Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?

[dianaiad]

Actually, to claim the church fell into apostasy is to attack Christ’s scriptural promise to remain with His Church for all time. As for falling into apostasy - do you mean to say that the Mormon scriptures are part and parcel of the NT and the Bible as a whole? There is evidence from before 100 AD that this is so?

The question under discussion isn’t whether it is acceptable for us to believe that you fell into apostasy. The fact is, we do. Consider this: by the same token, you do not accept the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price or the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture. Therefore it would be highly inappropriate of us to quote them as proof texts to show why YOU must believe whatever doctrine is being illustrated; first, the sources of the prooftexts must be agreed on as authoritative by everybody.

Therefore, as long as the topic is not the apostasy itself, but something else (like whether Mary was a consecrated virgin) and you, the Catholic, are trying to convince me, the Mormon, that she was–you have to use sources that we both accept as valid. The same thing would go for me to convince you that proxy work for the dead is a valid concept. Since you do not accept any of our scripture or the writings of our leaders as authoritative for you, I am left with one small verse in the NT. I’m aware of that…and at least I have that.

I would appreciate it if you would acknowledge that this goes both ways; I am not a bit insulted that you don’t believe in the Book of Mormon, etc., You are a Catholic; of course you don’t. Using the same logic, given our claims and beliefs, you need to understand that we do not accept, as authoritative proof texts for us, those writings by Catholic church fathers that show up much after the death of the last apostles. We are both, then, pretty much stuck with the bible if we want to convince one another of the accuracy of one doctrine or the other.

So.

Do Catholics believe that Mary was a specific, Consecrated virgin? Kathleen says so, so at least one does. Do you? Fine—and you probably have stuff that confirms that idea. For you. The problem is, you have to show ME that this is so, from sources we BOTH accept, if you want to change my mind about the idea.

Catholic faith is based on scripture and tradition/the fathers as interpreted and authoritatively taught by the Church. If you don’t accept sola scriptura, as you yourself said, then why do you apply a sola scriptura standard to the Catholic faith?

I don’t. I have no problem with your getting doctrine from Tradition. The problem lies in that the Tradition you get your doctrine from is Tradition we do not accept as valid–for determining what WE believe. After all, how likely is it that you would accept a quote from the book of Moses as a reason YOU must accept the truth of some doctrine/idea?

That’s the problem with discussion between faiths; for prooftexting, only those things that both agree to be authoritative can be used to argue Truth.

…to explain what you believe and why? Quoting tradition is important then…but only to explain why you believe something, not why I must.

The contention of a 19th century sect that the Catholic Church apostatized and the true church only came back in the (surprise!) 19th century - is that even a serious position?

hmmn.

Let me think.

erm…

Why, yes, I do believe that it is. I’m certainly serious about it.

We Catholics have always said scripture and tradition understood by and in the Church is the “datum” of our faith - please do go ahead and take us at our word.

absolutely–for what you believe and why you believe it.

…but not for why WE have to.

If we had a sola scriptura position (and it can be argued that even the Protestants have always had their own tradition alongside that of scripture), then your argument would hold water. The experience of the perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary, her assumption et al. is based on the ongoing relationship the Christians at that time had with her and the Apostles. That was handed down in Tradition. We don’t see it as contradicting scripture, not one shred of scriptural evidence showing that it does has been produced here.

Once again, sola scriptura is without foundation in the Bible. The Mormon scriptures outside the Bible have no foundation in the Bible. The church’s authority and Christ’s promise to be with it always does have foundation in the Bible. The notion that Christ’s promise to be with His Church lasted only about 100 years after His resurrection is the true apostasy.

Alex

I’m aware of your opinion on this, Alex, and I certainly respect it. I see that you have absolutely no respect for mine, however. Please notice that I am not mocking YOUR faith.

 

[Todd520]

past tense refers to a verb. Until is a conjunction which meaning is only about a period of time. The verb is not past tense but Imperfect.

OK, my terminology may be off, but you get my meaning.
When Unitil is used to mark a past event, it signifies a change of state
**She was a virgin until her wedding night **

When Until is used to mark a future event, it may lead to a change of state.
She refused to date him 'until hell freezes over’

 

[ERose]

Let us look at the Annunciation verses in Luke Ch 1: *[26] And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, [27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. [28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. [29] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

[31] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. [33] And of his kingdom there shall be no end. [34] And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? [35] And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. *

One question I propose is this. Since Mary was married or about to be married to Joseph why would she raise this question? If the intention was to consacrate the marriage with Joseph, why would she ask this question? Wouldn’t she have assumed that the child was going to be Joseph’s and that the child that they were going to have would be the Messiah? Why would she ask that question? The answer is simple because she had no intention of ‘knowing’ a man and she had the intention of staying a Virgin.

