Catholics and marriage licenses

[ByWhatAuthority]

Please look up the definition of the word "license ". It means permission to do something that would otherwise be illegal!

Again, this is not about registration after but license to do or permission before the sacrament.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t understand the question? I only mentioned property taxes because I know my friends are exempt from paying them on their estate. They removed themselves from the incorporated US. That’s why their daughter is unable to apply for a state marriage license.

I haven’t read the other replies–but that is total nonsense. They may believe that that’s what they are doing, but they aren’t.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

abucs:

Also as Roma has explained , in not having a state marriage licence the person could avoid taxes (looking forward) because they would be cheating on the tax threshold considerations?

I don’t believe that’s the case at all. Here in the states if you are single you pay more then if you are married. There are tax credits for married people. Singles get hammered! I don’t know for sure though, maybe it works like that if you are really well off…??? Is it better to be single if you are rich??? Also, if you add kids to the mix you pay a lot less. My friends situation is in no way shape or form about cheating the system.

When it comes to families I’ve already twice posted how married couples get TONS less social benefits–including the inability to claim “head of household” that singles are privy to.

My friend, who has an unrelated, unromantic adult roomate (really housemate, they have separate bedrooms) both have children. They make MORE than my husband and I combined and pay FAR less tax than my husband and I do. Why? Because once you are raising a kid the government recognizes it’s hard to do alone.

Also. Google “Marriage penalty tax” The government isn’t innocent of making things harder for upper earners who are married. It is the general consensus that dual-income married earners are basically penalized.

 

[1ke]

kay, lets say you are all correct and she absolutely can get a marriage license. The fact of the matter is; She believes it is morally wrong for herself to ask the states permission/license to marry.

So now you are changing your story from “unable” to get a license to “don’t want to” get a license.

And she should not be forced to go against her conscience on this matter, by the church, imo.

Her malformed conscience needs work.

The Church isn’t forcing her to do anything. If she doesn’t want to get married according to the laws of the Church and the state she lives in, she is free to remain single.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

They are Catholics who attend, who’s families have attended mass and the sacraments in the same church for generations, who are very well known, if banns are posted and there are no objections…maybe hers is a special situation. But I would be happy if there was at least that kind of an option.
I think you are missing the point, it’s not about the church allowing the government to do investigations on couples. (Which I think is very silly) It’s about the church making it mandatory for couples to ask permission for a sacrament.

 

[1ke]

Again, this is not about registration after but license to do or permission before the sacrament.

Permission the Church has the authority to require. So by whose authority? The Pope’s, the supreme legislator of the Church. By the authority is the Keys, which bind us to do as we are bid through in the legitimate temporal authority of the Church. By her bishop who exercises the temporal authority in his diocese.

Who is the “good Catholic” here? Certainly not your friend.

 

[casslean]

If you are already married or siblings or under the age of consent it is illegal to get married!!! Not because you don’t have a license, but because it is illegal.

A marriage license is not the state “giving permission”; it is the state saying “we did all the search and it is not illegal for these people to get married”.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

So now you are changing your story from “unable” to get a license to “don’t want to” get a license

I don’t change anything. She believes she is unable to because of her political status. She also, as I do, believes it is wrong to have to ask the governments permission to marry.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

Its not canon law so I have a say! I’m not going against the infallible teaching of the church if I say Catholics should NOT have to ask permission from the government to marry!!!

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

They are Catholics who attend, who’s families have attended mass and the sacraments in the same church for generations, who are very well known, if banns are posted and there are no objections…maybe hers is a special situation. But I would be happy if there was at least that kind of an option.
I think you are missing the point, it’s not about the church allowing the government to do investigations on couples. (Which I think is very silly) It’s about the church making it mandatory for couples to ask permission for a sacrament.

The silliness is in this entire thread. You’ve aligned yourself with a bunch of people who are operating under the delusion that they run their own country.

Your friend is not special, your friend is not unique. She just has very incredibly selfish parents. Parents who are NOT acting as good Catholics because they are not following the law.

Baans are done a different way in a different country. Which is, if she can get a passport, I suggest she do. They are NOT the way you can do it in America. Then again, she doesn’t seem to be an American citizen, so what does that matter?

The church “makes it mandatory” so they don’t have to do the foot-work. The church has a need protect the sacraments. They give the authority to the state to do this basic “check” for them. No more, no less.

