Catholics Can Be Pro-Choice?

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Ridgerunner said:
I hate to be repititious, but probably the best discourse I have ever read on what toleration of disregard for human life does to a society, was Solzhenitsyn’s “Gulag Archipelago”. I am not learned in much of anything, but as I have often said to others, most of the knowledge I do have of psychology is from literature.

It’s a long read (three big volumes) and one sometimes wonders if what he’s saying comes to a point somewhere. But he always does, and it’s staggering when things suddenly “fall together”. If you have not read it, I think you will always be glad of it if you do. It’s as perfect a study of totalitarianism, the socialist impulse, elitism, and the creeping spiritual fossilization that accompanies state sanctioning of personal evil. Some credit (I think rightly) his work for the ultimate downfall of the Soviet Union. I am inclined to include him with Pope JPII, Lech Walesa, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher as those who brought it to an end.

But you know, just because the Soviet system ended, all of its progeny all over the world did not go away. Not even in the U.S. Its influence, and the influence of those who influenced it, stretches far into the future, and in more than one way. We still have all of the socialist fellow travelers, particularly in Europe. We still have a viciously intolerant left; one that one suspects would haul a good number of us off to Gulags if it could manage it. Some of the libs in here are entirely correct in asserting that there are governmental people in the U.S. who would be jailed in Europe if some of those countries caught them. Yet, the tolerance for Castro, Chavez and the Chinese Communists who make the family pay for the execution bullet of their loved one, is pervasive, because they’re “progressive”. Political tolerance of those who disagree is not one of the virtues of the secular progressive faction. We have that utilitarian disregard for the sanctity of the human person in which even many Catholics question whether an innocent life should be ended in order to avoid a woman’s having to carry a child for nine months. It’s a “personal matter”, so many say. Well, sure it is. It’s also a matter of the life of another person, but somehow our society has come to accept that the latter is less important than the former. It truly does put me to mind of the mental process by which most Soviet citizens came to accept the arrests and executions they knew were happening. The greater the acceptance of something is, the greater it becomes, and the greater becomes the tolerance of worse and worse things. “Well, they probably did something” people told themselves, knowing full well the victim probably didn’t.

So pervasive did it become in Solzhenitsyn’s world that he found himself shocked to see the contrast between his fellow Soviet citizens and “foreign” people, e.g., Lithuanians and Poles that were dragged into the Gulags from societies that had not become so corrupted.

And despite it all, those who succumbed to “creeping corruption” as Solzhenitsyn sometimes called it, thought of themselves as being quite good people.
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Yes – Communists and socialists intend to do good. But in the end, their systems collapse into poverty-stricken dictatorships.
 
tonyg said:
If a person is pro choice, that person is exercising their freedom to choose; this is a grace from God. Unfortunately that choice is also a Mortal Sin. To choose death is against everything that our God has laid out for us in the Ten Commandments.” Thou shall not kill,” are God’s words; we either choose to obey them, or not to obey them; the choice is ours; so are the consequences.
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We catholics and christians misunderstand the 5th commandment.There is a great difference between to kill, and to murder. The correct translation of the 5th commandment is “thou shalt not murder”. To kill is an act of defending oneself form harm or attack from another or an enemy that seeks to harm or murder you. To murder is to put to death someone for no reason or reasons that are unjust.I felt much guilt, because as a soldier I had to kill my enemy. I often thought that I violated the 5th commandment, but I did not, because my actions were justified. There is no such thing as pro-choice. God made the body, not man or woman, so we do not have authority to destroy life, even at its earliest stage. You can choose to abort the baby, but it is not God’s will that you do so.We have free will, but that free will must distinguish right from wrong. It angers me, when I see the likes senators Kennedy, Kerry and others that are supposedly catholics, say they are pro-choice or for abortion and a woman’s right to choose.My wife and I have had 8 children, even though we wanted them, and even though we tried to be carefull in avoiding pregnancy, so that there would be a proper span of time before giving birth to more children. We felt and believed that it was God’s will that we had the children as we did, and we fell one short of our desire and wish to have 9, which also was God’s will. There has been no blessing greater than having our children, and the happiness bestowed upon us through them. People tend to try and phrase things with words so that they do not show indications of sin.There is no greater blessing or honor than to give birth, but in the state of marriage.
 
