Catholics Defend French Cathedral de Lyon During Homosexual "Kiss-In"

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It** was** a protest. If anyone of them were looking for help, the youth helped them by affirming the moral teaching of the Church. It is no act of charity to affirm people in their mortal sin. Such “charity” paves the road to Hell.
Yes, affirming acts of sin would be uncharitable. However, I never stated anything of the sort. The point that I made was about getting past appearances and reaching out to their souls. But this can’t be done when we elevate someone else’s sin above our own. It’s as if we entitle ourselves to pick up the first stone.

We are all humans who are earnestly seeking God. We should be reaching out to our brothers and sisters (homosexuals and lesbians) especially when they come to our own front doorstep.

Pax et Bonum
 
Yes, affirming acts of sin would be uncharitable. However, I never stated anything of the sort. The point that I made was about getting past appearances and reaching out to their souls. But this can’t be done when we elevate someone else’s sin above our own. It’s as if we entitle ourselves to pick up the first stone.
That’s not what happened. No Catholic compared sins or elevated sins. What we have is:
  1. Catholic cathedral
  2. Homosexual demonstration
The sin of homosexuality was elevated by the homosexuals themselves who brought it up at as an issue by demonstrating pro-homosexuality at a Catholic Church. You would have a point if the Catholics went out to a gay bar to denounce them, but that is not what happened. If this situation is “picking up the first stone”, then there is no such thing as the spiritual act of mercy of admonishing the sinner. In fact, then no one can ever call anything a sin. Can we let people prance and sashe into Hell because we think we are never worthy enough to say anything is ever sinful?
 
You would have a point if the Catholics went out to a gay bar to denounce them, but that is not what happened. If this situation is “picking up the first stone”, then there is no such thing as the spiritual act of mercy of admonishing the sinner.
Exactly. “In video recordings of the event the homosexual demonstrators are seen jeering, blaspheming, and insulting the Catholics, while the Catholic counter-demonstrators are seen kneeling, praying, and singing hymns.”
 
I believe that the reason for the homosexual protest in front of the cathedral was that the protesters were, in some way, reaching out for help.
Maybe. And maybe it was an attempt to intimidate. We really don’t know the interior motivation. Blasphemy, jeering, and insults are not signs of good will. We do know that.
 
The homosexuals reportedly came on the eve of the “World Day Against Homophobia” in May to kiss each other in front of the cathedral, presumably in protest against the Catholic Church’s 2,000-year-old condemnation of homosexual sex acts.
Too bad there is no World Day against Catholophobia.
 
Yes, affirming acts of sin would be uncharitable. However, I never stated anything of the sort. The point that I made was about getting past appearances and reaching out to their souls. But this can’t be done when we elevate someone else’s sin above our own. It’s as if we entitle ourselves to pick up the first stone.

We are all humans who are earnestly seeking God. We should be reaching out to our brothers and sisters (homosexuals and lesbians) especially when they come to our own front doorstep.

Pax et Bonum
There is a difference in compassion and false compassion
mikeadkins.com/article/bishop-fulton-sheen-on-false-compassionpart-i/
mikeadkins.com/article/bishop-fulton-sheen-on-false-compassionpart-ii/

Would you expect me not to defend my own home from any group of people who intend to disrupt and challenge it…and in some cases trash it?

I will bite and kick…if need be

How much more will I do for my Lords Home?

IMHO Pacifism has it’s place…but not when it comes in defense of my faith.
 
Maybe. And maybe it was an attempt to intimidate. We really don’t know the interior motivation. Blasphemy, jeering, and insults are not signs of good will. We do know that.
Yes, we know that is not good conduct, you’re right. But are we not to expect that in this life? Did not Jesus tell us to rejoice when such things happen to us? What I like to think about in such times is how did Jesus respond to the same insults and blasphemes? (Are the servants greater than the Master?) Neither should our responses be anything less than the Master showed us. Whether it’s a leper, tax collector, prostitute or self-righteous Pharisees, we are to do what Jesus did which was what? He extended His hand and offered grace, and it was up to the recipients to decide what to do next.

