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Luke65
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No, that’s not what I’m saying. Go back to the original post that I responded to, #146.
Catholics, Christians, Muslims, whatever you are -- How Do You View Buddhism?
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AJTheMan
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Oh. I honestly don’t know what Rossum is arguing then. The Mahayana sutras, I’m not exactly knowledgeable of.
Either way, Luke, let me assure you that Gautama Buddha did not call Jesus a Satan. I doubt that Gautama Buddha even knew of Christianity.
Edit: Now that I think of it, Gautama Buddha was teaching over 500 years before Christ. How could he have said anything about someone that was not born?
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Luke65
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Oh, that’s not what I think. I believe the Buddha lived around the 5th century before Christ. I believe he tried to live and teach a moral life. In fact, this was the first I heard of Satan being quoted in Buddhist writings, and it’s also the first I heard of Buddha dabbling in magic, which has given me pause. I had thought, and still think it’s possible that God inspired some of Buddha’s teachings for the purpose of preparing the East to receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But now I think it’s possible that the Deceiver mixed in some lies with the truth. But we’ll find out soon enough…
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Luke65
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Right!Edit: Now that I think of it, Gautama Buddha was teaching over 500 years before Christ. How could he have said anything about someone that was not born?
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rossum
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The words were spoken by the Buddha. I “attributed” them to Satan in my post #146 in response to DD2007’s apparent attitude that anything not in the Bible comes from Satan. My intention was to show the error of such a wide-ranging condemnation.
It says something about DD2007’s attitude to God and Satan in that, without apparently reading any Buddhist scriptures, he can somehow know that they are all from Satan, despite their containing things that mirror what God says in the Bible.
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ronin67
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First off God doesn’t send people to hell, a person’s choice sends a person to hell. I know it must pain the Father when a soul is lost to hell, but the fact is we know the way to Heaven. “No one comes to the father except through me”. Do I believe their are people in remote lands that never had contact with a Christian missionary and don’t know anything about Christ, yes. I also believe, however that in this case God knows this and has alternate ways to deal with this situation (we don’t know how and will never know until we see the father). I feel deep inside that there are things we are just not meant to know. Even human learning instruction works the same way in many instances. In the military for example, a brand new private can ask a three star general I want to know why you are doing things this way. Is the general obligated to explain his question, not at all (even though he may choose to do so). God works in the same way, he is not obligated to explain everything to us. Humans always have this feeling that God is obligated to answer our questions and is at our command. Prime example, when people say “God Bless you” or “Christ be with you”. Many feel by saying this, it will happen according to what we say or God will incline to bless someone on a humans request. I try not to do this any more (although it slips out sometime). Most of the time I will say “May God Bless you” or “May Christ be with you”. We can hope and wish that the Father will bless and keep the person we say “May God Bless you” to, but that is not for us to decide. We really need to get out of the business of thinking we know what God wants and just obey his commands thru the scriptures. If God want me to complete items “1-10”, I will do my best to complete items “1-10”.
Take Care and May God Bless!
Ed
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I have read and have a copy of the Buddhist bible (lotus sutra) and I don't recall every reading anything about satan in particular. One thing I will say, having lived in Japan for eight years and back in Japan again, the many beliefs in different types of gods and some of the beliefs of the different mythological creatures (Kapa, Oni, different obake), is that most of these creatures are mischivous by nature and are in most cases trying to deceive or frighten man (sounds very much like satan and his fallen angels to me). What is also funny is the Oni, in Japanese mythology, are credited to showing the Japanese people how to make weapons and conduct war (evil showing men how to do evil, my opinion). Buddhism pretty much doesn't address a direct spiritual conflict between good and evil in the heavenly places like Christianity does. Buddhism refers to this as a individual battle to stop thinking of yourself, thus the suffering will end. The Japanese for the most part are conformists (Buddhism and Shintoism is our country's religions, no need to think or question any further on the subject). Many Japanese who convert to Christianity are, in most instances (not always) shunned from their familys and community circles, just because they are not conforming to the Japanese norm. This type of persecution of the Christian faith is prevelent throughout Japanese history. Jesus for us as Christians is the center piece and only piece that is needed for salvation. I use to think that God stratigically placed prophets all over the world to send his word of love to all. However, having read the different beliefs of the different world religions (the ones that preach the need for all to do good, not evil), none of them agree on one set path to God (unification of one set way to the Father, Heaven, Nirvana, etc.). Jesus was the only one to make the claim that he and the father were one and that he was the only way to God (because he was God in the flesh). Also, the miricles were performed by Christ to back these claims up, in front of people who later recorded these eye witness accounts into the Gospels. The biggest mircle of all being the resurrection. Everything Christ said he would do, he did with the witnesses to attest to the accounts. What is also great about Jesus, he never wrote any of the accounts of his own miracles. The witnesses took care of this, thus no one could say he made up all these great stories about himself. The great act of love from God was when he gave his only begotten son for our sins so we could live. This doesn't sound like a sadistic god to me. A sadistic god would be one who didn't relay the information on how to obtain salvation, then send you to hell because you didn't know.Ed
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Tsuwano
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Quoting scripture out of context in order to prove a point in a debate is not revealing the truth. Quoting scripture out of context to win an argument clouds the truth. It is using scripture in a cynical fashion with the hope that the adversary in the argument will be intimidated by holy writ rather than seeking enlightenment from it. Scripture does indeed become a weapon when used cynically, ignorantly or with the intention to deceive and does not fulfill the purpose for which scripture was intended.
