Catholics and Lutherans seek communion agreement

[laszlo]

The problem (for the ministers) is similar with the Anglicans, and that is resolved recently. Married ministers are welcomed, homosexuals are not. This question (the ordination) is not negotiable for Catholic point of view.

As for the formation,(I have a cousin Calvinist minister, they learned together with the Lutherans) the Creed is the same , the Biblical studies are the same, the Sacramentology and Ecclesiology are different, easy to add the missing chapters.

As for the faith in the Eucharist, it is mystery, we hardly understand more than words only (I learned theology for six years); this is the point on which common work is needed.

I hope there will be some progress toward the unity

As a Lutheran PK (pastor’s kid), and also having attended a Jesuit High School - I think I may have a bit of an insight.

If I recall, the ELCA at one time allowed Catholics to partake Communion in their parishes. If that changed - I’m sorry. The biggest differences that I can remember between what is to be believed by Lutherans and Catholics about Holy Communion are:

1. Lutherans believe that the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ is “In, With, and Through” the bread/wafers and the wine.
2. Catholics believe that the bread/wafers and the wine are “transformed into the flesh and blood” of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It seems like its semantics, but in a true sense - Are the elements of the Holy Communion (that is, the bread and the wine) the body and blood of Our Savior?

I have always felt that to be a strange argument when we are to “Do this in remembrance of (Him).” We are to remember Him and His sacrifice for us. We are to eat of His “flesh” and drink His “blood” to bring us closer to Him, and quite literally take Him into our lives.

I agree that it would be impossible to allow the Lutheran clergy to become Catholic priests - for a myriad of reasons.

1. Celibacy, and chastity. The majority of Lutheran pastors are married, and therefore disqualified. Also - unfortunately - a large number of Lutheran pastors are openly practicing homosexuals. I know this because my father later in life came out as one, and I learned that there are hundreds more across the U.S.
2. The training and theological studies that they both undertook are vastly different. For instance, my father studied Theology under the Disciples of Christ church and he chose later to become a Lutheran pastor (partly because of the rampant homosexuality). As far as I know, Catholic priests can only attend a Catholic Divinity School. (Let me know if I’m wrong.)

Basically, until the question is resolved regarding what each Church’s teachings will be regarding the elements of Communion - there will never be a full exchange between both Catholics and Lutherans in this regard.

 

[JRKH]

For all the interesting discussion here lets keep one thing in mind as per the thread and linked article. The title of this thread is misleading as it relates to the article.
In the Article it is the Lutheran leader that makes the appeal. Pope Benedict makes no comment on it at all.
So Catholics and Lutherans are not seeking communion agreement - as the thread title states.
It may well be that this appeal from the Lutheran leadership is an invitation to discussion on the issues surrounding the Eucharist. If it is, the talks will likely be lengthy - testy and quite interesting. A successful conclusion to such talks could be the key step toward reunification since it would deal with so many related issues, especially since there has already been a joint declaration on justification.

Pray for the continued humility of those charged with such talks.

Peace
James

 

[Lutheranteach]

Lutheran pastors lack the ability to affect the change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, no matter what semantics you use. That ability was given to the Apostles, they passed it to their followers, and they passed it along within the catholic church, the church Jesus founded. When protestants split from the church, they lost that ability.

Also, communion means just that; you are IN communion with that church and what it teaches. If you do not agree with that church’s teaching, then you are not IN communion, and you shouldn’t be receiving in that church. Why would I, as a catholic, have ANY interest in going to a lutheran church that I don’t agree with and receiving their communion, which isn’t the body and blood of Christ (no matter what the argument is)? If I wanted to be lutheran I would join them and receive their communion. Likewise, any lutheran wishing to receive in a catholic church just needs to join the church and then they can receive. Because then they would be in agreement and in communion with the catholic church. If you don’t believe what catholics believe, why would you want to receive communion in that church?

And to take it a step further, what are you doing in a lutheran church if you’re catholic, and vice versa? If you’re catholic, go to mass. If you’re lutheran, go to your own church. I’m catholic and have no desire to attend a protestant service. And if for some reason I had to, I wouldn’t be receiving their communion.

You wanna be part of the catholic church? Join. You’re welcome to come home to Rome.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Lutheran pastors lack the ability to affect the change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, no matter what semantics you use. That ability was given to the Apostles, they passed it to their followers, and they passed it along within the catholic church, the church Jesus founded. When protestants split from the church, they lost that ability.

Also, communion means just that; you are IN communion with that church and what it teaches. If you do not agree with that church’s teaching, then you are not IN communion, and you shouldn’t be receiving in that church. Why would I, as a catholic, have ANY interest in going to a lutheran church that I don’t agree with and receiving their communion, which isn’t the body and blood of Christ (no matter what the argument is)? If I wanted to be lutheran I would join them and receive their communion. Likewise, any lutheran wishing to receive in a catholic church just needs to join the church and then they can receive. Because then they would be in agreement and in communion with the catholic church. If you don’t believe what catholics believe, why would you want to receive communion in that church?

And to take it a step further, what are you doing in a lutheran church if you’re catholic, and vice versa? If you’re catholic, go to mass. If you’re lutheran, go to your own church. I’m catholic and have no desire to attend a protestant service. And if for some reason I had to, I wouldn’t be receiving their communion.