I guess the point I’m trying to get across is that we should not be ‘reacting’ to what others do, instead, we should be bringing Christ to them. A Christ who is not chained down by with by our own judgments, but a Christ who is free from them. When God presents us an opportunity, we should get out of His way so that He can work.
 
I wonder if everyone here is speaking past each other, because they’re looking at the situation from different perspectives. Both sides have a piece of the truth.

Let’s look at this from the side of the Catholics in the situation. These people came to protest for whatever their reasons and the Catholics reacted defensively. They felt that they were doing the right thing, because they felt that they were protecting the Cathedral from being desecrated. Whether or not the group was going to desecrate the Cathedral will never really be known, because it did not happen. There is a good here. That good is that the Catholics protected the Cathedral.

From the other side, which I believe is what Wxboss is saying, we must always be missionaries of life to others. These people who came to the Cathedral are obviously very broken and very hurt. Justifiably or not, they feel hurt by the Catholic community. We, as brothers and sisters of life, have a moral duty to ensure that people understand that it is not our intention to hurt them.

We must not think that the road to hell is paved with gentleness, because that is not true either. If that were true, men and women such as Francis of Assisi, Teresa of Calcutta, John XXIII, John Paul II and many others are guilty of sending many people to hell. These were the most gentle souls in the world and yet they are among the giants of holiness in the Church’s history.

We have to find our balance. I am always reminded of Teresa of Avila and Francis of Assisi who converted the most sinful priest in the town by promising him that they would not think any less of him, because he was an adulterer, child abuser, drunk and abused the sacraments. In both cases, the priests involved were brought to their knees by the love that they received from Francis and from Teresa. When Teresa was asked why she did not denounce the man she responded, “Why should I? Everyone else has done that and what good has it done?”

From reading the article I see that both sides are doing the same thing over and over again and not stopping to think like Teresa of Avila. Everyone else has done this before and what good has it done? The in your face protests has never softened the hearts of the Catholics and the harsh reaction of Catholics has done nothing for the person who is committing sin. At some point, people become immune to these positions, because this is just what they expect from the other side.

Maybe, if not on that scene, at least on this thread, we may take to heart the words in the constitutions of the Franciscan Brothers of Life. I think these words can be helpful to anyone.

**“The Brothers of Life of the Order of St. Francis are bound, under pain of eternal damnation, never to deny anyone the gift of life that God wishes that each man receive through our perfect acts of charity. And if a man meet any of our brothers and go away a sinner, let the brother do penance for himself and the other. For such a man has left, because he has failed to perceive Christ in the brother, not through any fault of Christ, but through what is lacking in the brother. Let the brother assume his sins and the sins of others, that like our Holy Father Francis, he may imitate Christ crucified who assumed the sins of humanity.

Obviously, that brother failed to show the charity that Christ revealed to our Holy Father Francis. When he saw a leper he embraced him and kissed him, even though it was repugnant to him. And from that point, sin which had been frightening to Francis was no longer a threat to him or to his brothers, because it was revealed to him that sin is only as strong as we allow it to be.

Therefore, every brother must submit to the will of our Holy Father Francis who commanded us never to raise our voices or our condemnation against any sinner, no matter how grave the sin. Let us always remember the admonition of our Holy Father Francis. We are more sinful than the worse sinner whom we encounter. The only way for us to attain life is to admit that our sinful state is worse than that of any other man, becasue we know Life and we do not embrace it. Only when we open our arms and hearts to the sinner will we receive life from Christ. For Christ deigns to bestow life on the Sons of St. Francis through every sinner whom they embrace.

If Christ has deemed to call us to consecrate our lives to him, we who are the most wretched sinners in the world, how much more does Christ wish to call those who are less sinful than we are? Therefore, let every brother look at all men as better and holier than himself and remember the words of our Father Francis, ‘we are the worst of slime.’ No man, no matter how great his sin is as worthless as we and yet God has been merciful to us and called us to himself.” (Constitutions of the Franciscan Brothers of Life, “Our Life of Penance”).**

I believe that all sides of this issue and many other issues, need to acknowledge their sinfulness in order to open themselves to Life. Only when we see ourselves as being in greater need of forgiveness than the next person can we truly convert another. This is the issue at hand between the activist gay community and defensive Christians. Both sides need to step down and admit their sinfulness. Someone has to lead the way.

