Catholics for Muslims

[simplynoone]

I have found myself rather surprised that the two have not realized the great similarity that exists between them … granted, the so called intellectuals of the Arab World admitted it when asked of Americans why it is we were attacked by their own on 9/11/01.

"The Qur’ân speaks about the Christians as being the most morally virtuous in their dealings of all religious societies outside of Islam: “You will find that the strongest among men in enmity to the believers are the Jews and pagans, and you will find that the nearest of them in love to the believers are those who say: ‘We are Christians’.” americanvalues.org/html/saudi_statement.html#top

Given that I have had a few death threats by Arab Muslims (rolls eyes at the stupidity of it) over the last year given my own personal stance for the People of Israel (both supporting their Mind and their Right to be the People that they are and have been), I find startling then the real similarities of the end goal between the two “replacement” religions against this People, Israel … and even more so, that the individuals w/in Christianity (more so than those w/in Islam who see and admit it more than the Christians) could be so ignorant of the objective they have in common w/ Muslims. I don’t believe that many Christians are willing to see through w/ logic to what it is the end goal of their religion is seeking… but it is written quite clearly w/in the pages of their NT.

After all, I Corinthians 15:
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. <— the bread which is the body of Christ (i.e. annointed … which is the People, Israel, according to the Tanach) broken … wow … that is to break apart a People and their Mindset. Why? Really, why? Is not this what the Arab Muslims seek as well? To rid, according to the mouths of their own leaders … to rid the map of Israel?

That is some serious word written there, no? It is the justification of one’s life by the blood spilled of another … and in this case, a Jewish man (for Jesus was Jewish, no?). Exodus 23:7 <---- after all, Jesus confirmed his loyalty to their Law and testimonies in Matthew 5:17-19 … then, there is not justification to be found in the shedding of and partaking in the shed blood of an innocent man according to Jesus’ own teaching. Even take into consideration Titus 1:7-11 <— sounds more to be in line w/ those of the faith of Islam than those of the modern Christianity, after all.

Though Christianity now employs different means to reach their objective, that being the conversion of the Jewish mind to the Christian mindset, the objective is still the same as those who are of Islam … the latter, for the most part, are willing to admit this.

(Generalizing Christianity and the words of their NT as well as those who may be Muslim and am in no way implying that all individuals w/in are aware of the ultimate objective that their religions have in common … only I am pointing out what seems to me to be the obvious similarity, that is the objective, and the irony of the constant debating between the individuals of these two religions whose beginnings, both, can only be credited to their piggy-back riding upon the shoulders of the religion, Judaism, and the silencing … by blatant as well as by subtle attempts … of the Jewish People).

 

[Steven_John]

StevenJohn,

I have tried to understand your post no. 1 and it tells me about your intentions to educate us with your personal opinion of love, sin, and forgiveness. While you are quoting verses or parables in particular, I am afraid you might get carried away with the lesson you might get from it.

The love, sin and forgiveness are all defined in the whole story of the Holy Bible and not from one particular story. The parables that Jesus taught us are lessons in life of simple people like you and me. We have to understand that God is the absolute Word and actions, which means that no one like you and me will never be able to know and understand what God wants to do.

For your thread, Christians or Catholics know the meaning of love Jesus taught and that includes loving not only the Muslims but all human beings. This does not mean that we us Catholics will not criticize Islam. We criticize because of the truth.

Peace and blessings, i agree with your reflection on the first post others two have offered similar in following posts and i have agreed it would have been better to make reference to people of the Islamic religion rather than Islamic religion. I am not always the best chooser of words well often i am not.

As for getting carried away, dont worry, worry is a trick of the darkness to blind us in lack of faith. Nothing for you to worry He will and does all good. I could have quoted some examples but that would have dragged posters into the negative. I feel many of us including myself, (not suggesting you do) fall to this show their error game.

