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stupidisasstupiddoes
Guest
Where did I say I have sex with someone? Please refrain from such assumptions as they come across judgmental and i’m sure you wouldn’t want to be accused of casting the first stone.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
If you weren’t having sex with anyone, fine, good for you.
However, that just underscores my point about an unmarried relationship being different from a married one. People who are married to each other, have sex with each other.
An infidelity in a marriage generally involves one spouse having sex, or the preliminaries, with someone outside the marriage. That is what people typically mean by “unfaithful”.
The idea of one’s spouse being intimate with someone outside the marriage can trigger some very strong emotions that may not be to the same level if spouse just ate lunch with someone outside the marriage.
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stupidisasstupiddoes
Guest
Absolutely it’s a psychological flaw, so no offence taken, young men have many of those! Fortunately some of us learn by our mistakes. I think the point I want to make is that a lot of the time, people want to confess to relieve their own guilt. They are not actually doing it to be honest, that is just a by-product. Yes the context is different but i think that principle applies. Some people are better off knowing and some people are devastated by it and it will spiral into more and more trust issues. Sometimes we should carry the consequences of our actions and that consequence might be carrying some guilt around, that’s the point i want to make.
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Francis
Guest
Hi ,@Rozellelily
A lie is a lie under all circumstances, its venial or small,for example if you murder some one and say, i didn’t,commit it, its becomes a moral sin which is grievous.
As your example of not mentioning about family member/friend is not a lie but rather,using the virtue of prudence by keeping silent,the second case you mentioning of infidelity or adultery is a grievous sin and has to be confessed, by keeping silent is prudence,because we have to take into consideration the other spouse’s sensitivity for example if he or she is suffering with cancer will it not add to the sorrows of that spouse or if the other spouse in very sensitive and not an understanding spouse ,if revealed, may lead to greater damage, which may lead to a divorce and what about their little children? would be deprived of their Father or Mother ,so it’s prudence to keep silent and not a sin of omission but if the spouse is very loving and understanding i don’t think he or she should not reveal it,but we know our human nature the spouse will keep on accusing till their end of their life of the infidelity, that’s why its recommended not to reveal.because there is a greater good in keeping silent.
The sin of omission is for example if you see persons robbing a bank and you keep silent is a sin of omission ,because your duty as a good citizen your suppose to inform the cops, other wise your an accomplice in their crime hope you understand the difference God Bless
A lie is a lie under all circumstances, its venial or small,for example if you murder some one and say, i didn’t,commit it, its becomes a moral sin which is grievous.
As your example of not mentioning about family member/friend is not a lie but rather,using the virtue of prudence by keeping silent,the second case you mentioning of infidelity or adultery is a grievous sin and has to be confessed, by keeping silent is prudence,because we have to take into consideration the other spouse’s sensitivity for example if he or she is suffering with cancer will it not add to the sorrows of that spouse or if the other spouse in very sensitive and not an understanding spouse ,if revealed, may lead to greater damage, which may lead to a divorce and what about their little children? would be deprived of their Father or Mother ,so it’s prudence to keep silent and not a sin of omission but if the spouse is very loving and understanding i don’t think he or she should not reveal it,but we know our human nature the spouse will keep on accusing till their end of their life of the infidelity, that’s why its recommended not to reveal.because there is a greater good in keeping silent.
The sin of omission is for example if you see persons robbing a bank and you keep silent is a sin of omission ,because your duty as a good citizen your suppose to inform the cops, other wise your an accomplice in their crime hope you understand the difference God Bless
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stupidisasstupiddoes
Guest
People define unfaithful in many ways, Jesus talked about looking as someone with lust as unfaithful. For others a kiss would be cheating and for others it’s only sexual acts. I think the intention is more significant than the act.
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jfz178
Guest
To the point about lying to ISIS: I have been through SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) training in the Navy. The main phase of it is a simulation of a being a prisoner of war, experiencing actual torture and being questioned by a professional interrogator who is not an instructor. The interrogator is from an unnamed US intelligence agency and he comes in just for that phase and the debrief and then you never see him again. They use physical and mental stress, and sleep deprivation to the point that your mind starts to disassociate that it is only training. It’s intense, but really well designed!
As a POW, you have some duties and one of them is to survive, both physically and mentally. If ISIS asks you if you are Catholic or a Christian, and you know that will get you killed, you have an obligation to say whatever will keep you alive. It is not the time or the place to make a religious statement and your example of being a “martyr” would be lost on ISIS and never known to the outside world.