I know where I can begin stepping down. My heart is arrogant. My faith is weak. My mercy is lacking and my charity a matter of convenience. I have not always loved with purity of intention nor have I embraced the sinner as my better. Only God can calculate the difference between the punishment that I deserve and the mercies that I have been granted. May God continue to have mercy on my soul should die before I wake and may he grant me the graces necessary to begin again, if he should deign to grant me another day of Life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Exactly. “In video recordings of the event the homosexual demonstrators are seen jeering, blaspheming, and insulting the Catholics, while the Catholic counter-demonstrators are seen kneeling, praying, and singing hymns.”
Its worth remembering that ACI Prensa is a Catholic oriented news agency and that the video they produced, and the videos they received, are likely to reflect the best behavior from the Catholic counter-protesters and the worst behavior from the homosexual protesters. Given the nature of protests and counter-protests, I expect good behavior and bad behavior occurred on both sides.
 
I wonder if everyone here is speaking past each other, because they’re looking at the situation from different perspectives. Both sides have a piece of the truth.

Let’s look at this from the side of the Catholics in the situation. These people came to protest for whatever their reasons and the Catholics reacted defensively. They felt that they were doing the right thing, because they felt that they were protecting the Cathedral from being desecrated. Whether or not the group was going to desecrate the Cathedral will never really be known, because it did not happen. There is a good here. That good is that the Catholics protected the Cathedral.

From the other side, which I believe is what Wxboss is saying, we must always be missionaries of life to others. These people who came to the Cathedral are obviously very broken and very hurt. Justifiably or not, they feel hurt by the Catholic community. We, as brothers and sisters of life, have a moral duty to ensure that people understand that it is not our intention to hurt them.

We must not think that the road to hell is paved with gentleness, because that is not true either. If that were true, men and women such as Francis of Assisi, Teresa of Calcutta, John XXIII, John Paul II and many others are guilty of sending many people to hell. These were the most gentle souls in the world and yet they are among the giants of holiness in the Church’s history.

We have to find our balance. I am always reminded of Teresa of Avila and Francis of Assisi who converted the most sinful priest in the town by promising him that they would not think any less of him, because he was an adulterer, child abuser, drunk and abused the sacraments. In both cases, the priests involved were brought to their knees by the love that they received from Francis and from Teresa. When Teresa was asked why she did not denounce the man she responded, “Why should I? Everyone else has done that and what good has it done?”

From reading the article I see that both sides are doing the same thing over and over again and not stopping to think like Teresa of Avila. Everyone else has done this before and what good has it done? The in your face protests has never softened the hearts of the Catholics and the harsh reaction of Catholics has done nothing for the person who is committing sin. At some point, people become immune to these positions, because this is just what they expect from the other side.

Maybe, if not on that scene, at least on this thread, we may take to heart the words in the constitutions of the Franciscan Brothers of Life. I think these words can be helpful to anyone.

**“The Brothers of Life of the Order of St. Francis are bound, under pain of eternal damnation, never to deny anyone the gift of life that God wishes that each man receive through our perfect acts of charity. And if a man meet any of our brothers and go away a sinner, let the brother do penance for himself and the other. For such a man has left, because he has failed to perceive Christ in the brother, not through any fault of Christ, but through what is lacking in the brother. Let the brother assume his sins and the sins of others, that like our Holy Father Francis, he may imitate Christ crucified who assumed the sins of humanity.

Obviously, that brother failed to show the charity that Christ revealed to our Holy Father Francis. When he saw a leper he embraced him and kissed him, even though it was repugnant to him. And from that point, sin which had been frightening to Francis was no longer a threat to him or to his brothers, because it was revealed to him that sin is only as strong as we allow it to be.