You maybe right that it is not good to try and do good with parables scripture and it is better to just use it to show error in others, it sure helps show error in me.

It is great in your last paragraph you agree with me about who Catholics are called to be and i live in hope you will encourage those at CAF who are falling away from love. The point of the thread being people loving criticising rather than building goodness in the posters.

Quick back read from this post even in this thread you will see some posters have nothing good to say of posts or posters even if they are trying to build goodness they just love to point how wrong blind to any good.

I personally dont feel that “We criticize because of the truth” fits all posts by those proclaiming to be Catholic at CAF, given I have been pmed me that they do not always have “truth” as their reason for posting,(i have been in the same error) your quoted statement is wrong or you assert false unless ever time a Catholic falls to error they are not Catholic.
I feel the intent of your statement is what Catholics should do or aspire to do, if so as stated i agree its the point of the thread.

I also feel we criticise with truth to bring change, no other reason. If i post criticise with no faith it will bring change it does not serve any good.

Bless ya pray well and stay well.

 

[rikkk1958]

This forum especially in the Non-Catholic Thread, the intent is to present views and that include criticism. We Catholics are being criticized and we accept it with open mind. The truth if criticized has to stand up to defend. Being the truth means that their should be no other truth to stand, and to criticize them is the only way to prove they are wrong.

The Catholic Church as we always discussed here proves that it has the basis for the truth, unlike any others who were invented especially by the testimonies of its founders. When somebody deceives it has to be met with criticism so that many will not be fooled. We are the defender for this truth, because it is with us that the love of God is truly understood.

 

[Steven_John]

This Christian era especially in the Catholic Church, the intent is to present views of goodness and love. Catholics are being called and to accept it with open heart. The truth if shared has to stand up in love. Being the truth means that their should be no other truth to stand, and to love them is the only way to prove they are wrong.

The Catholic Church as we don’t always discuss here proves that it is of the basis for the love, unlike many others who were invented especially to condemn testimonies of goodness in others. When somebody condemns goodness it has to be met with criticism so that many will not be fooled. Catholics are the defenders for this truth in love, because it is with us that the love of G-d is truly understood by action.

 

[planten]

This Christian era especially in the Catholic Church, the intent is to present views of goodness and love. Catholics are being called and to accept it with open heart. The truth if shared has to stand up in love. Being the truth means that their should be no other truth to stand, and to love them is the only way to prove they are wrong.

The Catholic Church as we don’t always discuss here proves that it is of the basis for the love, unlike many others who were invented especially to condemn testimonies of goodness in others. When somebody condemns goodness it has to be met with criticism so that many will not be fooled. Catholics are the defenders for this truth in love, because it is with us that the love of G-d is truly understood by action.

That appears to be a good post. I need to restrict myself too in the face of some abuse. Could we say in other words that formula is “Love for All, Hatred for None.”??/ Could that be the key to success between different religions???

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

That is the foundation…of Christianity…love for all, hatred for none…

 

[qwerk]

There is nothing wrong with criticizing an ideology and I wish some people would remember that. Many on this forum do and it is good to know that. Many do not. Many don’t want to hear what Islam is.

Galatians 1
8 - But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!

9 - As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed

And Islam does just that. It contradicts the Bible time after time. One has to read it to know this though and to keep asking the Muslims to tell you what it is means you will not know the truth because in Islam most Muslims don’t even read their Koran in their language and they don’t read it to understand it they just memorize it in Arabic. Sharia laws tell them they are not supposed to ask any questions either and they are supposed to know about abrogation if they do.

One very telling verse from the Bible is this:
Matt 5: 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In Islam not only are commandments broken time and again, it is either considered a good deed - such as the deception called taqiyya, but in cases where Jihad is explained (o9), it is an outright call to war against the non-muslim with violence as a preferred method. When they are in dar al harb, they are supposed to obey all the rules of war!