Dusan said:
We catholics and christians misunderstand the 5th commandment.There is a great difference between to kill, and to murder. The correct translation of the 5th commandment is “thou shalt not murder”. To kill is an act of defending oneself form harm or attack from another or an enemy that seeks to harm or murder you. To murder is to put to death someone for no reason or reasons that are unjust.I felt much guilt, because as a soldier I had to kill my enemy. I often thought that I violated the 5th commandment, but I did not, because my actions were justified. There is no such thing as pro-choice. God made the body, not man or woman, so we do not have authority to destroy life, even at its earliest stage. You can choose to abort the baby, but it is not God’s will that you do so.We have free will, but that free will must distinguish right from wrong. It angers me, when I see the likes senators Kennedy, Kerry and others that are supposedly catholics, say they are pro-choice or for abortion and a woman’s right to choose.My wife and I have had 8 children, even though we wanted them, and even though we tried to be carefull in avoiding pregnancy, so that there would be a proper span of time before giving birth to more children. We felt and believed that it was God’s will that we had the children as we did, and we fell one short of our desire and wish to have 9, which also was God’s will. There has been no blessing greater than having our children, and the happiness bestowed upon us through them. People tend to try and phrase things with words so that they do not show indications of sin.There is no greater blessing or honor than to give birth, but in the state of marriage.
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There is no greater blessing or honor than to give birth, but in the state of marriage.
What a idealistic concept. If you choose to have 100 children it’s your CHOICE.
It’s easy to condemn others isn’t it? When parents sexually abuse and impregnate their own children then what? Are they forced to carry the next pregnancy to term?
How many “Pro-life” people have actually worked with children who have been sexually abused by their own parents? What anger me is the self-righteous,head in the clouds people who live in a fantasy world. I have recently worked with an 11 yr old girl who was abused by her own parents. Both parents. She terminated the pregnancy by a court order. She is suffering. Most of us can’t imagine such horror. Pray for her! At least she had a choice!
 
sosayi1960 said:
What a idealistic concept. If you choose to have 100 children it’s your CHOICE.
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No its, not, rather this is impossible.
It’s easy to condemn others isn’t it?
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Only condemning the act of killing innocent people here.
When parents sexually abuse and impregnate their own children then what? Are they forced to carry the next pregnancy to term?
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Strawman. Irregardless, innocent blood need not be shed, as this is where others are truly being condemned. The innocent being put to death for someone elses crime. Interesting how you mention pro-lifers being the ones to condemn others.
How many “Pro-life” people have actually worked with children who have been sexually abused by their own parents?
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Why do you doubt there are very many?
What anger me is the self-righteous,head in the clouds people who live in a fantasy world.
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Not self-righteous, but having concern for others, namely the unborn.
I have recently worked with an 11 yr old girl who was abused by her own parents. Both parents. She terminated the pregnancy by a court order.
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Really. The court mandated killing an innocent person? Since you don’t list your whereabouts in your profile, I assume you are in the U.S. When did this country become communist China?
She is suffering. Most of us can’t imagine such horror. Pray for her! At least she had a choice!
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If it is true, as you say, that she was forced to have an abortion, where is the choice you talk about? She is suffering no doubt, which is tragic in itself. Now that suffering is compounded by the fact that an innocent person is dead.
 
