Catholics, Born Again?

[Linkowski]

From the Word of God:

Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear.”

Link-

All the seed germinated. But not all bore fruit.

Do all the Billy Graham “decisions for Christ” become mature Christians?

No, and you, to your credit, acknowledge this. Jesus told us in advance about this shortfall in the harvest, however.

Sin in the Catholic Church is not the scandal that it is in a Protestant congregation. We see the Church as a hospital for the sick and not as a private refuge from the world for the saints.

Nobody in this parable gives the evidences of salvation except for the last person, the one who bore fruit with perseverance. Again…all of the evidences in 1 John, The “Whosoever is born of God” verses can only be traced back to the fourth person in the parable of the sower. You cannot call the others born again in light of other areas of scripture that give evidence of rebirth.

 

[InLight247]

I just read this thread for the first time and actually many posters have already answered OP’s question. Especially what TNT posted - John 3:5 - in answering the question of “born again” from Nicodemus, Jesus said “Amen, amen, I say to you,** no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit**.” Isn’t the answer from our Lord clearly enough? Through baptism - in water and by receiving the Holy Spirit, we are born again. It could not be more clear than that.

I am sure OP knows when one is baptized in water, the Holy Spirit enter into us. Therefore, when we are baptized - through water and Spirit, we are born again.
Simply Biblical.

 

[Linkowski]

I just read this thread for the first time and actually many posters have already answered OP’s question. Especially what TNT posted - John 3:5 - in answering the question of “born again” from Nicodemus, Jesus said “Amen, amen, I say to you,** no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit**.” Isn’t the answer from our Lord clearly enough? Through baptism - in water and by receiving the Holy Spirit, we are born again. It could not be more clear than that.

I am sure OP knows when one is baptized in water, the Holy Spirit enter into us. Therefore, when we are baptized - through water and Spirit, we are born again.
Simply Biblical.

That is, if in fact, this is referring to water baptism…in 1 Peter 1:23…it says we are born again by the Word of God…

1 Peter 1:23 KJV 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The word is looked at in scripture as water and as cleansing…

John 15:3 KJV 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Psalms 119:9 KJV 9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

Ephesians 5:26 KJV 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Reception of the Holy Spirit prior to baptism??

Acts 10:43-47 KJV 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins…47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ephesians 1:13 KJV 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

John 7:39 KJV 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Galatians 3:2 KJV 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

My original posting still has not been answered yet…there is a problem that is clear.

 

[Bishopite]

We are told in Catholcism that Catholics are, indeed, born again. When? At Baptism! From the “Are Catholics Born Again??” tract on the Catholic Answers site, we are told…

• When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being “born again.”

So, this means that all of those in the Catholic Church are born again. I think we would agree there. As a Protestant, I will not say that every person that walks an aisle, says the sinners prayer, raises their hand, fills out a decision slip - or is even baptized is born again…make sure you remember this remark in responding to my inquiry. Now…we need to look into the book of first John for the marks of one who has been born of God…

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Please understand, this scripture and others like it are not insinuating that a person can get to a point that they never sin. This simply takes on the idea of practicing sin regularly…enjoying it…wallowing in it…non-repentant.

OK - moving on…

1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}

1John 5:4 For **whatsoever is born of God **overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1John 5:18 We know that **whosoever is born of God **sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

1John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

NOW…if all Catholics are born of God/born again at baptism…why do we have many that are spirtually dead and in some cases, wicked?? Please answer this question.

Remember my point above…As a Protestant, I will not say that every person that walks an aisle, says the sinners prayer, raises their hand, fills out a decision slip is born again

Thank you.

The answer to your question is FREE WILL. You did mention that Catholicism’s theology says that one is born again at baptism, but failed to mention that baptism is our initial justification whereby sanctifying grace is given to us, John 3:5, Titus 3:5. Justification is a process not a one-time punctiliar only act (unless one dies on their death bed I suppose). Therefore, after baptism we still retain concupiscience (the tendency to sin) and after our baptism we can still commit actual sin by our own free will and through our own volition and since justfication is a process, we can still sin our way to hell.
We have free will, so even though we received sanctifying grace after baptism doesn’t make baptism a sure road to salvation for we can still freely choose to follow Christ or to not.