The rest of your post, I’m afraid, is just unclear.
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Tsuwano
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I also thought the individual who suggested that some ways of looking at God is to see God as “puny” had a point, not because God is indeed puny or powerless, but because our understanding of him is puny.
I’ve also read that to speak of God at all is to tell a lie, not because what is said about God is necessarily false, but because in order for us to say anything particular about God is to not express so much of what God is. Nothing we say about God can fully express or comprehend all of God, therefore anything we say is always incomplete and lacking. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t seek to express our experiences of God or trying to experience God. It simply means approaching God with the awareness that our understanding is always limited and that whatever truth we know of God is incomplete. I guess this is just another way to say we should always approach God with humility.
I’ve also read that to speak of God at all is to tell a lie, not because what is said about God is necessarily false, but because in order for us to say anything particular about God is to not express so much of what God is. Nothing we say about God can fully express or comprehend all of God, therefore anything we say is always incomplete and lacking. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t seek to express our experiences of God or trying to experience God. It simply means approaching God with the awareness that our understanding is always limited and that whatever truth we know of God is incomplete. I guess this is just another way to say we should always approach God with humility.
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ronin67
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Tsuwano-san,
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Then what is the truth that the Buddha speaks of? Does the Buddha speak of the true living God (Yahweh) and that he alone provides salvation? Also, I have a very interesting question to you. How many Japanese students have you explained salvation through Jesus Christ to? I have had the opportunity to testify to one Japanese person about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ since I moved to Japan in June. It was the most wonderful feeling that I was relaying information on our Lord Jesus Christ to someone who may have a little understanding or no understanding of Christ at all. It wasn't the joy for myself doing a good job for Christ, but the joy I felt for the person I was explaining it to. Now do you teach at a traditional Japanese school or a private Christian based school? How are you accepted as a Christian in Nagoya?Ed (Tokyo, Japan).
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ronin67
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Tsuwano
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I agree with much of what you’ve written above, but it should be clear that some of the beliefs and mythological creatures you mention in your post have nothing to do with Buddhism as such. These are part of Japanese folk belief and it may be that many Japanese who call themselves Buddhists hold these folk beliefs, but they aren’t recognized in Buddhist theology or practice as far as I know.
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ronin67
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You are correct sir. They stem and are more attached to Shinto beliefs. Correct?
Take Care and May God Bless!
ED
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Tsuwano
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Yes, that is my understanding as well.
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ronin67
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So the majority of Japanese Folklore is taken from Shinto beliefs, yet many Japanese people accept both Buddhism and Shintoism as there foundations of beliefs, yet in many key areas they contradict themselves. Do good and resist evil, yet continue to tell stories about mythological creatures that do not have anything to do with doing good. You’ll have to forgive my outlook on this subject. It kind of falls in the area of being a Christian, yet watching and entertaining ourselves with movies that glorify witchcraft (Harry Potter, Charmed, etc.). In religious beliefs, the Japanese who accept the traditional train of Japanese thought on Buddhism and Shintoism really don’t look into the deep meaning and beliefs of both systems. How have you dealt with this as a Catholic (Christian) trying to explain the truth of Christ to a culture who accepts two totally different belief systems?
Take Care and May Christ be with you.
Ed
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Tsuwano
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Well, first of all, it’s a mistake to lump all Japanese into the same basket spiritually and say that all Japanese believe or do this or that. Japanese are very diverse in both their religious beliefs as well as in religious practice. The greatest influence on Japanese culture and belief has come from the Shinto folk beliefs of ancient Japan and the imported beliefs that became Buddhism in Japan. Many Japanese may be faithful to only one faith tradition, such as Christianity or Buddhism, and yet, as you mentioned, may also practice various customs that originate in the Shinto beliefs of ancient Japan. As I mentioned in earlier posts, one reason for this is that many Japanese do not recognize these folk beliefs and customs as “religion” and see them merely as cultural customs. They might look upon the act of placing a pile of salt at the entrance of a doorway to ward off evil in the same way an American might hang a horseshoe over his doorpost or touch wood to ward off bad luck. These acts are not necessarily seen as religious acts by Americans, but do have their origin in religion. One has to look at what is actually believed and what the point of the act truly is before saying it is a part of this or that faith.
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Luke65
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Well I’m glad to hear that. I hope next time you won’t be so subtle!
What did I quote out of context? What are you talking about? All three quotes were right on point, except for the fact that Rossum was being sarcastic and apparently has an aversion to using a sarcastic smiley. And the reason I quoted Scripture was precisely to reveal the truth that that quote was in the Hebrew Scriptures long before Buddha lived. Why are you judging my motives? Why are you spouting off with words like “cynical”, “ignorant”, “deceive” and the rest? You’re going to teach me about being a good Catholic? Save it.