It is tragical when anyone, whether it be a young child or woman is offended, by parents, a rapist, or whatever the case may be,and becomes pregnant, has an abortion, what would be the greater sin. Being offended by someone in such cases is a sin, but to abort an innocent fetus, child at any stage to me is the greater sin.God forbid, if my wife or child had become pregnant by any means, which violates God’s will or commandments, my choice would be to permit the birth of any child, because life is too precious in my eyes and God’s eyes. Who knows what the child may become, possibly a pope, priest, nun or someone that is holy and special. Padre Pio once visited a hospital and spoke with a woman that just had an abortion. Padre Pio saw things and knew things that others could not even imagine. He told the woman that the child she had aborted would have become a pope.Who are we to decide life or death? Are we all gods? My will and desire is not to offend God, and my heart, soul and total being tells me not to abort any baby at any stage. When my wife would become pregnant, I always prayed to my precious Jesus to make everything go well for my wife and the baby. I always feared, if a doctor told me I had to make a choice whether to save my wife or baby, I always felt the proper choice was to permit my wife to give birth to the baby.My wife, God bless her, had a life. How could I not let the baby have a chance to experience life. Possibly, that baby would have brought me greater happiness and joy than my wife.Maybe the baby would become something precious to God and me. Just like a flower, it creates seeds, but dies, but the seeds flourish and create more flowers abundantly with greater beauty. To me, we are no different, we also should create new life and let it flourish.God is involved in all that we do,if we permit Him.I let Him make the decisions!
 
sosayi1960 said:
There is no greater blessing or honor than to give birth, but in the state of marriage.
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What a idealistic concept. If you choose to have 100 children it’s your CHOICE.
It’s easy to condemn others isn’t it? When parents sexually abuse and impregnate their own children then what? Are they forced to carry the next pregnancy to term?
How many “Pro-life” people have actually worked with children who have been sexually abused by their own parents? What anger me is the self-righteous,head in the clouds people who live in a fantasy world. I have recently worked with an 11 yr old girl who was abused by her own parents. Both parents. She terminated the pregnancy by a court order. She is suffering. Most of us can’t imagine such horror. Pray for her! At least she had a choice!

Cases of incest amount to one half of one percent of abortions.

Now that we’ve talked about that, how do you justify the other 99 1/2 %.
 
Cases of incest amount to one half of one percent of abortions.
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Now that we’ve talked about that, how do you justify the other 99 1/2 %.
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The same goes for rape. It’s pretty overstated. Kinda like how many homosexuals like to overstate how large a percentage of the population is such. It doesn’t justify the act. (Two wrongs don’t make a right, anyone?)
 
holly
are you suggesting that whatever does not bother your personal concious is ok to partake of. ? that would include not just a pro choice position but any other harmfull action.
the church does not force anyone to believe in prolife are any other truth . all it tells us is that if you choose to believe certain harmfull attitudes and action , your concious if not formed by the teachings of jesus christ and you have chosen to follow another teacher . you have turned away from makeing the decision to follow the teaching of jesus christ .all of this is your choice.
you can pray and expect the lord jesus to give you new understand and that would change what you now believe about allowing the killing of the unborn. if i do not believe what the church teaches , i know my concious is not formed according to the teaching of jesus. so i confess this to my lord and ask him to give me new understanding . i wait and he is faithful to give me new understanding. one thought that helps me is ,if my thoughts are contrary to the teachings of jesus, then ,GUESS who is wrong? jesus is patient and has promised to be with us and to complet the work he has begun in us at baptism. always growing in knowlede and understand is a great gift from our lord. he is the teacher of our soul. jane cormier in cajun country of south louisiana god bless
 
God is Life. Why do we want to be anyway except as He created us to be? We are Life because He made us “in the image of Himself”…(Genesis 1:26-28). Being “pro-choice” is a vernacular brought forth after Roe vs Wade was issued. Basically we were given free will (choice…if you prefer) to choose God or to not choose God. When we decide to choose other than what God is - Life - then we are choosing sin. God’s son, Jesus Christ, came into this world because so many were choosing sin (death) instead of His Father. Jesus came that we may have abundant life (John 10:10) and He did this by dying and choosing Life for us. So to try to justify pro-choice as our free will may be correct only in the Light of Christ because we are choosing the choice of Life not Death…or Love not Hate. Love is explained in the Bible and is usually used when two are married so that they will “choose” to Love as God loves us. If you want to say that we are pro-choice people, o.k. …say that in the correct tense of usage. If you are saying pro-choice in application of life’s issues of abortion and euthansia than the correct tense is no, we are not pro-choice people. As Catholic Christians, we believe in Life who is God Almighty. To do differently, we would not be Christians. To be Christians, we are Pro-Life people. Hope this helps clarify your question RE: Catholics can be Pro-choice? Hope it helps you to have Light in yourself.
 
