to go into the “fine detail” of what they dislike about the girl/guy.
By telling her you were unfaithful made her want to leave the relationship and give you a way out?
Although the motivations were wrong and she was very hurt,was telling her the truth the real issue or was the issue rather that you couldn’t find the courage to be upfront/honest with her in the first place and tell her you were breaking up?
Z
Tis_Bearself
Patron
We do have “sins of omission” in the Catholic Church.Understanding the difference between an action and an omission is fundamental to any non-consequentialist ethical system.
The Confiteor specifically references sins of action (“I have greatly sinned…in what I have done”) and sins of omission (“and in what I have failed to do”).
The issue here is whether not telling your spouse is possibly a “sin of omission”.
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R
Rozellelily
Guest
@stupidisasstupiddoes,
maybe telling the spouse/girlfriend is not ideal when the motives are “self serving” but my concern is also that some people might not tell them due to self serving motives (eg:fear they will get mad,leave the marriage,won’t be able to cope with their emotions,lacking courage etc).
maybe telling the spouse/girlfriend is not ideal when the motives are “self serving” but my concern is also that some people might not tell them due to self serving motives (eg:fear they will get mad,leave the marriage,won’t be able to cope with their emotions,lacking courage etc).
Tis_Bearself
Patron
This is not quite the same thing.I will tell you from my own experience with a former girlfriend that i cheated on. To be clear, we were not married or engaged, but we had a relationship lasting multiple years.
First of all, if you weren’t married or engaged, by Catholic standards you should not have been having sex or its preliminaries with her or with anyone else, so the sexual aspect of cheating, which is very important in a marriage, is sort of a moot point in a non-marriage because if you are having sex with anybody - girlfriend or stranger - you’re committing a big sin.
Second, if you are not yet married, you have not yet taken an exclusive, committed vow to your partner. “Cheating” before marriage can be a predictor of how a person might continue to behave after marriage, but as one has not taken the marriage vow yet, there is no vow to break. Thus, you could have someone who is in a relationship with person A, but not yet married, suddenly meet person B and, after some time of juggling both relationships, decide they love person B and leave person A for person B, and it would not necessarily be a sin as there was not yet a marital vow to break with person A. However, if you were actually married to person A and then decided to cheat with person B or leave A for B, it is a much, much bigger deal and definitely a sin due to the breaking of the marital vow that you took before God (if you were married in the Catholic Church).
Third, once you are married in the Catholic Church, it’s supposed to be till death do us part; it cannot be ended by a divorce, you would need to get an annulment, which is a more difficult procedure. The Church has a significant interest in trying to preserve marriages wherever possible. The preservation of the marriage might provide some motivation for a spouse to not want to tell the other spouse about an infidelity. Obviously the Church does not have that same interest in trying to preserve relationships between two people who are not married to each other.
I realize this is not a popular view to say that a long-term relationship between unmarried people is not the same thing as a marriage (especially a marriage in the Catholic Church), but that’s the way it is. You have a lot more leeway when you are not yet married.
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