But we must not forget Matt Chapt 5: 43-48 which addresses the people verses the ideology. To love our enemy inspite of the persecution from them. But nowhere does it say that we should not stand up and tell the truth and in fact it says the opposite.

Matthew Chapt 5: 10-12

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

These last few verses I also remember when our own bash us because they don’t want to hear the truth about Islam.

 

[Lapell]

Ok, I’ll bite. I agree with you that we should be charitable to Muslims. However, as the title of the encyclical “Caritas in Veritate” shows, we are to share the Truth in love! If it offends you that we are exposing Islamic lies for what they are then too bad. You’ll just have to deal with that because Christ also called us to expose lies for what they are. I know that you probably believe that Islam is the true path. You don’t explicitly say that you are Muslim but I suspect that you are a Muslim or at least you have some strong Islamic tendencies. But anyway, back to the main point. It is good to be charitable but we are also to share the Truth in a loving manner. We are also called to expose lies. I’m sorry but you can’t cherry pick Christ’s teachings.

NOTE: I am not attempting to accuse you of anything. I am merely attempting to practice what I preach by sharing the Truth in love.

May the peace of Christ be with you always,
Holly

You expose the Truth in love? Well, good for you! That involves choosing your words carefully so as not making use of insults. Francis of Assisi may not have made the Sultan he dealt with a Christian, but he certainly gained his heart in a very Christian way! And the Franciscans, thanks to this, were allowed to be custodians of the Holy Land’s Catholic pilgrimage sites.

 

[Lapell]

Planten,

That is the foundation…of Christianity…love for all, hatred for none…

Unfortunately, not all of us Christians live up to our beautiful name. Like Chesterton said: “The Christian ideal wasn’t tried and found wanting; it was found difficult and left untried.” Also, the “old Adam” (or “old Eve” for the women) is back on the scene every once in a while.

 

[qwerk]

You expose the Truth in love? Well, good for you! That involves choosing your words carefully so as not making use of insults. Francis of Assisi may not have made the Sultan he dealt with a Christian, but he certainly gained his heart in a very Christian way! And the Franciscans, thanks to this, were allowed to be custodians of the Holy Land’s Catholic pilgrimage sites.

Tell me some different words for pediphilia, murder, torture, assasination, extortion, lying - ok, that one we can use the word deception or a word that many don’t feel is derogatory such as taqiyya which IS derogatory but whatever, kufir (which is derogatory term for non-muslims or unbelievers), pigs, apes, etc?

I have read where clerics say it is ok to marry a baby as young as 1 yr old. So, is that a better word than pediphilia? A wife, but forgetting to mention that the baby is 1 yr old?

There is a Father Boteros out there that tries to say it nicely too. It doesn’t matter how you say it anyway, criticizing Islam bothers Muslims because we are not supposed to do it according to their laws. Non-Muslims who criticize Islam in any way are to be put to death.

You can show a Muslim their own Koran, show how it is being carried out in life today and they get upset. They tell us we are misunderstanding it but they do nothing to change the Jihadists who are following the Koran and Sharia laws.

Trying to shut us up by saying we are Islamophobes or not using the correct words is just playing into their hands and working against us.

Can you show me where it says it is wrong for us to tell the truth? In a previous post I showed where it is not only good, but we will be rewarded for doing so.

If I am misunderstanding your note just let me know.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ said many are called but few are chosen.

 

[Lapell]

Tell me some different words for pediphilia, murder, torture, assasination, extortion, lying - ok, that one we can use the word deception or a word that many don’t feel is derogatory such as taqiyya which IS derogatory but whatever, kufir (which is derogatory term for non-muslims or unbelievers), pigs, apes, etc?