As a POW, you have some duties and one of them is to survive, both physically and mentally. If ISIS asks you if you are Catholic or a Christian, and you know that will get you killed, you have an obligation to say whatever will keep you alive. It is not the time or the place to make a religious statement and your example of being a “martyr” would be lost on ISIS and never known to the outside world.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
This is interesting because I recently heard some sermons (I can’t remember if both of them were Cardinal Dolan, but one was) basically praising as Catholic martyrs persons who declared to ISIS that they were Catholics and were gruesomely murdered on the spot. Two of the situations involved private citizens who were killed and the third involved a bunch of Coptics (I think) who were on a religious pilgrimage, and whose bus was stopped and each was asked if they were Catholic and were slaughtered individually as each gave the answer. The theme of these homilies was “look how brave these witnesses were, would you be as brave in that situation and live up to the example of these glorious martyrs, or would you lie?”
This was not a POW situation however and the persons did not have a conflicting duty to their country or military branch to try to stay alive.
This was not a POW situation however and the persons did not have a conflicting duty to their country or military branch to try to stay alive.
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boldlygo
Guest
Yes!! A marriage must be built on honesty and trust!
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Reuben_J
Guest
@Rozellelily
I just want to avoid complicating the issue that you want to address. What it looks like now, you are confusing Church’s teaching and what Catholics do. You gave the example of lying under duress e.g. being threatened by ISIS. And that a person should tell a spouse of his/her infidelity.
Okay then. Christian’s teaching on lying, as far as I know, differs from that of Islam.
There is no Christian’s teaching where lying is allowed while in Islam it is explicitly allowed as stated categorically both in the Quran and the Hadith albeit in certain situations. Hope that is clear enough.
Now you are talking about application. Up front, I think the principle of sin is that we cannot justify it so that it is not a sin anymore. Yes, a sin is a sin. Both lying and adultery are stated clearly even in the Ten Commandment. We cannot change that.
So what about if a Christian is captured by a terrorist, say ISIS, who would want to kill a Christian? Is it alright for that Christian to lie? In Islam, it is explicitly allowed to lie about one’s religion in such situation.
In Christianity, based on the principle of a sin, it would be still a sin to lie, yes, even in that situation. Thus there is no Christian teaching that tells you can lie if your life is threatened.
We can only assume what would be the punishment of sin committed in such situation. In Catholicism, there are two types of sins, (1) Venial and (2) Mortal. The former will not result in total damnation while the latter does.
Will it be venial or mortal? Both have a definition of their own as to what they are.
It is safe to say that it should be left to the mercy of God. Of course, in reality, often times what one tell to one’s would be killer would make no difference whatsoever. In the end one would be killed anyway. Like how a hijacker would pick a person and just shoot him; maybe he is looking for a Christian. Would it be your life for your friend or his for yours? Many people feel guilty that they are spared instead of their friends; they would it rather be them instead of someone else dying for them.
Also many saints gladly gave their lives for the sake of their belief. They would not deny their God.
As for telling a spouse of committing adultery: An ideal marriage is of course is one where there is mutual trust. Adultery means that trust has been broken. The issue here would be to repair the marriage relationship. How would be best to do it by not committing further sin against God? That’s the issue a Christian marriage counselor would have to deal with.
In many cases, marriages can be healed but it takes time, love and the grace of God. Maybe when the time is appropriate, the couple would be more frank and confide with each other but the relationship has to be sufficiently repaired first. So it is complicated. You just cannot force an issue which may be detrimental to the marriage relationship, which does not solve it.
I just want to avoid complicating the issue that you want to address. What it looks like now, you are confusing Church’s teaching and what Catholics do. You gave the example of lying under duress e.g. being threatened by ISIS. And that a person should tell a spouse of his/her infidelity.
Okay then. Christian’s teaching on lying, as far as I know, differs from that of Islam.
There is no Christian’s teaching where lying is allowed while in Islam it is explicitly allowed as stated categorically both in the Quran and the Hadith albeit in certain situations. Hope that is clear enough.
Now you are talking about application. Up front, I think the principle of sin is that we cannot justify it so that it is not a sin anymore. Yes, a sin is a sin. Both lying and adultery are stated clearly even in the Ten Commandment. We cannot change that.
So what about if a Christian is captured by a terrorist, say ISIS, who would want to kill a Christian? Is it alright for that Christian to lie? In Islam, it is explicitly allowed to lie about one’s religion in such situation.
In Christianity, based on the principle of a sin, it would be still a sin to lie, yes, even in that situation. Thus there is no Christian teaching that tells you can lie if your life is threatened.
We can only assume what would be the punishment of sin committed in such situation. In Catholicism, there are two types of sins, (1) Venial and (2) Mortal. The former will not result in total damnation while the latter does.
Will it be venial or mortal? Both have a definition of their own as to what they are.