 

[adrift]

Please provide a standarized dictionary that uses your unique definition. In every dictionary I have consulted, not one of them define until as a change that happens. All the definitions speak of a specified time.

and what about Matthew 28:20
I am with you always until the end of the age.
What do you say the change is?

.

I have never run into a case of the use of ‘until’ that did NOT signal a change of some sort. Feel free to find one…and I’ll show you what it is.

One thing…in the case of granny and the pills, the ‘change’ is a reassessment of whether she should take them; the event that ‘until’ refers to is directly related to the action taking place (or not taking place) before it. .
No matter how you see what until means it is not a standard definition.
But going along with your unusual definition, the change would be that Jesus was born and nothing else.

.

The problem, here, is that while one cannot assume that Mary DID have sex with Joseph after Jesus’ birth, there is nothing in the NT to let us know that she did not…and things like this ‘until’ statement, implying as it does an event that affects the action of Joseph ‘not knowing’ Mary, mitigates towards a change in that state…and there can be only one alternative to Joseph’s not knwoing her, after all.

You are incorrect that there is nothing in the New Testament. There is the way that Jesus relatives treated him which went against their culture. Mary is never Identified as anyone elses mother. Jesus provided for her care very much in tune with the culture but going against it if she had other children. Until does not mean what you want it to.

That’s a lot of meaning you got out of 'how can this be?" Kathleen. Most fourteen or fifteen year old girls, even today, ‘haven’t known’ a man. It doesn’t mean that they are officially consecrated virgins.

In the culture of that time, marriage was most often about the age of 15. Mary and Joseph were married. It is a strange question for a married woman which I have never seen logically explained.

 

[adrift]

One question I propose is this. Since Mary was married or about to be married to Joseph why would she raise this question? If the intention was to consacrate the marriage with Joseph, why would she ask this question? Wouldn’t she have assumed that the child was going to be Joseph’s and that the child that they were going to have would be the Messiah? Why would she ask that question? The answer is simple because she had no intention of ‘knowing’ a man and she had the intention of staying a Virgin.

Good questions. Before anyone jumps on that they were betrothed not married please don’t. Betrothal has a different meaning in that culture than it does today. You see this in Joseph wishing to “divorce” Mary privately.
Betrothal was the first part of the marriage. The woman would continue to live with her parents for about a year before the second part of the marriage which is the woman being taken into the house of her husband.
That is why in a dream Joseph is told

fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife

 

[adrift]

OK, my terminology may be off, but you get my meaning.
When Unitil is used to mark a past event, it signifies a change of state
**She was a virgin until her wedding night **

When Until is used to mark a future event, it may lead to a change of state.
She refused to date him 'until hell freezes over’

Fine but the sentence is not past tense:shrug: as the example you use is.

Until is a conjunction which has a meaning of a period of time.

I will ask you to provide a dictionary that states your definition.

 

[adrift]

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/until?show=1&t=1284067485

"def #2 until as conjunction
Definition of UNTIL
: up to the time that : up to such time as

Examples of UNTIL
We played until it got dark.
Keep going until I tell you to stop.
I ran until I was breathless.
Stay here until the danger has passed.
Stir the dough until it forms a ball."

You did say that ‘until’ was a conjunction in Matthew 1:25, didn’t you? Look at the example. What is implied in each? A change afterwards, correct?

What does the definition state. Does it state that there is a change afterwards? Would you highlight where it does that. All I see is up to the time that something happens nothing about afterwards.

 

[Todd520]

What does the definition state. Does it state that there is a change afterwards? Would you highlight where it does that. All I see is up to the time that something happens nothing about afterwards.

Ohh, stop playing the fool!
Every example has shown a change in state

If you want to argue this point, your only hope is to claim the translation was cocked up and it really says something like

• “Mary remained a virgin upto and after the birth of Christ”
• "Mary remained a virgin until her death and assumption into heaven)

 

[Dokimas]

What does the definition state. Does it state that there is a change afterwards? Would you highlight where it does that. All I see is up to the time that something happens nothing about afterwards.

