Catholics and marriage licenses

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Leaving aside the personal criticisms, it is true that I do not get to decide who responds. I am however asking someone giving a non answer to a question respectfully asked to another poster to please refrain from doing so.

I have been respectful to all who have replied to me while stating my positions clearly. Any reasonable reading of this thread shows that…
If you feel you have been respectful to everyone posting here, you may want to have someone else start reading your posts and helping you with your tone in written communication. You are, as (name removed by moderator) has pointed out, frequently very passive-aggressive in your responses and often adopt a condescending manner when addressing others.

A forum is not a conversation between two people. It is the online or written equivalent of a large group of people standing together talking in a social setting. Simply because you responded to one person’s statement with a question does not mean there is any expectation - implied or otherwise - that all others will refrain from offering their opinions on your question.

Further, as your question was suggesting that the individual was stating facts that they had not stated, it was entirely appropriate for anyone who was familiar with the thread to speak up and correct your misunderstanding.
 
Well of course the obvious question is to show where I have not been respectful to posters, especially considering the abuse that has come the other way.

I suspect what people are calling a passive aggressive tone is standing up for myself and countering the abuse while at the same time being respectful. Perhaps I will humbly ask those making that criticism to apply it to themselves.

If I am thanking a poster for explaining the American tax system to me and asking for her to confirm that I understand her correctly, then if people are going to step in to give criticism for the sake of criticism, I am going to politely ask them to refrain from doing so. Obviously if I am being polite to the extent that I thank her and ask her to confirm that I understand her, this is not being passive aggressive, it is being polite and respectful.

For others to step in and implicitly accuse me of saying (or thinking) that I have the right to determine who replies on a thread is clearly incorrect. It is a criticism that can clearly be shown as incorrect from the reading of the thread.

What it looks like is that some people are stepping in to be abusive and they are not handling it very well that I am not being abusive back to them.
 
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IIRC you smacked my hand and told me to never reply to you on this board again, but, perhaps I mistook that and it was meant to be respectful ✌️
 
IIRC you smacked my hand and told me to never reply to you on this board again, but, perhaps I mistook that and it was meant to be respectful ✌️
I hope your hand is ok. 🙂

With respect I don’t like being called a little Christian anarchist by someone in their first post to me.

Perhaps after 6 or 7 posts it is ok. 🙂

Regards.
 
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Oh, wow.

I was replying to the question about how/if the sovereign state people could avoid taxes.

A marriage license is not likely to trigger a tax investigation.
 
So for example, the OP (and myself) feel this way and see no reason why the secular state needs to validate a religious wedding. We are exploring ways in which the state validation of marriage can be bypassed.
So, if I understand correctly, you and the OP want to find a way to circumvent the process of registering a marriage?
Which is protection for both parties, and any future children, and you want the Church to help you to circumvent these laws?

Registering a marriage is more about protecting all parties in the event something happens to one of the parties. This anti-government paranoia and the insistence that the church is wrong about this is just ridiculous.
 
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Oh, wow.

I was replying to the question about how/if the sovereign state people could avoid taxes.

A marriage license is not likely to trigger a tax investigation.
Thank you Kathleen.

Could you explain again to me why people would want to avoid a civil marriage licence in order to avoid taxes?
It looks like I didn’t fully understand you the first time around.

Regards.

P.S. Roma has already answered this question below. Thanks for your time and explanation.
 
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I am not Kathleen, but it really is quite simple.

In the US, taxes and many government benefits are tied to income.

If a couple decides to marry and one party is already receiving benefits of some sort, if the spouse’s income puts them over the threshold, the benefits cease.
This is why so many people “live together” instead of being married. They want to benefits of the relationship, without the legal status or the repercussions that come with it.
 
So, if I understand correctly, you and the OP want to find a way to circumvent the process of registering a marriage?

Which is protection for both parties, and any future children, and you want the Church to help you to circumvent these laws?

Registering a marriage is more about protecting all parties in the event something happens to one of the parties. This anti-government paranoia and the insistence that the church is wrong about this is just ridiculous.
Hello,

not quite. I am not wanting to circumvent any laws. much less ask the church to do so.

I am registering my agreement on looking into separating the need to have a secular civil marriage when one participates in the Catholic sacrament of marriage.

What Kathleen has advised is that in America a civil marriage certificate is needed first and that some people wish to avoid taxes by not wanting to have this but only a Catholic wedding. She rightly says that such an approach is asking the church to go against civil law which carries with it many undesired outcomes.

My perspective in Australia is that the civil marriage happens after the Catholic sacrament and that there are no tax considerations in whether one is married or not. From this perspective (and legal position) there is more room and reason to look in to the possibility of not having the secular marriage.

This would not be opposing the state but simply not registering the marriage following the practise of many secular people here. It looks like a different set up than is currently the case in America,

Regards.
 
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I am not Kathleen, but it really is quite simple.

In the US, taxes and many government benefits are tied to income.

If a couple decides to marry and one party is already receiving benefits of some sort, if the spouse’s income puts them over the threshold, the benefits cease.