Ahem… I thought the thread was about the conversations involving Muslims here on CAF!
Have any of the Muslims expressing themselves on CAF latelyspoken this way? Show us examples. I might have missed them since I don’t really go to all the CAF’s “non-Catholic” threads…

 

[Lapell]

You can say the truth angrily or you can say it recognizing some things which are truly edifying in the one you wish to criticize. And then you go on with the things that bother you, quietly, detachedly if you can. You’re not dealing with only one person, but with many people of one group, the Muslims… which may not be properly put into only one bag, and one of the pejorative kind at that…

 

[qwerk]

Ahem… I thought the thread was about the conversations involving Muslims here on CAF!
Have any of the Muslims expressing themselves on CAF latelyspoken this way? Show us examples. I might have missed them since I don’t really go to all the CAF’s “non-Catholic” threads…

Ahem, I was asking the person how to say those things with a different word, or words. You are not answering the question but trying to divert from the question.

Ignoring those things that Muhammad did or just not admitting to them, is what we get from Muslims. How can you follow Muhammad, a man who did those things?

BTW, I am not angry and in fact I am in a pretty good mood. So, can you answer those questions? I do understand your laws say we are not to criticize Muhammad or Islam, but since you are here can you answer them?

 

[rikkk1958]

The teachings of Jesus Christ about love is above all other virtues. The golden rule that is to love others like yourself, or do not do unto others what you do do not want others to do unto you. This is also the most important commandments, only after how we should love God.

Applying this virtue to suppressed the truth may not be easy. Christians are obligated by the Word is which to announce to the whole world who is the the The Life, The Truth, and The Way. If we submit ourselves to a deception that is contrary to God, then the devil wins. God told us which is right and wrong, or the truth and not, therefore we have to obey God and oppose evil.

We can love one another by the Way, the Life, and the Truth that God want us to do. This act of love is the only way we can live accordingly. There is no other way. We have to teach and continue to announce God’s good news so that everyone will know the true God. I want to believe that other people aside from Christians want to believe God. However, they are only deceived by those who do not follow.

God presented us His Word already, and no one should alter that. No one can re-invent the Word of God. Again, I love everyone because they are my brothers and sisters, but I want them to know the real God.

This is also the reason why we have so much respect to those who knew God before the Christians. The Jews knew exactly who God is, but then they refused to acknowledge the Son. Are they judged by these? No, it is up to them to accept the Son. For them, they have known God already and no need to accept the Son. Let God be the judge.

What they missed is the redemption that the Son brought to them because of the sins they have committed from the time of Noah. The death that was the true love of God to all mankind. If they do not accept the Son, it means they have not understood why God came and redeemed them.

 

[TEPO]

I think it’s important to understand that all the posters here on CAF are at different levels of their faith… It takes a whole lot of grace to be able to love all ones neighbors equally, especially when your neighbors disagree with you on God…

Truthfully, we need to love everyone no matter what they believe… Whether they believe in multiple gods, or sin, or whatever…

…And telling someone they are wrong might make us feel like we are doing something good, but the person on the receiving end probably thinks we are a jerk… So we have to learn to live with everyone and lead by example. We need to let the truth do its own work.

I am sorry for anyone I have offended, especially Steven John.

 

[rikkk1958]

Are we going to leave the truth do its course? How? Let Jesus come again and do some miracles? I am afraid I have to disagree. I for one do not want to debate anyone but to discuss a better way of finding out sensible answers. We already know that the truth is there for us to uphold.

I have an obligation not only to love my neighbors but to let them know that there is God who loves humanity more than I do. His love is the number one in our list. Without His love our love is nothing. The good virtues we want to sow are all because of one reason, and that is because we want to be in His Kingdom. That the life here on earth is only temporary for we are promised with eternal life if we do righteousness.

The righteousness is all about loving God with all our might, with all of our everything, and the second is to love our neighbors. Loving only our neighbors is not enough. The reason we want to do the second most important commandment is because of the number one reason. Know thy God! It is therefore important to know the real God. This is the God that has the Word from the beginning. No one should ever alter nor add to it.