janechantal said:
God is Life. Why do we want to be anyway except as He created us to be? We are Life because He made us “in the image of Himself”…(Genesis 1:26-28). Being “pro-choice” is a vernacular brought forth after Roe vs Wade was issued. Basically we were given free will (choice…if you prefer) to choose God or to not choose God. When we decide to choose other than what God is - Life - then we are choosing sin. God’s son, Jesus Christ, came into this world because so many were choosing sin (death) instead of His Father. Jesus came that we may have abundant life (John 10:10) and He did this by dying and choosing Life for us. So to try to justify pro-choice as our free will may be correct only in the Light of Christ because we are choosing the choice of Life not Death…or Love not Hate. Love is explained in the Bible and is usually used when two are married so that they will “choose” to Love as God loves us. If you want to say that we are pro-choice people, o.k. …say that in the correct tense of usage. If you are saying pro-choice in application of life’s issues of abortion and euthansia than the correct tense is no, we are not pro-choice people. As Catholic Christians, we believe in Life who is God Almighty. To do differently, we would not be Christians. To be Christians, we are Pro-Life people. Hope this helps clarify your question RE: Catholics can be Pro-choice? Hope it helps you to have Light in yourself.
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Pretty good summary; nice post for only your second time at bat.
 
What a idealistic concept. If you choose to have 100 children it’s your CHOICE.
It’s easy to condemn others isn’t it? When parents sexually abuse and impregnate their own children then what? Are they forced to carry the next pregnancy to term?
How many “Pro-life” people have actually worked with children who have been sexually abused by their own parents? What anger me is the self-righteous,head in the clouds people who live in a fantasy world. I have recently worked with an 11 yr old girl who was abused by her own parents. Both parents. She terminated the pregnancy by a court order. She is suffering. Most of us can’t imagine such horror. Pray for her! At least she had a choice!
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Perhaps your apparent anger prevents you from seeing things clearly.
What does the child have to do with any of this? You would perhaps consider it preposterous to make it legal to kill the abusive parents of said child. But that makes more sense than killing the child who has no guilt in this area.
What this indicates is a skewed perception of reality. Realize that scientifically, theologically, and really that “fetus” is a child, created and loved by God. He alone has the right to determine when that child leaves this world.
You are wrong to think that no one but you has dealt with abuse in this manner. I know several personally. This is an emotional issue, but our emotions should never compel us to do evil. To my way of thinking, there is no greater evil than to murder an innocent child in a brutish, satanic fashion. Strangely enough, society in general feels the same way; even “over the top” horror movies balk at letting the evil character kill a child. Yet insanely enough, we have desensitized ourselves into putting our heads in the ground, plugging our ears and saying: It’s not a child, it’s not a child!"

God grant our society a restoration to sanity.

Peace to all 🙂
 
Green_Tea said:
My question is, does the Catholic Church demand its adherents be “anti-choice”? Let us say I am opposed to abortion, and am working actively to end abortions in this country. Does the Catholic Church demand that I also use “categorical prohibition by the U.S. Federal Government” as a means toward that end?
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Excellent question, Green Tea. I think that using categorical prohibition as a means to this end takes decision-making ability from doctors and patients in extreme cases. As a pro-life person, I would want decisions available to doctors, as to the lives of those involved.
 
If the Catholics in this country would all jump on the pro-life band wagon and vote that way, abortion would be eliminated overnight. Add our evangelical brothers and sisters and abortion would not have a chance. Politicians like Hilliary Clinton would be pro life in a heart beat. I get extremely discouraged when I go to Sunday Mass and see Obama and Hilliary bumper stickers. You can not be pro-choice and Catholic. I do not believe you can be Christian.

