Catholics Are More Progressive Than The Vatican, And Almost Everyone Else

[Della]

That is hard to do in view of your earlier point number 4:
“3. American Catholics want to “fit into” the general culture–to be mainstreamed. The desire to be a success and not be considered “odd” has a lot to do with this.”

This really needs to change my leadership or it will change by demographic forces, i.e. Catholics that want to blend with the mainstream culture will lose their faith or fail to pass it down in any meaningful form to the children and grandchildren. The only ones left after several generations will be Catholics who do not want to ‘mainstream’ into our degenerate society.

It’s true that once people think that Church teaching is going to change–to allow them to have their cake and eat it too, it’s going to be hard to get them to accept the truth. It’s going to take generations to amend the situation, as I stated. It’s not impossible–it’s just hard. As my mother always told me when I had a difficult chore to do, “It’s better to start right now so you’ll have it done sooner rather than later.” The correction has to start now.

I believe the Synod will be the catalyst that will get peoples’ allegiances sorted out, because they are going to have to make a choice to stay with the Church or to leave when they see they aren’t going to get what they want.

 

[edwest2]

That is hard to do in view of your earlier point number 4:
“3. American Catholics want to “fit into” the general culture–to be mainstreamed. The desire to be a success and not be considered “odd” has a lot to do with this.”

This really needs to change my leadership or it will change by demographic forces, i.e. Catholics that want to blend with the mainstream culture will lose their faith or fail to pass it down in any meaningful form to the children and grandchildren. The only ones left after several generations will be Catholics who do not want to ‘mainstream’ into our degenerate society.

Read the Bible and you will see that no matter how bad things got that God always left a faithful remnant. That remnant exists today. I don’t mainstream into anything. Sure, I’m tempted but I can see the devil in what the media offers. I refuse to buy, watch or listen to a lot of things, although I will look at these things from time to time and you know what? It keeps getting worse and worse, worse and worse.

The local newspaper promotes gay marriage, a newsweekly is promoting euthanasia and one of the top TV shows is about death, blood and gore. This shall pass. Have faith, my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Have hope.

ncregister.com/daily-news/benedicts-men-u.s.-vocations-strengthen-during-his-eight-year-papacy/

Peace,
Ed

 

[RGCheek]

Can’t live in a fish bowl…can’t work in a fishbowl…

What does that have to do with what I said?

People work in ‘fishbowls’ metaphorically all the time.

But in the case of those who insulate themselves from a sinful and degenerate world they are the folks who don’t do the office parties, don’t do much more than take care fo their own and mind their own business.

How is that living in a fishbowl if that is even what you meant?

 

[Julianna]

What does that have to do with what I said?

People work in ‘fishbowls’ metaphorically all the time.

But in the case of those who insulate themselves from a sinful and degenerate world they are the folks who don’t do the office parties, don’t do much more than take care fo their own and mind their own business.

How is that living in a fishbowl if that is even what you meant?

We have a few at the office. They are just private people. No talk about shielding themselves from possible office debauchery. Office parties are usually Christmas or when someone retires. Alcohol is not involved.

How does one shop…hire an agent to purchase a home…a car…see a movie…attend a town festival. … geez louise…do you hide from everything. …is the human race that bad one has to live in cave? Have you ever been to a Catholic wedding reception or Irish wake?

If you found out your co-worker is gay would you quit? If your new boss was gay would you quit? None of this matters. You keep talking isolationist living… you know you can be in this world and not of it.

 

[edwest2]

We have a few at the office. They are just private people. No talk about shielding themselves from possible office debauchery. Office parties are usually Christmas or when someone retires. Alcohol is not involved.

How does one shop…hire an agent to purchase a home…a car…see a movie…attend a town festival. … geez louise…do you hide from everything. …is the human race that bad one has to live in cave? Have you ever been to a Catholic wedding reception or Irish wake?

If you found out your co-worker is gay would you quit? If your new boss was gay would you quit? None of this matters. You keep talking isolationist living… you know you can be in this world and not of it.