It is safe to say that it should be left to the mercy of God. Of course, in reality, often times what one tell to one’s would be killer would make no difference whatsoever. In the end one would be killed anyway. Like how a hijacker would pick a person and just shoot him; maybe he is looking for a Christian. Would it be your life for your friend or his for yours? Many people feel guilty that they are spared instead of their friends; they would it rather be them instead of someone else dying for them.
Also many saints gladly gave their lives for the sake of their belief. They would not deny their God.
As for telling a spouse of committing adultery: An ideal marriage is of course is one where there is mutual trust. Adultery means that trust has been broken. The issue here would be to repair the marriage relationship. How would be best to do it by not committing further sin against God? That’s the issue a Christian marriage counselor would have to deal with.
In many cases, marriages can be healed but it takes time, love and the grace of God. Maybe when the time is appropriate, the couple would be more frank and confide with each other but the relationship has to be sufficiently repaired first. So it is complicated. You just cannot force an issue which may be detrimental to the marriage relationship, which does not solve it.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Which to me would seem to be lacking if one party is going to cheat and then not tell the other party about it. If the other party finds out 10 years down the road, s/he is going to think, “Spouse lied about this, I wonder what else spouse lied to me about?”
I’m remembering a scene from a melodramatic TV movie starring Donna Reed several decades ago where the opening scene is that an older lady (played by Donna Reed) gets word that her beloved husband of many years has just dropped dead, then she finds out shortly after his death that he had been cheating on her for some time and she has an angry meltdown because the whole picture she had of her happy marriage was haywire in retrospect and seems like she was just kidding herself all along.
YMMV.
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Edward_H
Guest
I saw those posts too.
In the first case, it’s not true that to lie to ISIS about the location of some person would be lying. I know a very solid priest who is a specialist on ethics walk us through this. It’s actually an old “ethical dilemma” and it’s often couched in terms of Nazi’s looking for Jewish people hiding in attics.
ISIS is not “owed the truth” for what they’re trying to do: kill or torture. There is no offense against justice because they are not “owed” the truth given their pursuits.
A robber isn’t owed the truth about the combination of a lock!
On the marital infidelity question, I reacted as you did. And I am going to ask this same priest. I suspect he’s going to answer that one’s spouse is owed the truth about the infidelity.
I think that lie would actually add distance to the relationship and that would be problematic.
Very difficult issue, case by case basis, in consultation with a solid priest (not one of these loosey goosey priests one can occasionally run across).
In the first case, it’s not true that to lie to ISIS about the location of some person would be lying. I know a very solid priest who is a specialist on ethics walk us through this. It’s actually an old “ethical dilemma” and it’s often couched in terms of Nazi’s looking for Jewish people hiding in attics.
ISIS is not “owed the truth” for what they’re trying to do: kill or torture. There is no offense against justice because they are not “owed” the truth given their pursuits.
A robber isn’t owed the truth about the combination of a lock!
On the marital infidelity question, I reacted as you did. And I am going to ask this same priest. I suspect he’s going to answer that one’s spouse is owed the truth about the infidelity.
I think that lie would actually add distance to the relationship and that would be problematic.
Very difficult issue, case by case basis, in consultation with a solid priest (not one of these loosey goosey priests one can occasionally run across).
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Catholicwife32
Guest
Many Catholics are confused about what the Church actually teaches. A lot of this has to do with childhood Catechesis. The reality is that the Church’s teachings include a lot of abstraction that young minds aren’t capable of comprehending. And while there have been some efforts to water the teachings down entirely, there has been another effort to continue to cram theology not only into children’s minds but without teaching the philosophical background of theology and having volunteers with little understanding of the doctrines teach it.
The reality is that the Church judges the material nature of a sin independent from it’s subjective components. So, for instance, a natural disaster is considered evil in Catholicism even though there is no bad will behind it. Evil is the destruction or perversion of the good. Thus to judge the material nature, we have to ask ourselves if the action is destroying or perverting some good. We do not look at where the consequences are good or bad or whether our intentions are good or bad. We look at the actions themselves. That’s the first judgment.
Then there is the gravity of the situation. How evil is this action? What is the consequence of this action? What are my available choices?
Then there is culpability. Do I have ample enough time to know all my available choices? Do I fully understand all the choices and the full gravity of the action and the resulting consequences? What are my intentions?
Overall, the theology of it is a very dissected view of morality. It is helpful in theology, but in individual decision making, it isn’t useful. Generally speaking, we are not to rationalize doing evil so that good may come of it. But we have to be careful over our scrupulous tendency to do graver evils to avoid doing the evil’s we’re obsessively avoiding.
I think it’s wrong reasoning to focus on the idea that “if it’s not mortal, it’s venial.” Rather, it’s simply a doctrine that recognizes that there is an objective character to an action independent of the consequences and our intentions. It doesn’t change, and this refutes those who could claim that morality is merely a social construct, a thing that can’t be absolutely defined because it changes depending on the situation and culture. By dissecting the aspects of sin down like this we’re able to point to the objective absolute moral truth. This doesn’t negate the fact that our moral decisions have to go beyond looking at the objective material character of an action.