Note–the Catholic Church does NOT recognize a “marriage” that a Catholic undertakes under civil law. Why? Because the Church states that the marriage must be done in a church, by a priest after the proper documents are secured.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

Thanks but no thanks mr. Government. I don’t need the state to tell me if I’m legally allowed to receive a sacrament.

 

[Xantippe]

Her malformed conscience needs work.

She should talk to her pastor.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Thanks but no thanks mr. Government. I don’t need the state to tell me if I’m legally allowed to receive a sacrament.

Alrighty then. Are you going to pony up the $10-20k per couple (I’m averaging the cost of a private investigator which runs around 8-12k) it would take for the Church to ensure that they are dispensing the Sacrament to the right people?

EDIT: This is not an option but shows the ludicriousness of what you’re trying to propse happen.

 

[KathleenT]

It is the Church’s requirement.

You had a preist tell you not getting a license breaks Church law, and gave citations. He explained officiating a marriage without a license is a felony or misdemeanor in most states.

This whole thread people have given you good and valid reasons why the state license is important and is not subordinating the Church to the state.

Your response has largely been to say “La la la. I can’t hear you.”

Your conscience, your friend’s conscience HAS NO BEARING here. You disagree with the Church, fine. You would do things differently, fine.

So, I will give you one last possible solution. If everything is how you say, your friends are very powerful. I am sure they can go to the governor of the state and get a nice letter explaining the situation to present to their Bishop. There, situation solved.

 

[ByWhatAuthority]

so you want big brother to have to continue to do it? You sound like the one who wants to fleece the government. Making them flip the bill to investigate all those Catholic couples who want to receive a sacrament.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

so you want big brother to have to continue to do it? You sound like the one who wants to fleece the government. Making them flip the bill to investigate all those Catholic couples who want to receive a sacrament.

Big brother?

A marriage licence is, in most states

$5-$30
-Birth Certificate
-Photo id

By which the state runs a search, ensures both parties are free to marry and gives the couple a piece of paper that they give to the priest to sign. The government can easily access all the records it needs to to make a reasonable verification.

The church takes this information to ensure that the sacrament is respected and given validly.

It would be incredibly pricey for the church to do this kind of investigation themselves.

You seem to think that there should be NO protections on the Sacrament of marriage. Just walk into a Church, chat up a priest, promise you are who you say you are and walk out married.

Why do you continue to degrade and denigrate the sacrament as if it was no more than brushing your teeth? Should there really be no protections to ensure that it’s undertaken validly?

 

[1ke]

It not canon law so I have a say!

Yes it is canon law, and you can make your opinion known but must still obey canon law as it currently exists.

I’m not going against the infallible teaching of the church if I say Catholics should NOT have to ask permission from the government to marry!!!

I didn’t say you were. It is certainly within your rights to disagree and to suggest a change. It is not within your rights or hers to disobey Church Law or the legitimate authority of the Church. Your original post goes beyond simply stating your disagreement, you inquired for sources of priests who would disobey the law, both Church and civil.

Her recourse within the law of the Church is to apply to her bishop for a secret marriage and if denied, that’s it. Fini.

 

[Horton]

Thanks but no thanks mr. Government. I don’t need the state to tell me if I’m legally allowed to receive a sacrament.

Well finally we got past the whole “friend” thing. If you do not want to follow canon law then just go get married by some internet officiant. It is clear you don’t want a Catholic wedding nor a Catholic sacrament. Go to Vegas and stand before Elvis.

Your views of this issue are hugely distorted and no one except the Australian agrees with you. 367 posts that have done nothing as you can’t even be clear about what the issue is. I think it’s time this one was put to bed. It’s useless to continue.

 

[1ke]

Alrighty then. Are you going to pony up the $10-20k per couple (I’m averaging the cost of a private investigator which runs around 8-12k) it would take for the Church to ensure that they are dispensing the Sacrament to the right people?

You are overstating the marriage license process.

You walk in, fill out the form, show your ID, and pay your fee. My husband lived in another state, he didn’t even have to be present I just had to bring his ID with me to the license office. Some states require you have a blood test also, but most just require and ID and money. Boom, license issued. There is no search or background check. You just check boxes that say you aren’t related, already married, etc.

Whether banns must be published is left to the Episcopal Confenrence, if they are not the pastor is responsible for the premarital investigation. The license is not a substitute for banns.

 

[KathleenT]

I am not sure the Australian even agrees. I think he only went as far as to say he was sympathetic.