The issue is the fake word progressive. Progress toward evil and away from the Church. At the great turning point in 1968 and the 5 year plan that followed, this is what leftists, anarchists and Hippies wanted - radical individualism, which Pope Benedict warned against.

Most of what “America” is doing is 99.9% of what I’m not doing. I really want to like everyone but if others insist that I conform to many of the current ideas of degenerate progress - I won’t. I’m a sinner and only the Church can be relied on.

I will not participate in degenerate events or read degeneracy or listen to degeneracy. And that matters. I will not give my support to degenerate living.

Peace,
Ed

 

[YoungTradCath]

There has been no “official English translation” of the document to my knowledge.

Can’t tell if joking?

heheheheh

 

[Julianna]

The issue is the fake word progressive. Progress toward evil and away from the Church. At the great turning point in 1968 and the 5 year plan that followed, this is what leftists, anarchists and Hippies wanted - radical individualism, which Pope Benedict warned against.

Most of what “America” is doing is 99.9% of what I’m not doing. I really want to like everyone but if others insist that I conform to many of the current ideas of degenerate progress - I won’t. I’m a sinner and only the Church can be relied on.

I will not participate in degenerate events or read degeneracy or listen to degeneracy. And that matters. I will not give my support to degenerate living.ain’t America great? You have the freedom to do that

Peace,
Ed

 

[Usige]

Gee I wonder why? Oh yeah, Bishops and Priests are…dare I say…are HUMAN. When I was little in the early 60’s and even for my dad who grew up in the 40’s…If Father so and so or Bishop so and so, said it, then it was true and not to be questioned.

When the scandal broke, and even before that…(the priest that refused to marry my parents in '56 because my mother was a Protestant…took off with one of the married women in the parish…2 yrs later…go figure).

The scandal was blamed on the homosexual agenda. Really? I don’t recall call gay pride parades in the 40’s and 50’s…

It is one thing to be an authority, it’s another to be a hypocrite.

Uh… okay. So there were priests that were hypocrites so no one should trust any of them in spiritual or moral maters??? How many doctors, teachers, etc. have been hypocrites? Should I say I should never go to any surgeon because a handful of surgeons have molested patients while they were anesthetized? Should we consider none of them authorities because a small number of them aren’t perfect?

I agree poor catechesis is a big issue. Solutions and resolutions are the order of the day. Not finger pointing or bringing down the entire felt industry. One cannot put the “hammer down” now that the horse has left the barn.

I truly believe Pope Francis is on the right track.

Oh, both of the priests in my parish have started to address the issues. After his comments about felt banners he said that he and the rest of the clergy were to blame. A week or two later he started a parish wide catechetical program and has started to reform the RE programs. Homilies now include regular catechesis including both what and why the teaching exists. This also means that neither of them are afraid to talk about sin and how sin in not compatible with loving God.

Result: some have left because they find the teachings too hard. In some cases they don’t like the Church contradicting the non-catholic ideologies they are teaching their children. He said he struggles with losing some, but he is entrusted with leading them to God and cannot water down the faith because some feel uncomfortable. He likens it to John 6:60-68 where many of the disciples left him after the Bread of Life discourse. Just as Jesus did not soften his message about eating the flesh of the Son of Man he will no longer tuck the hard teachings away. As he said, there are 2 or 3 generations of Catholics that don’t even know the basics of their faith. He is doing what he can to fix that issue.

And just a side note he includes social justice teachings in his homilies also (just for those that want to denounce him as a hard liner that doesn’t care about the poor)

 

[FollowChrist34]

I believe these are some of the factors involved:

1. Catholics like to think of themselves as compassionate–witnessed by the many religious who quite rightly marched for civil rights in the 60’s. Unfortuntely, much of this compassion has devolved into mere sentimentality, so that anyone who sobs must have a cause worth supporting.

2. Poor catechesis over the last generation. We haven’t been taught basic morality over the last 40 years. It was all love, love, love to the negation of anything else, such as truth.