 

[Linkowski]

The answer to your question is FREE WILL. You did mention that Catholicism’s theology says that one is born again at baptism, but failed to mention that baptism is our initial justification whereby sanctifying grace is given to us, John 3:5, Titus 3:5. Justification is a process not a one-time punctiliar only act (unless one dies on their death bed I suppose). Therefore, after baptism we still retain concupiscience (the tendency to sin) and after our baptism we can still commit actual sin by our own free will and through our own volition and since justfication is a process, we can still sin our way to hell.
We have free will, so even though we received sanctifying grace after baptism doesn’t make baptism a sure road to salvation for we can still freely choose to follow Christ or to not.

Justification is a past event…

1 Corinthians 6:11 NAS95 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Romans 5:1 NAS95 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Not a process - a legal declaration declaring the sinner righteous - it is a status - NOT GUILTY.

This is supported by scriptures like Romans 7:1-6

Romans 7:1-6 NAS95 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Just as the woman was loosed from the law of her husband - and could not be called an adultress…we die to the law and cannot be charged with sin…Therefore…

Romans 8:1 NAS95 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:33 NAS95 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

At the rebirth we are perfected not for a short time - but forever…

Hebrews 10:14 KJV 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Washed…

John 13:8-10 KJV 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

We are not in our sins anymore…married to Christ and dead to the law…

1 Corinthians 15:17 KJV 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

But those that are in Christ are not in their sins…they are freed from the law and it’s penalty since they are in Christ. Justification is past tense and that interpretation meshes well with scripture…

John 5:24 KJV 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[guanophore]

My original posting still has not been answered yet…there is a problem that is clear.

Perhaps you did not like, or agree with the answer? It seems so simple. A baptized Christian can choose to live according to the Spirit, or to be led by the flesh, or the devil.

 

[Linkowski]

Perhaps you did not like, or agree with the answer? It seems so simple. A baptized Christian can choose to live according to the Spirit, or to be led by the flesh, or the devil.

Only those who are sons of God are led by the Spirit. I guess that means that if they are not led by the Spirit, they are not sons of God…

Romans 8:14 KJV 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Galatians 5:24 KJV 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
1 John 5:4 KJV 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

The world - the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, the pride of life…walking in the Spirit is an evidence of salvation and not a means.

 

[guanophore]

The world - the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, the pride of life…walking in the Spirit is an evidence of salvation and not a means.

Well, I am glad that we can finally agree upon that!

 

[El_camino]

Only those who are sons of God are led by the Spirit. I guess that means that if they are not led by the Spirit, they are not sons of God…

Romans 8:14 KJV 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Galatians 5:24 KJV 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
1 John 5:4 KJV 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

The world - the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, the pride of life…walking in the Spirit is an evidence of salvation and not a means.

I agree with this in part… I agree that if you are the son of God, the spirit will lead you and inspire you, but also the SPIRIT will also guide you and inspire you IF you are to become the Son of God.

The Spirit leads those who are to become sons of God to have faith, accept the Gospel and be baptized so that they may enter God’s Grace and become Sons of God.

Faith in general is the door through which we enter Grace (Rom 5:2) and become sons of God, as Faith is the first fruit of the Spirit. That is why it says “Saved by Grace through Faith” (Eph 2:8). But that faith again, must be inspired by the Spirit to be saving faith. So, as we can see the Spirit MUST inspire you even before you become a son of God, so that you may become the Son of God.

By the same token, there are many who are INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit to come to Christ, but they RESIST that spirit.

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

Blessings,

E.C.

 

[Bishopite]

[Linkowski;2007251]Justification is a past event…

False. Why do you so faciley only see and present one side of the Biblical issue I’m not sure. You take one side and completely ignore the obvious Sciptures that affirm justification is not a one time only punciliar event that we are being saved and will be saved. You’ve posted the verses that say we are saved, sure Catholicsm agrees, yet why ingore the Bible when it speaks of the present and future tense of being saved?