Therefore, every brother must submit to the will of our Holy Father Francis who commanded us never to raise our voices or our condemnation against any sinner, no matter how grave the sin. Let us always remember the admonition of our Holy Father Francis. We are more sinful than the worse sinner whom we encounter. The only way for us to attain life is to admit that our sinful state is worse than that of any other man, becasue we know Life and we do not embrace it. Only when we open our arms and hearts to the sinner will we receive life from Christ. For Christ deigns to bestow life on the Sons of St. Francis through every sinner whom they embrace.

If Christ has deemed to call us to consecrate our lives to him, we who are the most wretched sinners in the world, how much more does Christ wish to call those who are less sinful than we are? Therefore, let every brother look at all men as better and holier than himself and remember the words of our Father Francis, ‘we are the worst of slime.’ No man, no matter how great his sin is as worthless as we and yet God has been merciful to us and called us to himself.” (Constitutions of the Franciscan Brothers of Life, “Our Life of Penance”).**

I believe that all sides of this issue and many other issues, need to acknowledge their sinfulness in order to open themselves to Life. Only when we see ourselves as being in greater need of forgiveness than the next person can we truly convert another. This is the issue at hand between the activist gay community and defensive Christians. Both sides need to step down and admit their sinfulness. Someone has to lead the way.

I know where I can begin stepping down. My heart is arrogant. My faith is weak. My mercy is lacking and my charity a matter of convenience. I have not always loved with purity of intention nor have I embraced the sinner as my better. Only God can calculate the difference between the punishment that I deserve and the mercies that I have been granted. May God continue to have mercy on my soul should die before I wake and may he grant me the graces necessary to begin again, if he should deign to grant me another day of Life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Listening:)🙂
 
Its worth remembering that ACI Prensa is a Catholic oriented news agency and that the video they produced, and the videos they received, are likely to reflect the best behavior from the Catholic counter-protesters and the worst behavior from the homosexual protesters.
Why are they “likely”? Do you have evidence to suggest this is how they do business?
 
Yes, we know that is not good conduct, you’re right. But are we not to expect that in this life? Did not Jesus tell us to rejoice when such things happen to us? What I like to think about in such times is how did Jesus respond to the same insults and blasphemes? (Are the servants greater than the Master?) Neither should our responses be anything less than the Master showed us. Whether it’s a leper, tax collector, prostitute or self-righteous Pharisees, we are to do what Jesus did which was what? He extended His hand and offered grace, and it was up to the recipients to decide what to do next.

I guess the point I’m trying to get across is that we should not be ‘reacting’ to what others do, instead, we should be bringing Christ to them. A Christ who is not chained down by with by our own judgments, but a Christ who is free from them. When God presents us an opportunity, we should get out of His way so that He can work.
I hear what you’re saying here. Do you think the sign “No more Catholophobia” was inappropriate? If you do, that’s fine. I personally do not. The term “homophobia” is used to intimidate. The people who use this term don’t want discussion. They want to silence discussion. It’s namecalling (ad hominem). Namecalling is a form of judging. I think the sign was a gentle way to get the protesters to reflect that maybe Catholics aren’t the only ones with phobias.
 
Why are they “likely”? Do you have evidence to suggest this is how they do business?
As with the case of the news article that lumped Neo-Nazis in with the Catholics, it is just the nature of the beast.

I speak as one that has been on both sides.
 
We must not think that the road to hell is paved with gentleness, because that is not true either. If that were true, men and women such as Francis of Assisi, Teresa of Calcutta, John XXIII, John Paul II and many others are guilty of sending many people to hell.
I did not say gentleness, as that is a virtue. I said affirming people in mortal sin. Fortitiude is still a Cardinal Virtue in our Faith. I agree that balance is needed. Indeed the model of gentleness and fortitude is our Saviour. The one place the He most displayed fortitude was in the court of the Temple when it was being turned into a market place.

Let me just say that I see a more direct application in this story than many others. If a line to these sort of shennanigans is to be drawn, the House of God is a good place to draw it.
 