1. American Catholics want to “fit into” the general culture–to be mainstreamed. The desire to be a success and not be considered “odd” has a lot to do with this.
2. The American Church has become unwieldy and fractured into factions all wanting to control American Catholics’ opinions and behavior.

5. Many who want to ditch Church teaching took over high ranking lay positions, working in the dioceses to push their agenda. They’ve done a good job for orthodox Catholics were marginalized in the onrush to “modernize” the Church.
6. The sex abuse scandal unsettled many who feel if the leadership can be so unsure and unreliable, then they have every right to do what they think best without regard to Church teaching.

1. The changes in leadership at the Vatican has pulled people one way and now seemingly another. People feel like everything is up for grabs.

I predict that when the Church finally restates what it has always taught about same sex marriage, divorce and remarriage, and who can receive communion a lot of people will leave in disgust and confusion. Our pastors need to tell people the truth, especially now. There is no more time for obfusticating or side-stepping by those who simply cannot bring themselves to “hurt” people by telling them what’s what. All this could have been avoided if our leadership had spoken clearly about morality over the last generation. This is the sad result of not doing so.

This is a great list. I bolded the ones I think are the most critical. The lack of catechesis in post Vatican II Western Catholicism is jaw-dropping. Remember the Protestants are split ten thousand different directions, but you can loosely divide them into “liberal” and “conservative.” The liberal Protestant Churches are “dying” which means that more people are leaving than joining. The conservative ones are also undergoing some upheaval. Prosperity gospel is pulling a number of people from the more conservative Evangelical Churches. Actively gay friendly Evangelical Churches (still a huge minority) are clashing with the more widespread, traditional variety. But one thing still stands, the “conservative” and “liberal” Protestant Churches teach the Bible. Protestants know it very well. They all know what their Church teaches, from the ELCA and Episcopalians to the Southern Baptists. They choose the Church that agrees with their values. **Nobody gets confused about what their Church believes; that is why they are there and why they stay. It feels to me like the Catholics are 180 degrees from that, much, much more so in terms of doctrine, but frankly also sometimes Scripture. Catholics stay in the Church for emotional and cultural reasons along with commitment to the Christian faith. In fact, in the modern US Catholic Church, it takes an incredible amount of personal initiative and dedication to learn Church teaching if you have not received it growing up. And we actually have the truth. Crazy. I still cannot understand how this happened, but I believe this is the cause of most of the damage. And I do fear what would happen if they actually did start really teaching doctrine. You would have an exodus. Do you think that is why they don’t? Another part of that could well be that not all clergy are that hyped up about doctrine. It’s a widespread weakness.

 

[1newcatholic]

**I hope my CAF neighbors don’t read more into what I have written. I agree with much of this post, except I think it is applicable to all Catholics, and not just one side of the ideological horizon.

Much of these sweeping generalizations could be used to paint both traditionalist and progressive Catholics.

We really need to look inside, and dialogue rather than argue, with our brothers and sisters in the faith. We are all the one Body of Christ; the ONE holy and apostolic Church!**

I really appreciated your point by point rebuttal, that said things in a much kinder way than I probably would have.

One point I would like to add to the general conversation is this: we should be very careful when we assert that there can never be any kind of ‘change’ to what the church teaches.

Before Vatican II, there were good Catholics who said the same thing. After Vatican II many of the same Catholics abandoned the church because they believed that change and error had indeed crept into the church.

“Doctrine cannot change” is a standard maxim, but when we put the saying under the microscope, it falls apart, because–what IS “change?”

Usually when we say “doctrine can’t change,” we really mean that the core truth of the gospel will not change, and that is good and right and true. But some people take “doctrine can’t change” to mean that the way doctrine is formulated, expressed, taught, or implemented can never change, either–which is false. As our understanding of doctrine evolves with our collective experiences, we often come to see new possibilities and directions that we had not before considered–such as Chaput’s recent suggestion that we decouple civil and sacramental marriage. That is a potential “change” to the way sacramental doctrine is applied, and it is only one recent example.

