Catholics...For Your Advise.

[Javl]

I understand totally that the sacraments can save us… it is what is also believed by us Lutherans… not trying to offend anyone and I apologize in advance if anyone reads this the wrong way.

One question: do the sacraments still save if they are taken (as in the Eucharist) by a person who does not hold the fundamental beliefs of the Trinity and Jesus being the Son of God? If a person goes for Eucharist (or Holy Communion) whose heart is not clean and who has not asked forgiveness, still saved by the sacraments?

I am simply asking this to clarify something that I was taught as a youth. That it is “By grace, by faith, by Your Word alone” that we are saved and not just the sacraments that we partake in. We are taught to think the best of everyone and thus would never dream that someone would soil the Eucharistic Table by coming to it with a heart of an unbeliever, but it does happen.

The answers to your questions is No. You must hold the fundamental beliefs and be in a state of grace to receive the saving effects of the sacraments. God will let you know when you are in a state of grace. After confessing your sins and are totaly contrite of heart you will feel an overwhelming feeling of peace and joy. That is Saving Grace. For those that receive the sacraments unworthily, they commit a sacrelige, which is a mortal sin. If a person commits a mortal sin and does not confess and ask forgiveness and then dies, that person condemns Him/herself to hell ( God does not condemn us, we do ). I hope this helps. God bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Lapey]

Very interesting post.

Anna

Ok…I give?

 

[Anna_Scott]

I agree with you, and I’ll give a simple example of why.

I went to a training seminar recently given by a priest, he happens to be the canonist for our diocese, and the topic was the sacrament of matrimony. His first statement was a question, “do you believe that salvation is contained within the sacrament of matrimony?” To give you a heads up, this was a group of deacons, and I am a candidate to be ordained by the end of next year.

No one answered and he exploded. He explained exactly as you did, if Gods Grace flows through this sacrament, then salvation is contained within it; as you know we are saved by Grace! We cannot do anything to save ourselves!

I guess it is semantics; sacramental Grace doesn’t replace the sacrifice in which Jesus bought our redemption. This Grace is the redemption in which Jesus bought for us on the Cross!!!

This Grace, contained within the Church Sacraments, is the free gift of salvation in which Jesus offers us, it is our decision to accept it all or just a fraction of His gift. I receive Graces daily from Christ within my marriage. This was not always true, however. Not the part that the saving Grace was not there, the fact that I wasn’t open to receiving these Graces was the reason my marriage was mediocre. My marriage is stronger now than I ever thought it could be. My wife and I openly talk about helping each other accept this Grace. I tell my wife and treat her in a manner in which she knows I want her to be there in the Kingdom with me, I think she wants the same for me…I hope…lol

I hope I explained my thoughts well.

Very interesting post.

Anna

Ok…I give?

Being Protestant, I have never heard the Sacraments explained this way. So, I’m “pondering.”

Anna

 

[Lapey]

Being Protestant, I have never heard the Sacraments explained this way. So, I’m “pondering.”

Anna

Cool…glad that i was able to cause “pondering”. Pondering is quite good, you know.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Cool…glad that i was able to cause “pondering”. Pondering is quite good, you know.

Yes, “pondering” is good for the soul.

Anna

 

[jmcrae]

No offense I hope, just trying to make Catholics ‘see’ how some of us think.

1 – If the Sacraments themselves can save, doesn’t that mean that if a deviously evil man were to also partake of the Holy Communion, he would join you in your heaven?

Not if he had not repented of his sins. The Sacraments are the means of grace. Grace is the blood and water flowing from the side of Christ, washing us clean from our sins and giving us the strength to live the Christian life. They flow to us through the Sacraments, just like water in a river flows through the plumbing to get into your kitchen sink. The pipes are not the water; they are the means by which the water flows into your sink - the Sacraments are not the grace of God; they are the means by which the grace of God comes to us.

But if you partake of the Sacraments (other than Baptism and Confession, which are the Sacraments that wash away our sins) in a state of mortal sin, then it’s like sticking chewing gum in the pipes - the Grace does not flow, in that case.