Phil 2:12- work out your salvation with fear and trembling
1 Peter 1:9- as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation

"Salvation has many components:

1. saved by grace – Rom. 3:23,24; Titus 2:11; Eph 2:5,8
2. saved by faith – Acts 16:31; Eph. 2:8; I Peter 1:9
3. saved by confession – Rom. 10:10; I John 1:9; James 5:16
4. saved by repentance – Luke 13:3; II Cor. 7:10; II Peter 3:9
5. saved by baptism – Mark 16:16; John 3:5; I Peter 3:21
6. saved by the Holy Ghost – John 3:5; Rom. 8:9; Eph. 1:13,14
7. saved by endurance – II Tim. 2:10; James 1:12; Heb. 3:6. Mt 10:22, 24:13
   C. Salvation is a process:
   1. we have been saved, “According to his mercy he saved us” (Titus 3:5), and “{God} has saved us and called us to a holy life” (2 Tim 1:9),
   2. we are being saved, “For by grace are ye saved” (Eph 2:8), and “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phi 2:12),
   3. we shall be saved, “much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life” (Rom 5:10) and “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” (I Tim 4:16).
   God only gives this final salvation if we continue in him (Rom 11:22; Col 1:23; I John 2:24,25). Ralph Reynolds gives this illustration:
   When were the children of Israel saved? At the night of the Passover after the blood was applied, while the death angel passed over, they were saved. Yet they were not yet saved. They were saved when they crossed the Red Sea and the armies of Pharaoh were destroyed. Yet they were not yet saved. They were saved when they were led by the cloud in the wilderness. Yet they were not yet saved. Many were never saved for they never entered the Promised Land."
   apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/process.htm

 

[El_camino]

Linskowski:

Justification is a past event…

NOT always…

" . . . for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;" (Romans 2:13)

“Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” (Romans 3:20)

Commenting on the second of these passages, the famous Protestant exegete, James D.G. Dunn points out that Paul’s statement alludes to Psalm 142:2 and then remarks,

"The metaphor in the psalm is of a servant being called to account before his master, but in the context here [in Romans] the imagery of final judgement is to the fore . . . Against the view that Paul sees ‘justification’ simply as an act which marks the beginning of a believer’s life, as a believer, here is a further example [in addition to 2:13] of the verb used for a final verdict, not excluding the idea of the final verdict at the end of life . . . "

MARTIN LUTHER himself wrote:

“For we understand that a man who is justified is not already righteous, but moving toward righteousness.”

and

“Our justification is not yet complete . . . . It is still under construction. It shall, however, be completed in the resurrection of the dead.”

Perhaps I may suggest some reading so that you may see the Catholic position on the present, past and future aspects of salvation:

cin.org/users/james/files/pastpres.htm

Read carefully how the bible clearly shows that Abraham was justified AT LEAST three times!

blessings,

E.C.

 

[El_camino]

Bishopite,

What a coincidence that the very same tiny phrase stroke a chord on both of us!

We posted almost a the same time. So you had not seen my contribution and I had not seen yours, but we happened to picked out the very same little phrase.

Blessings,

E.C.

 

[Bishopite]

If I am a person who is inquiring about this matter in the sense that it is one of the major hurdles for me in returning to the Catholic Church…no one has addressed this issue to a degree that would come at all close to my satisfaction. In fact, most have ignored this serious problem between Catholic teaching and the staements in 1 John and elsewhere. Anymore help besides this?

What about 1 John?

Also in Hebrews and James Abraham is mentioned as being the OT figure of how salvation is attained; both in the Protestant camp where they assert Abraham is an important Biblical figure in how we are saved.
Protestants say he was justified in Genesis 15:6.
But the problem for Protestants is Abraham wasn’t strictly justified in Genesis 15:6.
Do you believe he was?

 

[Bishopite]

Bishopite,

What a coincidence that the very same tiny phrase stroke a chord on both of us!

We posted almost a the same time. So you had not seen my contribution and I had not seen yours, but we happened to picked out the very same little phrase.