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boldlygo
Guest
We’re thinking along the same lines. One of the best-known parables of Jesus is that of the ‘Prodigal Son’…I’ll paraphrase…when the son comes to his senses, he returns home and says: “Father, I’ve sinned against God and against you…”
Marriage is a covenant relationship. Adultery is a sin against God and against the spouse.
Marriage is a covenant relationship. Adultery is a sin against God and against the spouse.
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Edward_H
Guest
I’ve been through the same school as a Marine.
I’d agree with you on most of your points, but not on your final point.
If it’s a matter of denying your faith to live, we cannot deny God, including our Catholicism…and that’s what a denial of faith would be. There’s no skirting around the issue.
Your duties as a Catholic in that case would supercede your duties as a service member of the US forces.
St Thomas More, pray for us.
I’d agree with you on most of your points, but not on your final point.
If it’s a matter of denying your faith to live, we cannot deny God, including our Catholicism…and that’s what a denial of faith would be. There’s no skirting around the issue.
Your duties as a Catholic in that case would supercede your duties as a service member of the US forces.
St Thomas More, pray for us.
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jfz178
Guest
I disagree. As a POW, you are playing a role, much like an undercover agent who is infiltrating a Mosque, and the people you are pretending to deny the faith to, as was said before, don’t have any right to ask the question or expect the truth. To me, it is not a true denial, but a justifiable ploy. I would never second guess a comrade for making such a decision.
I would go for guidance to the US Military Archdiocese.
I would go for guidance to the US Military Archdiocese.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I would think in a POW situation, the Lord would look kindly on those who make a decision based on their individual conscience and taking into account the mental state and intentions of the person and all other factors.
There is really no “right” answer in that type of extreme situation. To the extent some decision was “wrong”, the emotional stress alone would likely mitigate any sin that existed.
There is really no “right” answer in that type of extreme situation. To the extent some decision was “wrong”, the emotional stress alone would likely mitigate any sin that existed.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Sin of omission is seeing someone who is crying over in corner and not giving them a kind word, seeing that your mom needs help with dinner and just plopping in your chair - failure to do what charity compels us to do.Then,I see a different thread about infidelity in marriage and I am amazed to see many Catholics advising the poster that she should not tell her husband that she has cheated on him.
Now, if your spouse asks you “did you sleep with Joe Smith” and you answer “no”, that would be a lie. If your spouse asks you “were you ever unfaithful to me?” and you answer “if I have ever committed that sin, I have confessed it and repented and amended my life” that is not a lie.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
And your spouse is going to figure out in about 10 seconds that this is just a convoluted way of saying “yes, I was unfaithful to you at least once” because otherwise a person would just answer “No”.
Just tell your spouse already when they ask directly. They asked a simple question, they want a simple answer.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Not in Catholicism.
Satan is a liar and the father of lies. There can be no pious sin.
Christ has promised that there will never be a temptation to lie (repeated questions and pressure that violate your privacy, or nazis, or ISIS or even your wife asking “do I look fat in this dress”) where lying is the only choice you have. We will never be tempted to sin so that there is no means of escape. There is always a way to avoid lying. Scripture said it, I believe it.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
My husband likes some ghastly TV shows. On one they make knives and axes in some sort of competition, another where people pretend to drive around the nation randomly stopping at houses to buy things (thinking the viewer will not notice that the unsuspecting antiques owner is already wearing a mic). I loathe these sorts of shows.
He also has this horrid blue leather recliner. I hate recliners, they make a room look sloppy, do not fit my decor style, I would like to see that thing on fire in the yard.
I will sit on the sofa with him and watch those insipid TV shows and I asked only one time about getting rid of the recliner. I keep my opinions to myself.
Why? Because I love him, he is a good man, and if bad TV and ugly furniture are the price of having a good husband, I will gladly pay.
My marriage is not built on lies, it is built on mutual respect and part of that respect is if I can avoid hurting him, I will. Inflicting needless pain on your spouse is the opposite of charity.
He also has this horrid blue leather recliner. I hate recliners, they make a room look sloppy, do not fit my decor style, I would like to see that thing on fire in the yard.
I will sit on the sofa with him and watch those insipid TV shows and I asked only one time about getting rid of the recliner. I keep my opinions to myself.
Why? Because I love him, he is a good man, and if bad TV and ugly furniture are the price of having a good husband, I will gladly pay.
My marriage is not built on lies, it is built on mutual respect and part of that respect is if I can avoid hurting him, I will. Inflicting needless pain on your spouse is the opposite of charity.
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