Telling people that change can never happen is setting them up for disappointment.

Great conversation taking place here, thanks for letting me be a part–I joined the Catholic Church, in part, because I realized that the Church was not the backwards conservative sinkhole that I had been led to think. The Catholic Church has a bright future, and I feel blessed to be a part of the Church.

 

[Yeoman]

I believe these are some of the factors involved:

1. Catholics like to think of themselves as compassionate–witnessed by the many religious who quite rightly marched for civil rights in the 60’s. Unfortuntely, much of this compassion has devolved into mere sentimentality, so that anyone who sobs must have a cause worth supporting.
2. Poor catechesis over the last generation. We haven’t been taught basic morality over the last 40 years. It was all love, love, love to the negation of anything else, such as truth.
3. American Catholics want to “fit into” the general culture–to be mainstreamed. The desire to be a success and not be considered “odd” has a lot to do with this.
4. The American Church has become unwieldy and fractured into factions all wanting to control American Catholics’ opinions and behavior.
5. Many who want to ditch Church teaching took over high ranking lay positions, working in the dioceses to push their agenda. They’ve done a good job for orthodox Catholics were marginalized in the onrush to “modernize” the Church.
6. The sex abuse scandal unsettled many who feel if the leadership can be so unsure and unreliable, then they have every right to do what they think best without regard to Church teaching.
7. The changes in leadership at the Vatican has pulled people one way and now seemingly another. People feel like everything is up for grabs.

I predict that when the Church finally restates what it has always taught about same sex marriage, divorce and remarriage, and who can receive communion a lot of people will leave in disgust and confusion. Our pastors need to tell people the truth, especially now. There is no more time for obfusticating or side-stepping by those who simply cannot bring themselves to “hurt” people by telling them what’s what. All this could have been avoided if our leadership had spoken clearly about morality over the last generation. This is the sad result of not doing so.

Added to this, there’s a generation of “liberal” Catholics that are still quite active in some American parishes. They came of age in the late 60s and 70s, and they have had quite an influence in some areas. They’re aging out, but they have had and are still having an impact.

And, there are a lot of people who are Catholic but not really terribly active Catholics. In my work place I am one of two practicing Catholics, but there are six other people who were baptized as Catholics and at least three of them will occasionally refer to themselves as Catholic. One is very active in a Protestant church but is trying to find his way back to the Catholic church. One considers himself a Catholic but is from Europe, married to an American, and attends a Protestant church. The others all claim a loose connection to the Catholic church in some form, but very rarely, or never, attend Mass. But to the Press, chances are that at least some of these people would be considered in the same category as those who attend Mass daily.

 

[Yeoman]

I’d agree that the factors you list all contribute to the survey results, but I think the second factor about lack of catechesis is a huge part of the problem.

Our pastor was recently talking about how he had to learn the answers in the Baltimore Catechism when he was growing up, now kids in RE learn how to make felt banners. When right and wrong are discussed it seems to be done in the abstract and often couched in language as to not offend anyone. My general perception is that the Catholic position is taught as the best of many possible right answers.

I think one of the other things is the deemphasis on the clergy as having any authority in our lives. The Church in either the person of the bishop or priest is seen in an advisory role and not as an authority.

I agree, although I’d note that catechesis, at least by my observation, is really improving. Young Catholics here are much more Catholic than a couple of preceding generations were. And they self identify as Catholics.

The poor catechesis of the 70s has really hurt us, as an entire generation or two of Catholics grew up with no real understanding of their faith and no concept that it was really different from the Protestant church down the block.

And also we were really hurt by Catholic politicians when we came “of age” in the early 60s. Americans got over their fear of Catholics in high office, but at the same time we really bought off on the idea that a person could be Catholic at home while being “American” at the office, including the Oval office. Once we felt that Catholic morals were solely internal it wasn’t a stretch to view them as optional.