Blessings,

E.C.

That’s because I copied you…no just kidding. It’s because we don’t look at the Scriptures with an a priori lense but take it as a cohesive whole.
Salvation as you have correctly posted has a past, present, and future dimension. Abraham, touted as the example of how one is saved by Protestants needs to be examined on how and when he was justified or “saved” and it isn’t the Protestant idea.

 

[Cat]

I don’t think any of us have a right to label someone as “wicked” or “fallen away.”

We only see the outside, and yes, it is often stained with sin, at least in our human assessment.

But God sees the heart. He alone knows the heart of a human. And He alone knows His “friends.”

My father is an example. He says he is a Christians, but swears and makes remarks that many would call “bigoted.”

But he is the first man in our city to rent an east-side home to a black family, in spite of receiving death threats. (This happened years ago, back in the 1960s.) And he is generous to the poor, visits the sick, and kind to widows and orphans.

Will God save him? I believe from the Bible that God is more likely to save him than someone who never swears or never says something politically incorrect, but does nothing to help the minorities, the poor, and the forgotten.

That Christian who seems most reprobate could be the one closest to God’s heart. King David was an abominable example of a godly man–poor husband and father, violent, impetuous, adulterous. But God honored him as a “man after his own heart.”

We simply cannot judge the mind of God. It is a very dangerous thing to assume that someone has fallen away. We need to pray for our own souls and for our fellow Christians.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Justification is a past event…

1 Corinthians 6:11 NAS95 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Romans 5:1 NAS95 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Justification is an ongoing process

In Genesis, we read: “Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.” (Genesis 15:6)

Commenting on this passage, the Apostle Paul wrote:

“What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ “ (Romans 4:1-3)

If justification is a one-time event as many Protestants claim it to be, then Abraham could not receive justification either before or after this event in Genesis 15:6. However, the Bible states he did both.

First, consider this passage:

“By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.” (Hebrews 11:8)

The subject of Hebrews 11 is saving faith as can be seen from the opening verses: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.” (Hebrews 11:1-2) One is not commended for one’s faith unless it is saving faith. Therefore, the faith that Abraham is commended for in Hebrews 11:8 must be saving faith. But when did Abraham have this saving faith? It was “when called to go to a place he would later receive” and he “obeyed and went”.

The problem for the once-for-all view of justification is that the call of Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4, three chapters before he is justified in Genesis 15:6. From this, we see that Abraham was justified before, years before, he was justified in Genesis 16:6.

But that’s not all. James tells us:

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.” (James 2:21-23 KJV)

The account of the testing of Abraham is found in Genesis 22 which is well after Genesis 15:6.

We see, therefore, that Abraham was justified on at least three different occasions: Genesis 12, when he left Haran in faith; in Genesis 15, when he believed God’s promise concerning his descendants; and in Genesis 22, when he offered his son, Isaac, on the altar. As a result, justification must be seen, not as a once-for-all event, but as a process that continues throughout the believer’s life.

*Adapted from *The Salvation Controversy by James Akin.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Justification as a future event

“We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!” (Galatians 2:15-17)

 

[InLight247]

That is, if in fact, this is referring to water baptism…

So you agree with what Jesus said when one is baptized in water one is born again. Actually there is no way you don’t agree. Who can disagree what our Lord said in black and white? That answers the question that we Catholics are born again in water baptism.

Then you asked if so why there are many Catholics don’t live out the Gospel life.

My original posting still has not been answered yet…there is a problem that is clear.

Actually, many posters have answered your question if you read carefully. Instead of throwing in many new Bible quotes, if you focus on your original question and read carefully, it has been answered. The bottom line is all human beings have the fallen nature. Being baptized or born again does not mean a person becomes a finished product. That is exactly why we Catholics continue to work on our virtues. One poster said we repeat our born again experience. I think that is pointing to continuing to die to sin and live in Christ. You mentioned the word of God.
By reading the word of God and follow our Lord’s teaching, we continue our transformation.

According to your Protestant’s definition of born again, there are also many of them after the conversion experience, fall back to their old selves. It is not about Catholic or Protestant, it is the fallen human nature.