Why would God create a human being and be ok with someone destroying it. How you can not do God’s will and call yourself “Christian”, It makes no sense. If I gave you a gift and you smashed it and destroyed it, I would be very hurt. I would not will that to happen. I would be content with you re-gifting, but destroying would not be my will.
 
Amolibri said:
Excellent question, Green Tea. I think that using categorical prohibition as a means to this end takes decision-making ability from doctors and patients in extreme cases. As a pro-life person, I would want decisions available to doctors, as to the lives of those involved.
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What are these “extreme cases?” Former Surgeon General, Everett Koop (remember him?) said that in a lifetime of practice, he never saw a case where abortion was necessary to save the mother’s life.
 
Green_Tea said:
Likewise, one can be opposed to abortion (“pro-life”) and opposed to violent categorical prohibition (“pro-choice”).
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Do you oppose the violent, categorical prohibition of all choices? That is, do you oppose all laws? If you support any law at all then you clearly are not completely pro-choice and I would like to hear the rationale for allowing one to choose to kill a human being while disallowing the choice of … what? Ignoring red lights and speed limits?

Ender
 
Ender said:
Do you oppose the violent, categorical prohibition of all choices? That is, do you oppose all laws? If you support any law at all then you clearly are not completely pro-choice and I would like to hear the rationale for allowing one to choose to kill a human being while disallowing the choice of … what? Ignoring red lights and speed limits?

Ender
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How is supporting the right of a mother to kill her child “pro-choice,” but supporting the right of a child to kill the mother not “pro-choice?”
 
vern_humphrey said:
How is supporting the right of a mother to kill her child “pro-choice,” but supporting the right of a child to kill the mother not “pro-choice?”
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I view the pregnancy where the mother is endangered and the child as well in your question. Many mothers have chosen to allow the child to be born thereby taking their lives. To me, this is an act of a loving parent willing to sacrifice herself for the gift of life to her child. A martyr if you can view this. Giving of life for another. I truly feel in my heart that God is pleased with this mother and that she will see this baby once again one day in Heaven; rejoicing with the Lord over their reunion. What better gift can one give to another than the gift of life? Isn’t it truly up to the mother who lives in this case scenario? Mother has eternal life because she gives life through love. Now it is her child’s turn to choose life through love of others and for others. This is so simple to me. Why is it so difficult for you? Surely you believe that God is the author of life? No one would become pregnant if God was not involved, even those we consider mistakes, rapes, etc. God draws us all to Him in many, many ways despite our own wrong choices here on earth. He desires only that we look to Him for “eternal” life. Life here on earth is at best, eighty or ninety years. Life in heaven is forever and evermore. So let us allow all life to be given to all pregnancies so that God’s plan may be completed in each of us.
 
janechantal said:
I view the pregnancy where the mother is endangered and the child as well in your question. Many mothers have chosen to allow the child to be born thereby taking their lives. To me, this is an act of a loving parent willing to sacrifice herself for the gift of life to her child. A martyr if you can view this. Giving of life for another. I truly feel in my heart that God is pleased with this mother and that she will see this baby once again one day in Heaven; rejoicing with the Lord over their reunion. What better gift can one give to another than the gift of life? Isn’t it truly up to the mother who lives in this case scenario? Mother has eternal life because she gives life through love. Now it is her child’s turn to choose life through love of others and for others. This is so simple to me. Why is it so difficult for you? Surely you believe that God is the author of life? No one would become pregnant if God was not involved, even those we consider mistakes, rapes, etc. God draws us all to Him in many, many ways despite our own wrong choices here on earth. He desires only that we look to Him for “eternal” life. Life here on earth is at best, eighty or ninety years. Life in heaven is forever and evermore. So let us allow all life to be given to all pregnancies so that God’s plan may be completed in each of us.
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Remember, Everet Koop, the former Surgeon General, said in his entire medical career, he never encountered a case where an abortion was necessary to save the mother’s life, and didn’t know of any specific cases encountered by any other doctor.
 
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