Examples of UNTIL
We played until it got dark. - implication: dark came; couldn’t see; stopped playing.
Keep going until I tell you to stop. - “Stop”; so the person stopped.
I ran until I was breathless. Ran until ‘ran’ out of breath; no breath; stopped running.
Stay here until the danger has passed. - Danger gone; time to leave (or possible)
Stir the dough until it forms a ball." Ball formed; stopped stirring

 

[dianaiad]

Let us look at the Annunciation verses in Luke Ch 1: *[26] And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, [27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. [28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. [29] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

[31] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. [33] And of his kingdom there shall be no end. [34] And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?* [35] And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

One question I propose is this. Since Mary was married or about to be married to Joseph why would she raise this question? If the intention was to consacrate the marriage with Joseph, why would she ask this question? Wouldn’t she have assumed that the child was going to be Joseph’s and that the child that they were going to have would be the Messiah? Why would she ask that question? The answer is simple because she had no intention of ‘knowing’ a man and she had the intention of staying a Virgin.

Actually, it seems that Mary and Joseph were in what is known as Kiddushin: a state that is the first stage of marriage, where the woman stays in her home and the man builds/finds a home for them both. According to “Judaism 101,” , this state required ONE of the following: a gift of money, a contract, or sexual intercourse. While all three are usually done, only one is required…and in the case of very young women, only the contract/gift of money was used. It would not have been a bit unusual for Mary to have remained a virgin while in her parent’s home, given how young she was.

I found out something when I was researching this…it speaks to a point made earlier, about 'what if Joseph was too old for sex?"

It seems, according to Jewish law, that this would have been a big problem. Sex in marriage is not the right of the man, but of the woman; HE has no right to demand sex of his wife, but SHE has the right to demand it of him…and thus the man must be able to provide it. Hence, if Joseph was too old, or incapable, the marraige would not have taken place.

I thought that was interesting. I’m not sure which position this bit of information supports, though!

 

[adrift]

Examples of UNTIL
We played until it got dark. - implication: dark came; couldn’t see; stopped playing.
Keep going until I tell you to stop. - “Stop”; so the person stopped.
I ran until I was breathless. Ran until ‘ran’ out of breath; no breath; stopped running.
Stay here until the danger has passed. - Danger gone; time to leave (or possible)
Stir the dough until it forms a ball." Ball formed; stopped stirring

Sorry you can give all the examples you want but you still cannot get a dictionary to define it the same way.
Each example is a period of time. The defintion says up to a point in time
Each of your examples is about a period of time nothing more.

Ohh, stop playing the fool!
Every example has shown a change in state

If you want to argue this point, your only hope is to claim the translation was cocked up and it really says something like

• “Mary remained a virgin upto and after the birth of Christ”
• "Mary remained a virgin until her death and assumption into heaven)

EVERY EXAMPLE? Where does Matthew 1:25.
Like I have stated stop using examples and show me a definition that supports you.

BTW I am gladly a fool for Christ. You want me to change my argument because… You can’t answer. O.K. but you really should abandon yours since you can’t defend it.

 

[Catholic20064]

This entire discussion has made me wonder if I just shouldn’t ask to be rebaptized Mormon again … the arguments for a dogmatic view of Mary’s perpetual virginity seem to be really half-baked.

 

[Todd520]

Sorry you can give all the examples you want but you still cannot get a dictionary to define it the same way.

Like I have stated stop using examples and show me a definition that supports you.

BTW I am gladly a fool for Christ. You want me to change my argument because… You can’t answer. O.K. but you really should abandon yours since you can’t defend it.

There is a difference between a regular fool, and a Fool For Christ (FFC). I’m an FFC.

I care about meaning in a sentence, and that’s why looking up UNTIL will yield lots of examples of usage, not drawn out definitions and rules on usage.

Every example I’ve seen of Until used with a past event, supports my postion,

 

[adrift]

There is a difference between a regular fool, and a Fool For Christ (FFC). I’m an FFC.

I care about meaning in a sentence, and that’s why looking up UNTIL will yield lots of examples of usage, not drawn out definitions and rules on usage.

Every example I’ve seen of Until used with a past event, supports my position,

The usage of Until in the passage we are discussing is not in the past so you are presenting a position that is not relevant.

 

[dianaiad]

Sorry you can give all the examples you want but you still cannot get a dictionary to define it the same way.
Each example is a period of time. The defintion says up to a point in time
Each of your examples is about a period of time nothing more.

EVERY EXAMPLE? Where does Matthew 1:25.
Like I have stated stop using examples and show me a definition that supports you.

BTW I am gladly a fool for Christ. You want me to change my argument because… You can’t answer. O.K. but you really should abandon yours since you can’t defend it.

From the English Oxford Dictionary: 'until" "Up to (a point or limit): as far as: so as to reach…
"Up to (a given number);
…Onward til (a time specified or indicated); up to the time of (an action, occurrence, etc.)
“before”
“Up to the time that: till the point or degree when…”

All of which definitions absolutely declare an event or boundary that applies to the action being discussed: you do THIS unti THAT occurs, at which time a change happens.