2 – If Mary was the mother of God, just because she gave birth to Jesus who is God, doesn’t that mean that if you put the foetus of humans into the body of a monkey, then that monkey would be the mother of humans? (no offense, but it’s the closest analogy I can think of).

Your mother is not your Creator; however, she does give you her DNA, and you do have to be of the same species as she is, in order for her to be your mother. Jesus was 100% human, and He received His humanity from Mary, His mother. That she gave birth to Him means that His divinity was also contained in her womb, and she gave birth to God the Second Person. She did not create Him; however, she did give Him her DNA, and then bear Him in her womb, and then give birth to Him, and afterwards, she also cared for Him and raised Him up with nourishing food, good clothes, a home to live in, a good education, and a profession to follow, so that He could make His living in this world.

3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture like what some people here say to explain why they do not follow certain scriptural teachings, wouldn’t that be refuting what God taught? So, is God the master or the disciple?

The Scriptures are not an instruction manual. They tell us where we came from and how we got from there to here, but to know what we should do, we need to look to the Church, since the Scriptures show us many different eras of history, where many different things were required at one time, but were no longer required later on (compare the Book of Acts to the Book of Leviticus, and you’ll see what I mean) - a person looking to Scripture alone for instruction could become very confused, I think.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Not if he had not repented of his sins. The Sacraments are the means of grace. Grace is the blood and water flowing from the side of Christ, washing us clean from our sins and giving us the strength to live the Christian life. They flow to us through the Sacraments, just like water in a river flows through the plumbing to get into your kitchen sink. The pipes are not the water; they are the means by which the water flows into your sink - the Sacraments are not the grace of God; they are the means by which the grace of God comes to us.

But if you partake of the Sacraments (other than Baptism and Confession, which are the Sacraments that wash away our sins) in a state of mortal sin, then it’s like sticking chewing gum in the pipes - the Grace does not flow, in that case.

Your mother is not your Creator; however, she does give you her DNA, and you do have to be of the same species as she is, in order for her to be your mother. Jesus was 100% human, and He received His humanity from Mary, His mother. That she gave birth to Him means that His divinity was also contained in her womb, and she gave birth to God the Second Person. She did not create Him; however, she did give Him her DNA, and then bear Him in her womb, and then give birth to Him, and afterwards, she also cared for Him and raised Him up with nourishing food, good clothes, a home to live in, a good education, and a profession to follow, so that He could make His living in this world.

The Scriptures are not an instruction manual. They tell us where we came from and how we got from there to here, but to know what we should do, we need to look to the Church, since the Scriptures show us many different eras of history, where many different things were required at one time, but were no longer required later on (compare the Book of Acts to the Book of Leviticus, and you’ll see what I mean) - a person looking to Scripture alone for instruction could become very confused, I think.

Jmcrae,

If you can get through to Mosacked, then you deserve some kind of special medal. :bowdown2:

Anna

 

[jmcrae]

Jmcrae,

If you can get through to Mosacked, then you deserve some kind of special medal. :bowdown2:

Anna

No effort is ever wasted. God will use it to good purpose, even if we can’t see what it is, right now.

 

[Anna_Scott]

No effort is ever wasted. God will use it to good purpose, even if we can’t see what it is, right now.

May God bless you for your kindness.

Between Mosacked and AmericanJosiah, I’m absolutely exhausted. :imsorry:

Anna

 

[Javl]

Yes, “pondering” is good for the soul.

Anna

Without pondering or questioning, how can you learn?

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

May God bless you for your kindness.

Between Mosacked and AmericanJosiah, I’m absolutely exhausted. :imsorry:

Anna

And you all have done a terrific job! Now, if there’s only a crack where the Holy Spirit can get in…

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Being Protestant, I have never heard the Sacraments explained this way. So, I’m “pondering.”

Anna

Here is another way to think about the general idea behind a sacrament:

First remember that God has always worked through men and things: Always. Men were prophets and men wrote the scriptures, with God working through them. A Sacrament is a visible sign that we can see to know that the Holy Spirit is perform ing an action which that sign symbolizes.