You wanna be part of the catholic church? Join. You’re welcome to come home to Rome.

I don’t want to be part. Never have. Catholics are more than welcome to receive in an ELCA church (and a number do, especially when visiting family at Easter or Christmas, other almost weekly). In our bulletin it is stated every week

St. John’s is committed to Eucharistic hospitality. Admission to the Supper is by Christ’s invitation to all the baptized. In order to receive Holy Communion at St. John’s no other condition is required than that the guest is a communing member of his or her own church and that** he or she believes that the true body and blood of Christ are really present** in, with and under the bread and wine in Holy Communion. No guest is ever questioned or turned away–all who come to the altar desiring to be communed will be given the body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Such hospitality is also granted to ELCA Lutherans by UMC, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Morovians, Reformed Church in America, and UCC congregations.

 

[JRKH]

I don’t want to be part. Never have.

Part of what?

Catholics are more than welcome to receive in an ELCA church (and a number do, especially when visiting family at Easter or Christmas, other almost weekly). In our bulletin it is stated every week
St. John’s is committed to Eucharistic hospitality. Admission to the Supper is by Christ’s invitation to all the baptized. In order to receive Holy Communion at St. John’s no other condition is required than that the guest is a communing member of his or her own church and that** he or she believes that the true body and blood of Christ are really present** in, with and under the bread and wine in Holy Communion. No guest is ever questioned or turned away–all who come to the altar desiring to be communed will be given the body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Such hospitality is also granted to ELCA Lutherans by UMC, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Morovians, Reformed Church in America, and UCC congregations.

But you see, the Real Presence in a Lutheran communion violates Catholic belief. Therefore your kind and hospitable invitation is (from a Catholic perspective) an invitation to sin. An invitation to actively participate in heresy - in violation of the beliefs, teachings and instructions of the Catholic Church.
I recognize that you do not see it as sinful but there it is. The Catholic Church does not believe that Lutherans, or the other communities you mention, have a valid priesthood capable of confecting the Real Presence.
Until that changes, until this is resolved, no Catholic may receive communion at a protestant church.

Peace
James

 

[laszlo]

For all the interesting discussion here lets keep one thing in mind as per the thread and linked article. The title of this thread is misleading as it relates to the article.
In the Article it is the Lutheran leader that makes the appeal. Pope Benedict makes no comment on it at all.
So Catholics and Lutherans are not seeking communion agreement - as the thread title states.

Since the XXI Ecumenical council the Church lead by the popes constantly seeks such agreement. Thus far it failed, but the Church never reverted the effort.

 

[Brendan]

I don’t want to be part. Never have. Catholics are more than welcome to receive in an ELCA church (and a number do, especially when visiting family at Easter or Christmas, other almost weekly). In our bulletin it is stated every week

St. John’s is committed to Eucharistic hospitality. Admission to the Supper is by Christ’s invitation to all the baptized. In order to receive Holy Communion at St. John’s no other condition is required than that the guest is a communing member of his or her own church and that he or she believes that the true body and blood of Christ are really present in, with and under the bread and wine in Holy Communion. No guest is ever questioned or turned away–all who come to the altar desiring to be communed will be given the body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Such hospitality is also granted to ELCA Lutherans by UMC, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Morovians, Reformed Church in America, and UCC congregations.

That right there is why Catholics cannot partake of what is offered at a Lutheran service.

We simply do not belive that Christ is present “in, with and under” the substance of bread. Rather, the substance of bread and the substance of wine is gone! There is ONLY the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. There is nothing other than Christ to be 'in, with and under".

And we cannot offer Holy Communion to anyone who belives that they are recieving the substance of bread, with or without Christ.

For intercommunion to happen, the Lutherans in question would have to renounce their current understanding of “in, with and under” in favor of Transubstantiation. They would have to adopt a valid Eucharistic Canon ( prayer), and would have to seek out valid Apostolic Ordination. I don’t see that happening in the near future.

The Catholic Eucharist cannot be offered to anyone who believes otherwise.

 

[irishpatrick]

It would be awesome if Lutherans became Catholic.Yet, outside of that, how could there be any agreement regarding the reception of the Eucharist? If one does not believe, one should not receive.

The irony is, in the end all non-Catholic Christians will become Catholic, and really so will all people who are saved…

 

[mlund]

People have problems grasping the idea of visible and invisible realities. The visible physical composition of bread and wine do not change under transubstantiation. Nothing you could ever verify under a microscope or taste with your tongue has changed. The invisible substance of the offering does change. The meaning, value, and relationship to Almighty God of its substance has been irrevocably altered from that of bread and wine to that of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

Likewise when Jesus turned to John and Mary and told them that Mary would be John’s mother and John would be Mary’s son it did not change their DNA or the womb John was born from in years long past - nor was it a symbolic gesture. It transformed the invisible reality that bound them, by the Word of God. Any moral obligation that might invoke Judgment upon John for honoring his mother, for instance, applied to his treatment of Mary.

For a believer is there any reality or level of existence of greater consequence and truth than what is held to be true in the eyes of God?

• Marty Lund