Its worth remembering that ACI Prensa is a Catholic oriented news agency and that the video they produced, and the videos they received, are likely to reflect the best behavior from the Catholic counter-protesters and the worst behavior from the homosexual protesters. Given the nature of protests and counter-protests, I expect good behavior and bad behavior occurred on both sides.
Perhaps, in which case such misbehavior may not have been appropriate. I know I can only comment on the data at hand, what I have seen. Other video, if it comes to light, would possibly change things.
 
As with the case of the news article that lumped Neo-Nazis in with the Catholics, it is just the nature of the beast.
So basically, it’s all spin. The only way to portray events like this is distortion. Saying it’s the nature of the beast implies there’s no way to portray it honestly (i.e., as it really happened). Is that what they teach in journalism school?
 
So basically, it’s all spin. The only way to portray events like this is distortion. Saying it’s the nature of the beast implies there’s no way to portray it honestly (i.e., as it really happened). Is that what they teach in journalism school?
No, I doubt it. Biases sometimes do creep in, but they should be detected and steps taken to safeguard against them.

The AFP article should have been more balanced, because it is a mainstream news organization. But the ACI Prensa video and the LifeSite article are coming from “Point of View” news organizations. They present news which is in keeping with their viewpoint. LifeSite does so aggressively, and doesn’t have a good record for objectivity. Their headline in this thread is a case in point - the actual article gives no indication that the protesters intended to enter the cathedral. So why say the counter protesters defended the cathedral, other than to grab attention and give the article a spin which may fool readers? Let’s face it, many people don’t read beyond the headline and the paragraphs quoted in a thread (if even that much) so headlines often determine opinions.

I am not familiar with ACI Prensa and its level of objectivity. However, their English language news service is Catholic News Agency and it does present news from a distinct point of view. I’ve only rarely seen outright bias or distortions in their articles, but they do occur. And contrasting views are often given slight mention, or not at all.
 
Perhaps, in which case such misbehavior may not have been appropriate. I know I can only comment on the data at hand, what I have seen. Other video, if it comes to light, would possibly change things.
Yours is a very reasonable position. Yet, such videos are unlikely to be presented here since very few, if any, CAF members have any interest in digging for them.

However, the absence of such evidence being presented in a Catholic forum doesn’t mean that pro-Catholic news sources have objectively depicted the events which occurred. It simply means that the views of the other side are not being represented. I am simply asking for a bit of caution in assuming that the behavior at the rally and counter-rally was a black and white affair.
 
Yes, we know that is not good conduct, you’re right. But are we not to expect that in this life? Did not Jesus tell us to rejoice when such things happen to us? What I like to think about in such times is how did Jesus respond to the same insults and blasphemes? (Are the servants greater than the Master?) Neither should our responses be anything less than the Master showed us. Whether it’s a leper, tax collector, prostitute or self-righteous Pharisees, we are to do what Jesus did which was what? He extended His hand and offered grace, and it was up to the recipients to decide what to do next.

I guess the point I’m trying to get across is that we should not be ‘reacting’ to what others do, instead, we should be bringing Christ to them. A Christ who is not chained down by with by our own judgments, but a Christ who is free from them. When God presents us an opportunity, we should get out of His way so that He can work.
I believe this is what the counter protetors did… They witnessed to them the love of Christ by praying and singing hymns while the homo protestors snarled and yelled profanities. I’m not sure what you are having a problem with when it comes to the sensible ways these Catholics did to protect the faith. What exactly do you find wrong with what these young Catholics did?

Peace!👍
 
Its worth remembering that ACI Prensa is a Catholic oriented news agency and that the video they produced, and the videos they received, are likely to reflect the best behavior from the Catholic counter-protesters and the worst behavior from the homosexual protesters. Given the nature of protests and counter-protests, I expect good behavior and bad behavior occurred on both sides.
Yes I’m sure this is what you do expect! but unless you have some proof of this misconduct you should maybe let us know what you think of your brothers and sisters in arms ranting and raving at the Catholic youths pryer and singing.

I would have to say that if I was going to go and counter protest like this it would be a general thought within our group to NOT resort to the enemies tactics.

Peace!👍
 
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