If not arguing for arguing’s sake, you will agree that your questions have been answered.

 

[Zooey]

I started this thread and then had NO time to take part in it later until now - about 24 hours later…anyway…This does not answer the problem and it is clearly this problem…

1. Catholic are born again at baptism
2. Therefore…all Catholics are born again
3. 1 John gives characteristics of the born again (as presented at the beginning of the thread)
4. Many Catholics fall well short of these characteristics
5. Therefore - the rebirth must not happen when Catholics are baptized.

So, why is there this discrepancy?

:tsktsk: Pish tosh!! You’re talking :whacky: .

And here you are quoting from your bible, right Linkowski?

So, would you please post your scriptural sources for these?

Thanks

:newidea: I know this one!!! It’s the Epistle of Linkowski to the CAFfians. Chapter 1, verse 1: Remember thou that Link is always right.

You are upset because I showed you that your interpretations were incorrect. If we all could sit together with the Bible in our hands - face to face - we would see very clearly who is lying. I promise you that.

Nah, we’re upset because this is getting :yawn: .

The only discrepancy is in your theology, Linkowski. If you believe OSAS, then it will not make sense that people can lose the gift of justification by rejecting it through a lifestyle contrary to Jesus’ commandments. For Catholics, it is a seamless garment. A born again (baptized) person has an obligation to build upon that justification by obedience. There is a lot more on this in the “Works Salvation” thread right now. The flaw in your reasoning is that it is up to the individual to “bear fruit that befits repentance”. Granted, t his cannot happen without the Holy Spirit, but a person has an obligation to cooperate. Otherwise, by refusing to cooperate with the HOly Spirit, they crucify the son of God afresh, and sin against the Holy Spirit.

I just read this thread for the first time and actually many posters have already answered OP’s question. Especially what TNT posted - John 3:5 - in answering the question of “born again” from Nicodemus, Jesus said “Amen, amen, I say to you,** no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water** and Spirit.” Isn’t the answer from our Lord clearly enough? Through baptism - in water and by receiving the Holy Spirit, we are born again. It could not be more clear than that.

I am sure OP knows when one is baptized in water, the Holy Spirit enter into us. Therefore, when we are baptized - through water and Spirit, we are born again.
Simply Biblical.

That is, if in fact, this is referring to water baptism…in 1 Peter 1:23…it says we are born again by the Word of God…

1 Peter 1:23 KJV 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The word is looked at in scripture as water and as cleansing…

Ephesians 5:26 KJV 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Reception of the Holy Spirit prior to baptism??

Acts 10:43-47 KJV 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins…47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

My original posting still has not been answered yet…there is a problem that is clear.

:doh2:Asked & answered, asked & answered, asked & answered, asked & answered, ad infinitum, ad nauseum…

 

[guanophore]

So you agree with what Jesus said when one is baptized in water one is born again. Actually there is no way you don’t agree. Who can disagree what our Lord said in black and white? That answers the question that we Catholics are born again in water baptism.

Then you asked if so why there are many Catholics don’t live out the Gospel life.

Actually, many posters have answered your question if you read carefully. Instead of throwing in many new Bible quotes, if you focus on your original question and read carefully, it has been answered. The bottom line is all human beings have the fallen nature. Being baptized or born again does not mean a person becomes a finished product. That is exactly why we Catholics continue to work on our virtues. One poster said we repeat our born again experience. I think that is pointing to continuing to die to sin and live in Christ. You mentioned the word of God.
By reading the word of God and follow our Lord’s teaching, we continue our transformation.

According to your Protestant’s definition of born again, there are also many of them after the conversion experience, fall back to their old selves. It is not about Catholic or Protestant, it is the fallen human nature.

If not arguing for arguing’s sake, you will agree that your questions have been answered.

Well said, InLight. After baptism, at which time we are justified and regenerated, comes the putting on of "the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. " Col 3:10-11

I am confused about the OP, getting so hung up on this point. Is there a desire to avoid the obligation to put on the new nature? I thought something to the contrary had been said…