Here is a good example of the sacramental principle. When Moses raised his staff over the waters and split the Red Sea, who really parted the waters, God or Moses? It was God of course. BUT: The visible sign that the people could see was Moses raising his staff. God provided the people with a visible sign as he worked his miracle. Basically, that is the sacramental principle: A visible sign which God works through.

So today it is the same. Take Baptism: The visible sign we see is the water being poured over the person, and what we do not see is the miracle of God washing away that person’s sins. This is the sacramental principle.

Now take confession. The visible sign we see is the priest holding his hands over us a speaking the words “I absolve you of your sin IN THE NAME OF the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” What we do NOT see is Christ working through the sacrament to effect what the sacrament signifies, which is the forgiveness of sins.

An interesting example (sort of) of this principle is Jesus rubbing mud in the blind man’s eyes. What was it that cured the man’s blindness, the mud, or Jesus? Jesus did of course. So why did he bother with the mud? Because God always works through men and things.

 

[rinnie]

I agree with you, and I’ll give a simple example of why.

I went to a training seminar recently given by a priest, he happens to be the canonist for our diocese, and the topic was the sacrament of matrimony. His first statement was a question, “do you believe that salvation is contained within the sacrament of matrimony?” To give you a heads up, this was a group of deacons, and I am a candidate to be ordained by the end of next year.

No one answered and he exploded. He explained exactly as you did, if Gods Grace flows through this sacrament, then salvation is contained within it; as you know we are saved by Grace! We cannot do anything to save ourselves!

I guess it is semantics; sacramental Grace doesn’t replace the sacrifice in which Jesus bought our redemption. This Grace is the redemption in which Jesus bought for us on the Cross!!!

This Grace, contained within the Church Sacraments, is the free gift of salvation in which Jesus offers us, it is our decision to accept it all or just a fraction of His gift. I receive Graces daily from Christ within my marriage. This was not always true, however. Not the part that the saving Grace was not there, the fact that I wasn’t open to receiving these Graces was the reason my marriage was mediocre. My marriage is stronger now than I ever thought it could be. My wife and I openly talk about helping each other accept this Grace. I tell my wife and treat her in a manner in which she knows I want her to be there in the Kingdom with me, I think she wants the same for me…I hope…lol

I hope I explained my thoughts well.

You did very well, and thank-you for your imput. What I think people that are not Catholic fail to realize is that it is BECAUSE of The death on the Cross that Jesus left us the sacramemts. After his death he left them for us so we can acquire eternal life. My daughter got married last year and I told her that marriage before God was the big deal. You had your rings blessed, you received a great sacrament from God in your marriage its his grace that will help you two to make it. I told her marriage is hard enough with his Grace I could not IMAGINE without his Grace.

By us confessing our sins, taking advantage of the great sacraments Christ left us by no means takes away his blood on the cross. We as Catholics know its because of his death on the cross that the sacraments are even possible.

God Bless you are you new journey in the faith. I am sure you will find it very rewarding. I am also getting more involved with the Church. Not to the degree that you are but I am doing more and more for the Church. I have taken for 47 years. Now its time to give back a little. But my husband and I have both learned the more we do for the Church, the more Grace we get from God, without ever expecting it in return.But isn’t that just like God the more you try to give him, the more he ends up giving you.

And God bless you and your wife, and I know what you mean. I just wish more people could see this. There would be ten times less anxiety meds and ten times less divorces if they could just see what we see. And its all a free gift from God. But People are just to busy to get that communion from him every Sunday, daily actually if you want. I tell my kids that communion every Sunday is a Free Grace from God that will carry you through the week. But People don’t accept it:shrug:

 

[Anna_Scott]

And you all have done a terrific job! Now, if there’s only a crack where the Holy Spirit can get in…

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Javl,

Re: The Holy Spirit, do you mean for me?

Anna

 

[Lapey]

You did very well, and thank-you for your imput. What I think people that are not Catholic fail to realize is that it is BECAUSE of The death on the Cross that Jesus left us the sacramemts. After his death he left them for us so we can acquire eternal life. My daughter got married last year and I told her that marriage before God was the big deal. You had your rings blessed, you received a great sacrament from God in your marriage its his grace that will help you two to make it. I told her marriage is hard enough with his Grace I could not IMAGINE without his Grace.