 

[ProVobis]

There has been no “official English translation” of the document to my knowledge.

I’ve often wondered who exactly decides on its being “official” anyway.

 

[Yeoman]

I
Do I think people who have different inclinations can’t have successful careers teaching or writing literature or anything else they set their minds to do? Sure go for it! I don’t see the big deal with that.

There’s absolutely no big deal with that. A person’s gender attraction would have no influence on their other talents or abilities, nor should it be a block towards allowing them to use their talents.

I will note here, however, that now, ironically, we may have created a situation in which sincere Catholics, Orthodox, Mormons and others might now be precluded by conscience from occupying some professions. I posted a thread on this up in vocations, but now we do have the question of whether those employed as clerks in offices issuing marriage licenses, or Judges who are asked to perform civil marriages, etc, may now have to decline to perform their civil offices in some circumstances on moral grounds, in which case they won’t occupy those positions for long. I’m not absolutely certain on that, but it’s a question that a person in such a position at least must pose to themselves. So, a movement that started off in the name of tolerance, and evolved into once demanding full social acceptance, now may result in the exclusion of sincerely religious people from certain offices.

 

[PTL]

“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared.” (1 Timothy 4:1-2)

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." (Matthew 7:15)

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings…” (Hebrews 13:8-9)

 

[PTL]

Neofight, thank you for your insights. I only want to make clear that I do not categorize “traditionalist” who will not accept VII as “orthodox.” Many on the far “right” are just as wrong-headed as those on the far “left.” Also, many traditionalist of the diehard kind have already left the Church to form their own various sects. **Progressives have, by and large, tried to change the Church from within. ** Their agenda cannot be ignored nor really put on the same level as traditionalist who have little to no voice in diocesan matters. Social issues are important, of course, as I cited in my post, but they cannot be used as an excuse to set aside Church teachings, as so many want to do. All issues have their place, but sin is still sin–that cannot be altered or amended.

You are right on. It is unbelievable that some cardinals want to call sin not sin. This is truly the end time.

 

[Budeux]

**I hope my CAF neighbors don’t read more into what I have written. I agree with much of this post, except I think it is applicable to all Catholics, and not just one side of the ideological horizon.

Much of these sweeping generalizations could be used to paint both traditionalist and progressive Catholics.

We really need to look inside, and dialogue rather than argue, with our brothers and sisters in the faith. We are all the one Body of Christ; the ONE holy and apostolic Church!**

Neofight…Just such a good post you have written! I feel like one of those Catholics stuck in the middle…not a PiusX member…and not a far left progressive either! I pray to Pope St.John XXlll daily for guidance. He is my hero that I have gone to for many years. Pope Francis is doing a super job and he is guided by the Holy Spirit for sure. Sending love and light…

 

[Joe_5859]

Can’t tell if joking?

heheheheh

No, I wasn’t joking. On the Vatican website where is postedRelatio, it says right at the top that it is an “Unofficial translation.”

Maybe I’m misreading what the excerpt from the article is referring to by “official English translation.” For some reason, I’m not able to open the link in the OP to read the whole article.

 

[GangGreen]

I question how many of these “Catholics” who were surveyed are actually Catholic. People who go to church regularly (weekly or more), have a good prayer life, and do their best to live according to what the Church teaches. You know… actual Catholics. If you asked those people, the results would be much different. There are plenty of people who live pretty much as atheists who call themselves Catholic.

 

[ProVobis]

I question how many of these “Catholics” who were surveyed are actually Catholic. People who go to church regularly (weekly or more), have a good prayer life, and do their best to live according to what the Church teaches. You know… actual Catholics. If you asked those people, the results would be much different. There are plenty of people who live pretty much as atheists who call themselves Catholic.

Unfortunately they are not measured that way. If you’re baptized a Catholic, then you are one of the 1.2 billion the Vatican calls Catholic. If you’re a convert from another Christian denomination, I believe you’re counted too. Here it’s generally done by choice, though.