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Tsuwano
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I’m sure your motives are pure and no, I’m not trying to teach you how to be a good Catholic. It seems you are already quite sure of how to do that.
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ronin67
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Wouldn’t it be our responsibility as Christians to deliver these people (regardless of Japanese or what ever culture) from the falsehoods they practice or believe in to the reality of Christ? Yes, I’m well aware of the placing of salt and all the other folk lore beliefs the Japanese have (my wife is Japanese) and the silly American folk lore beliefs also. I don’t believe nor promote any of them as a follower of Christ Jesus. If I’m asked by anyone (Japanese or American) I tell them of my belief in Christ Jesus as my Lord and Savior and how the belief in these folk lore talks is wrong and how it really borders on the occult and spiritualism. If we are not part of the solution, we are part of the problem. When you share your beliefs of Christ with non-Christian Japanese, do you tell them this truth or do you do the typical Japanese response (beat around the bush with politeness as not to offend)? The truth of Christ must be told, yet you can still be polite and reveal the truths of Christ to them. Sir, you have a great opportunity to save so many Japanese people for Christ. I love the Japanese people. They are some of the nicest, most respectful people I have ever met in my short life, but nice and respectful without Christ doesn’t get them eternal salvation. I hope and pray that I get the same opportunity you have to preach the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ to many Japanese people. I also hope to one day meet you in person.
Take Care and May Christ be with you always!
Ed
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Tsuwano
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Well, I don’t think it is my responsibility to deliver anyone from the falsehoods they practice. It is my responsibility as a Christian to live and bear witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but it is the grace of God which delivers people from sin. I suppose your question really boils down to how do we live and bear witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is the truth of the Gospel that must be witnessed to, but the means by which one bears witness may change depending on the receptivity of the culture and the effectiveness of the means one uses. It would not be effective, for instance, to pass out Bibles at a train station in Morocco or preach on the corner in Kabul. Such activity, though perhaps fulfilling on a personal level, would be counter productive and give not only a false impression of Christ’s message to the world, but endanger the small Christian communities that already exist in the area. Not only must we be as innocent as lambs in living our faith, but we must also be as wiley as a fox in our witness.
Mission is not only about bearing witness to the Gospel in cultures separate from your own or among people who have not yet heard the Word of God, it is also about converting ourselves and opening ourselves up to hearing and seeing Christ as he is already present in that culture. We do not bring Christ to a people. Christ is already present among those people precisely because they are also objects of God’s love, even though that love may not be recognized to its fullest extent (which I believe to be the incarnation of Christ). Missionaries go to a foreign country to discover Christ and to help others discover the Christ as he has already manifested himself. If possible, we help the people reflect upon their experiences of Christ and come to a realization that, not only have they not been separated from Christ, God’s grace and love has already entered into their experiences and continues to work in their culture through the Holy Spirit. Through the missionary experience we discover a new Christ in each culture and allow that new vision to inform our own vision of God’s saving action in the world.
Now, the next question two questions to ask are a bit more specific. It centers on how we do mission specifically in Japan and secondly, how do I personally do mission. Concerning Japan, I think the Christian mission has been successful in various ways. Though I recognize many people measure success by the number of people who are baptized, I don’t think this is the most important or valid way to measure success in Japan. I think the Christian mission has been successful in the way it has helped change the values of Japanese culture and enabled the Japanese to see themselves as a part of a larger world. Japanese culture has become much more aware of the value of life and the responsibility of individuals to care for the weakest of society during the centuries since Christianity first arrived on its shores. Education was not always recognized as a value for the populace as a whole in Japan, but that has definitely changed due to the great effort missionaries have devoted to schools and universities here. The process of changing values is a program that necessarily requires time to reach fruition, and so it is often thought that Christianity is a failure in Japan. I dispute this and think that Japan, in the past 500 years of its experience with Christianity, has changed its perception (and continues to change its perception) a great deal and is now much closer to the Christian view of the world than ever before in its ancient past. So, in my opinion, I believe it is necessary to change the values of Japan in order to make it more receptive to the Christian message. As you noted, Japan is an ancient and proud civilization, and there are methods of doing mission which I think would not only fail in Japan, but would be detrimental to the missionary activity already underway. Those methods generally supported by the evangelistic communities, in my opinion, would not work here, and so far, they haven’t.
Please allow me more time to reflect on the question concerning my personal witness to the Gospel in Japan and I will try to answer you in the near future.
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ronin67
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Thank you so much sir for the very well said explanation. I appreciate your patience in explaining it all. I have read and heard the evangelistic approach really has failed in Japan. I guess I understand why. You do really have to show them how Christianity is already in motion in their society (as you stated much more gracefully than myself). I guess my next question is, how have you accomplished bringing people to Christ in Japan? I wish to do this, but with much less experience than yourself. Any help would be deeply appreciated. Are you a priest? Take care my friend and may Christ be with you!
Ed
Ed
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