If you do (or don’t do) something until a certain time or event, it is because at the occurance of that time or event there is a change in the course of action being taken (or not taken.)

You remain still until someone tells you to move.
You remain still until the bell rings.
You wander the hills until you find what you were looking for.
…or to use some of the examples from the OED, you 'rub down very poor cheese with water until [it is] of the consistency of cream"

“Syr Gareth rode soo longe in that forest vntyl the nyghte came”
“…a silly wench, who has heard stories of apparitions until she believes them” (Walpole, Castle of Otranto…anybody who has read that thing knows how ironic this sentence is…)
“The time is not long, vuntll thou must trust him with a far greater matter.”
“One tale is good vntill another’s told.”
“Often they will…not move until almost trodden on”

Or, from Shakespeare: "As doubtfull whether what I see be true, Vntill confirm’s, sign’d, ratified by you. "

Every single use of “until” requires this; an action…which is carried up to a point of interuption, then bounded by a change. “Until” that time, one is this, and after that time, one is…that.

 

[Todd520]

The usage of Until in the passage we are discussing is not in the past so you are presenting a position that is not relevant.

silly boy, Matthew 1:25 was written after Jesus died, written about what happened before he was born - How could it not be discussing the past?

But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus

 

[adrift]

From the English Oxford Dictionary: 'until" "Up to (a point or limit): as far as: so as to reach…
"Up to (a given number);
…Onward til (a time specified or indicated); up to the time of (an action, occurrence, etc.)
“before”
“Up to the time that: till the point or degree when…”

QUOTE]

So you can’t find a dictionary that upholds the definition that until show a change. The definition you present is precisely the one that I have been expounding. Your definition supports me.

You didn’t tell me the change in Matthew 28:20
I am with you always until the end of the world.
So what will happen after the end of the world? What change will happen? If I folllow what your say it must mean that He won’t be with us anymore.

 

[adrift]

silly boy, Matthew 1:25 was written after Jesus died, written about what happened before he was born - How could it not be discussing the past?

Oh dear boy you are the one who is being silly. The verb is not past tense. Matthew was not intending to write anything more than Mary was a virgin. Now if you were to say that until neither proves nor disproves her eternal virginity you would be right. Nothing can really be proven from this verse either way :
As I said previously

Matthew does not say this. What Matthew does say is that Joseph wanted to divorce Mary but this course of action was circumvented by an angel of the Lord in a dream. All that Matthew asserts is that Mary was a virgin before Jesus was born. Matthew does not claim anything after Jesus was born. This is not the only evidence. Mary asks a strange question for a married woman. How can I become pregnant since I do not have sex? Never in scripture is anyone said to be the son of Mary except Jesus. Jesus provides for her care an action unnecessary if there were other children.
The ark could not be touched. That was holy. Mary carried Jesus who is God and man how could any mere man than touch her?

 

[nickybr38]

Let us look at the Annunciation verses in Luke Ch 1: *[26] And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, [27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. [28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. [29] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

[31] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. [33] And of his kingdom there shall be no end. [34] And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?* [35] And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

One question I propose is this. Since Mary was married or about to be married to Joseph why would she raise this question? If the intention was to consacrate the marriage with Joseph, why would she ask this question? Wouldn’t she have assumed that the child was going to be Joseph’s and that the child that they were going to have would be the Messiah? Why would she ask that question? The answer is simple because she had no intention of ‘knowing’ a man and she had the intention of staying a Virgin.

Game. Set. Match.

This was kind of great. I had NEVER thought of that before but you’re absolutely making a great point here.

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad;7050620:

From the English Oxford Dictionary: 'until" "Up to (a point or limit): as far as: so as to reach…
"Up to (a given number);
…Onward til (a time specified or indicated); up to the time of (an action, occurrence, etc.)
“before”
“Up to the time that: till the point or degree when…”

QUOTE]

So you can’t find a dictionary that upholds the definition that until show a change. The definition you present is precisely the one that I have been expounding. Your definition supports me.

You didn’t tell me the change in Matthew 28:20
I am with you always until the end of the world.
So what will happen after the end of the world? What change will happen? If I folllow what your say it must mean that He won’t be with us anymore.

Y’know, taking something as completely out of context as you just have is really dumb, when the context you are removing the quote from is immediately above it. What happened to the rest of the post you are quoting from, m’friend?

As to 'what will happen after the end of the world?" Are you serious? Having the world end isn’t a change? What, you think that the world is going to end and everybody will miss it?