This is why so many people “live together” instead of being married. They want to benefits of the relationship, without the legal status or the repercussions that come with it.
Thank you for the explanation. Here in Australia people living together is treated as a marriage so we do not have the same situation. If people live together for a few months and then ‘break up’ the parties can sue each other for property/future income. A little bit harsh if you ask me, but there it is.
 
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What Kathleen has advised is that in America a civil marriage certificate is needed first and that some people wish to avoid taxes by not wanting to have this but only a Catholic wedding. She rightly says that such an approach is asking the church to go against civil law which carries with it many undesired outcomes.
No, that isn’t what she has said. What she has explained, as have multiple others, is that the individuals who subscribe to this belief that they should not have to adhere to government regulations INCLUDING marriage licenses also claim that they are exempt from ALL tax obligations imposed by the state. Even when faced with a tax obligation, they will refuse to pay, claiming that the government has no right to impose such an obligation.

The avoidance of tax obligations is not linked directly to the marriage license. The license is simply the declaration from the state that there are no legal impediments to the marriage (consanguinity, previous undissolved marriages, coercion, etc).
 
Yes in an earlier post I mentioned that my understanding was that a civil marriage license in the United States was an indication that the person was ok with regards to having paid all their taxes. If someone wants to avoid paying taxes for any reason, including the belief they do not have to, then in America they will not be granted the marriage license with taxes owing.
 
I don’t believe this is a requirement for obtaining a marriage license. To obtain a marriage license you need only to prove that their are no impediments to your marriage (neither party is married, parties are of the age of consent, parties are not related, there are no issues of capacity, etc).

Again, refusing to obtain the marriage license itself isn’t a way to avoid taxes. It is simply part of a larger ideology that certain individuals hold wherein they believe they should not have to abide by laws merely because they don’t want to.
 
Yes in an earlier post I mentioned that my understanding was that a civil marriage license in the United States was an indication that the person was ok with regards to having paid all their taxes. If someone wants to avoid paying taxes for any reason, including the belief they do not have to, then in America they will not be granted the marriage license with taxes owing.
No. Even a felon can apply for a marriage license. Even someone with a warrent could apply.

One does not have to “pay up” taxes in order to get a marriage lisence.

There are two things you are trying to correlate.

First, is what the OP is hinting at which is the “sovereign citizen” cult (for lack of a better word). These people feel that they can extricate themselves from all legitimately owed taxes and do not get any documentation for their children so they cannot be traced by the state. These children, therefore, cannot participate in normative state activities like driving, getting a job and having a bank account because technically they do not exist. They cannot get a marriage license because they do not have a birth certificate–which–in most states that and $10 will get you a marriage license.

Second, is the fraud that a married couple could perpetrate on the state by living together as two tax-registered individuals rather than a married couple. The state allows tax breaks for those who are single and must maintain a household on their own. For instance, my friend with a child, who has an adult roommate who also has children, can file “head of household” and thus get a discount on what taxes she owes. Her roommate can do the same. Without combining their incomes they are also both eligible for social welfare benefits–although at this time both choose not to take them because having a roommate makes rent cheap enough they can afford groceries and heat.

Now, my husband and I, despite the fact that we look, on the surface, to be demographically similar (two adults + kids) cannot claim this deduction because we are married. If I did not have to combine my income with my husband’s and we each claimed X number of children I would get to be on every social welfare program there is, pay no tax etc. His income isn’t really all that high and while he would not be eligible for any welfare programs he would get more back in tax. In fact, if I claimed to pay rent to him, and charged him for “daycare” while keeping one of the children under my name, he could write off all that daycare expense, I’d not have enough income to pay tax on and we’d make out like bandits. To not be married would TOTALLY game the US system.

This is because the government RIGHTLY assumes that it is more difficult for a single parent than married ones.
 
I don’t believe this is a requirement for obtaining a marriage license. To obtain a marriage license you need only to prove that their are no impediments to your marriage (neither party is married, parties are of the age of consent, parties are not related, there are no issues of capacity, etc).

Again, refusing to obtain the marriage license itself isn’t a way to avoid taxes. It is simply part of a larger ideology that certain individuals hold wherein they believe they should not have to abide by laws merely because they don’t want to.
ok thank you, so if I am understanding you (forgive me if I am not) it is not specifically a tax issue (looking backwards) and the church would not be helping someone to avoid paying taxes by not insisting on a state marriage licence (looking backwards) but they need the licence to know that there are no other impediments (as you mentioned) so that the wedding would be valid.

Also as Roma has explained , in not having a state marriage licence the person could avoid taxes (looking forward) because they would be cheating on the tax threshold considerations?
 
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Correct. They would, however, be participating in a marriage which had not been declared free from impediment, and would thus be breaching their obligations as officiants.
 
ok thank you for your explanation and for bearing with me.
 
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Yes in an earlier post I mentioned that my understanding was that a civil marriage license in the United States was an indication that the person was ok with regards to having paid all their taxes.
And this understanding is not correct.

There is no link between getting a marriage license and taxes, paid or unpaid. There is no check or tax action triggered federally or at the state level with the application for or issuance of a marriage license.
 
Thank you 1ke, Cass has just suggested the same thing. Thank you both for the information.

Regards.
 
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