Catholics Don't Understand Church History

[Gorgias]

I would add he wants to be the greatest, let him be as the least and serve

Great. Yet, “being as the least and serving” doesn’t make a person have authority, which is what you seem to be claiming (i.e., “service implies authority” in the ‘church down the street’).

Well. will the Spirit work in a salvific and nourishing way contrary to what Peter and the apostles laid down by their offices, even a Petrine one?

The Spirit works despite these conditions. And, I’d assert, the Spirit doesn’t provide to other denominations the graces that He provides to the Church through means that these other denominations eschew.

Strongly disagree if you are saying Pentecost did not see Peter’s use of keys a first

Then, you would be mistaken. Peter “uses the keys” and acts in his office as leader of the Church in a scene which we see recorded in Acts 1 – the naming of a replacement for Judas.

Cant seperate ministry and authority.

Wrong again, I’m afraid. What ‘authority’ do you exercise when you help someone across the road, or donate goods to the poor? None. You’re merely performing an act of Christian charity, and ministering to someone as a follower of Christ.

 

[mcq72]

I’m afraid your logic is flawed, and your perspective ignores the places where the argument falls apart.

So if you don’t have use of Catholic tradition, history, and all of their councils, you can’t use any tradition, history and any council?

Great. Yet, “being as the least and serving” doesn’t make a person have authority, which is what you seem to be claiming

I have posted there are fruits of salvific grace, of spiritual life, in our so called keyless communities, indicative of authority at work, through the proclamation of the gospel (a very apostolic, authoritative thing to do). It is not making doctrine but declaring apostolic doctrine, as His ambassadors.

 

[historyfan81]

every group has biases the protestans have me up wild unhistorical claims about the church like the Constantine created the catholic church

but to be fair catholics love to deny as well some things that where and are clear i have argued this many times on this site already but the modern day notion of papal supremacy that we have is not found in the early church a sort of elevation and primacy yes but not the extend of today but there are many catholics who deny this

 

[mcq72]

The Spirit works despite these conditions. And, I’d assert, the Spirit doesn’t provide to other denominations the graces that He provides to the Church through means that these other denominations eschew.

Ok…
Your answer lies within the paradigm of essentials and non essentials it seems.

Then, you would be mistaken. Peter “uses the keys” and acts in his office as leader of the Church in a scene which we see recorded in Acts 1 – the naming of a replacement for Judas.

I meant the preaching at Pentecost was a first, just as Cornelius was a first as a Gentile etc.

 

[Gorgias]

So if you don’t have use of Catholic tradition, history, and all of their councils, you can’t use any tradition, history and any council?

No… you just can’t present a reasonable case for doing the way you pick and choose.

I have posted there are fruits of salvific grace, of spiritual life, in our so called keyless communities, indicative of authority at work

No… it’s indicative of the Holy Spirit at work.

Your answer lies within the paradigm of essentials and non essentials it seems.

No; it denies that approach.

I meant the preaching at Pentecost was a first

And yet, it’s not the first use “of the keys”. So, there’s not much for your argument to stand on.

 

[mcq72]

No… it’s indicative of the Holy Spirit at work .

So is the righteous use of the keys, of the formation of any teaching etc…

 

[Gorgias]

So is the righteous use of the keys

No. The “righteous use of the keys” is indicative of Jesus’ proxy of authority at work. But, I can understand how you might feel the need to conflate the two.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I have left the Catholic Church

But we don’t understand Church history, got it.

I pointed out that all the things in his 95 points have been eliminated by the Catholic Church (it was all about selling indulgences, after all)

Easy to attack a strawman, selling indulgences was an abuse. Also, indulgences are still a thing.

I came to see that they really have no idea about the facts of their faith.

Okay, but I just pointed out mistakes YOU made

Like my last parish priest in Salem, Oregon who openly stated in a church group that papal encyclicals are “too hard to read.” I know it’s not all Catholics, but it’s 90 per cent. It is a monument to ignorance. I am not going back, but I suggest those of you who still care work to change that.

If you’re not going back, why should you care?

 

[mcq72]

So is the righteous use of the keys (indicative of the Holy Spirit at work).