I find that any other way of knowing God may have altered or added what God wants humanity should follow. Some may just have deceived others to get some recognition or hatred. It is important therefore to defend the truth if it is under attack. We have to live by the Word.

 

[Steven_John]

Sharia laws tell them they are not supposed to ask any questions either.

I dont say what you are posting is wrong as there are many varied interpretations of sharia law.

Could you quote me your source, at the mosque where i live everyone is encouraged to question everything.

peace and blessings

 

[Steven_John]

I think it’s important to understand that all the posters here on CAF are at different levels of their faith… It takes a whole lot of grace to be able to love all ones neighbors equally, especially when your neighbors disagree with you on God…

Truthfully, we need to love everyone no matter what they believe… Whether they believe in multiple gods, or sin, or whatever…

…And telling someone they are wrong might make us feel like we are doing something good, but the person on the receiving end probably thinks we are a jerk… So we have to learn to live with everyone and lead by example. We need to let the truth do its own work.

I am sorry for anyone I have offended, especially Steven John.

G-d bless you brother,
all is forgiven, you never really offended me maybe i just let myself become frustrated. if i ever posted hard against you without good consideration of how it is for you i too am sorry to you.

I have admired your zeal, well directed it is an awesome gift for building his Kingdom for His glory.

May you and yours be blessed with abundance of His goodness.

 

[qwerk]

I dont say what you are posting is wrong as there are many varied interpretations of sharia law.

Could you quote me your source, at the mosque where i live everyone is encouraged to question everything.

peace and blessings

Sharia laws are based on the Quran, Hadith and Sira the later two are combined and called the Sunnah, so it isn’t that varied. Mostly it depends on the guy in power and how lenient he is towards the hypocrites and unbelievers.

Quran 2:108 Rather you wish to put questions to your Messenger, as Musa was questioned
before; and whoever adopts unbelief instead of faith, he indeed has lost the
right direction of the way. (I.E: Do not question me, but obey me.)

To question anything in Islam makes them an apostate. (f1.3) Someone raised among Muslims who denies the obligations …<snip… or denies something else which there is scholarly consensus (see b.7) and which is necessarily known as being from the religion,… thereby becomes an unbeliever (kafir) and is executed for his unbelief.

(b.7)
The things defined as ‘scholary consensus’ are in (b.7) and I will paraphrase because I don’t want to type all of it. It would be best if you think that Islam is so great, I would suggest buying the book of Sharia laws for yourself. The first place to get defined are Jihad, Zakat and find out about dhimmi, etc. It is very telling.

But I digress and some of the things mentioned in b.7 are here: b7.3 The proof of the legal authority of scholarly consensus is that just as Allah has ordered the believers, in the Koran, to obey him and his messenger, so too he has ordered them to obey those of authority among them, saying,

"O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the prophet and those of authority among you (Koran 4:59),

such that when those of authority in legal expertise, …, agree upon a ruling, it is obligatory in the very words of the Koran to folow them and carry out their judgement.

And Allah threatens those who oppose the messenger and follow other than the believers’ way, saying,

‘Whoever contraverts the messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the believers’ way, We shall give him over to what he has turned to and roast im in hell, and how evil an outcome’ (Koran 4:115).

It goes on but basically the believer becomes the unbeliever - or kafir as they use this term interchangeably.

Muhammad was not happy over questions to him as we see in some hadith:
Volume 9, Book 92, Number 391:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, “Leave me as I leave you) for the people who were before you were ruined because of their questions and their differences over their prophets. So, if I forbid you to do something, then keep away from it. And if I order you to do something, then do of it as much as you can.”

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 395:
Narrated Warrad:

(The clerk of Al-Mughira) Muawiya wrote to Al-Mughira ‘Write to me what you have heard from Allah’s Apostle.’ …… He also wrote to him that the Prophet used to forbid (1) Qil and Qal (idle useless talk or that you talk too much about others), (2) Asking too many questions (in disputed Religious matters);…