No. The “righteous use of the keys” is indicative of Jesus’ proxy of authority at work. But, I can understand how you might feel the need to conflate the two.

Are you saying when we act as proxy of authority it is not “indicative of the Holy Spirit at work”, even as guidance in such act of proxy?

Yet here is what we find by one of the more famous acts of authoritative proxy in Acts council:

“For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;”
Acts 15:28

Seems like the Holy Ghost was most certainly at work amongst the apostles and church’s excercise of proxied authority.

 

[Gorgias]

Are you saying when we act as proxy of authority

Hang on a second: when I say “proxy of authority”, I’m referring to the fact that Jesus gives this authority to Peter as His proxy. The notion of “we act as proxy of authority” has nothing to do with it.

Seems like the Holy Ghost was most certainly at work amongst the apostles and church’s excercise of proxied authority.

This doesn’t help your case, since it’s still an example of Apostolic authority in play.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Were non apostle disciples on board?

Did they or did they not all worship Jesus?

 

[mcq72]

This doesn’t help your case, since it’s still an example of Apostolic authority in play.

Well, isn’t the saving and nourishing of souls use of apostolic authority to minister in their fashion, and not just indicative of the Holy Spirit at work?

 

[mcq72]

Did they or did they not all worship Jesus?

Doesn’t say all, and if it did, I have learned from Catholic apologists that it doesn’t necesarily mean all
(eg…“All have sinned”).

Anyways, the question is were any of the alleged non believing disciples that left later on in the boat, or was it just the apostles?

“And they that were in the boat came and adored him, saying: Indeed thou art the Son of God.” Mark 14:33

Also does not negate the condition to worship Him and truth and spirit, and not a self or false image of Him, even as the Son of God.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Also does not negate the condition to worship Him and truth and spirit, and not a self or false image of Him, even as the Son of God.

Like when Peter rebuked Jesus when He predicted His Passion?

Doesn’t say all,

Necessary implication. And your Romans tangent has known exceptions. Unborn babies, Jesus, to name a few.

Anyways, the question is were any of the alleged non believing disciples that left later on in the boat, or was it just the apostles?

The apostles gathered together with Jesus and reported all they had done and taught. He said to them, “Come away by yourselves to a deserted place and rest a while.”
Mark 6:30‭-‬31 NABRE

No one else.

 

[Gorgias]

Well, isn’t the saving and nourishing of souls use of apostolic authority to minister in their fashion, and not just indicative of the Holy Spirit at work?

Not as a necessity. Are you talking about confecting the sacraments? That’s the ministry of the ordained (and therefore, of the apostles, and then their successors, and then priests, to whom was entrusted a share in that ministry). Are you talking about the establishment of the diaconate to aid in distribution of food? That’s authority, but not ministry (the actual ministry was subsequently given to the deacons to perform).

So… what do you have in mind – as an example of ‘saving and nourishing souls’ – that is also an example of ‘authority’?

 

[mcq72]

The apostles gathered together with Jesus and reported all they had done and taught. He said to them, “Come away by yourselves to a deserted place and rest a while.”
Mark 6:30‭-‬31 NABRE

No one else.

Ok, good, it says " apostles" . So do we have any instance of disciples who left at John 6 worshipping Jesus as the Son of God, like the apostles did (Judas still a question mark)?

Again the original question was did the non apistoluc disciples believe at the beginning and then disbelieved, or did Jesus mean they never believed from the beginning?(apparently they did not believe like the apostles ( save Judas).

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Ok, good, it says " apostles" . So do we have any instance of disciples who left at John 6 worshipping Jesus as the Son of God, like the apostles did (Judas still a question mark)?

Said disciples weren’t in the boat. So you are wrong there

(apparently they did not believe like the apostles ( save Judas).

Any proof Judas never believed from the beginning? I’ll answer for you. No.

 

[mcq72]

Any proof Judas never believed from the beginning? I’ll answer for you. No

Any proof that he did?

 

[mcq72]

Said disciples weren’t in the boat. So you are wrong there

Don’t follow you here. Never said they were in the boat. You brought the boat thing up when discussing departing disciples in John 6 I think.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Any proof that he did?

I just gave it.