By us confessing our sins, taking advantage of the great sacraments Christ left us by no means takes away his blood on the cross. We as Catholics know its because of his death on the cross that the sacraments are even possible.

God Bless you are you new journey in the faith. I am sure you will find it very rewarding. I am also getting more involved with the Church. Not to the degree that you are but I am doing more and more for the Church. I have taken for 47 years. Now its time to give back a little. But my husband and I have both learned the more we do for the Church, the more Grace we get from God, without ever expecting it in return.But isn’t that just like God the more you try to give him, the more he ends up giving you.

And God bless you and your wife, and I know what you mean. I just wish more people could see this. There would be ten times less anxiety meds and ten times less divorces if they could just see what we see. And its all a free gift from God. But People are just to busy to get that communion from him every Sunday, daily actually if you want. I tell my kids that communion every Sunday is a Free Grace from God that will carry you through the week. But People don’t accept it:shrug:

Thanks for the kind words rinnie. God bless you and your husband too. I am going back to watch the Saints game. Sorry but my 15 year old daughter is calling me out because I am on the computer and not with the family watching the game.

Good night all…God bless.

 

[Javl]

Javl,

Re: The Holy Spirit, do you mean for me?

Anna

Right now for the two hardheads…sorry to use that description, but…

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Anna_Scott]

Here is another way to think about the general idea behind a sacrament:

First remember that God has always worked through men and things: Always. Men were prophets and men wrote the scriptures, with God working through them. A Sacrament is a visible sign that we can see to know that the Holy Spirit is perform ing an action which that sign symbolizes.

Here is a good example of the sacramental principle. When Moses raised his staff over the waters and split the Red Sea, who really parted the waters, God or Moses? It was God of course. BUT: The visible sign that the people could see was Moses raising his staff. God provided the people with a visible sign as he worked his miracle. Basically, that is the sacramental principle: A visible sign which God works through.

So today it is the same. Take Baptism: The visible sign we see is the water being poured over the person, and what we do not see is the miracle of God washing away that person’s sins. This is the sacramental principle.

Now take confession. The visible sign we see is the priest holding his hands over us a speaking the words “I absolve you of your sin IN THE NAME OF the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” What we do NOT see is Christ working through the sacrament to effect what the sacrament signifies, which is the forgiveness of sins.

An interesting example (sort of) of this principle is Jesus rubbing mud in the blind man’s eyes. What was it that cured the man’s blindness, the mud, or Jesus? Jesus did of course. So why did he bother with the mud? Because God always works through men and things.

Irish,

This explanation touches my heart. I can’t really explain it.

The Protestant Churches I’ve attended most of my life, never really speak of “Sacraments.”

The Catholic Eucharist is entirely different from the Protestant “Lord’s Supper.” I’ve seen numerous discussions on the forums. The Eucharist is on the list of things I am “pondering” these days.

I don’t know what is going on with me these days. While there are many Catholic beliefs that I’m not sure I can accept; I seem to agree with the Catholic forum members more often than I agree with my Protestant brethren. I don’t know what to say.

I just keep studying and praying.

Anna

 

[Javl]

Irish,

This explanation touches my heart. I can’t really explain it.

The Protestant Churches I’ve attended most of my life, never really speak of “Sacraments.”

The Catholic Eucharist is entirely different from the Protestant “Lord’s Supper.” I’ve seen numerous discussions on the forums. The Eucharist is on the list of things I am “pondering” these days.

I don’t know what is going on with me these days. While there are many Catholic beliefs that I’m not sure I can accept; I seem to agree with the Catholic forum members more often than I agree with my Protestant brethren. I don’t know what to say.

I just keep studying and praying.

Anna

The Eucharist is at the center of our worship of God. For with Jesus’ words, He is truly present and with us. God Bless.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Adonia]

No offense I hope, just trying to make Catholics ‘see’ how some of us think.

1 – If the Sacraments themselves can save, doesn’t that mean that if a deviously evil man were to also partake of the Holy Communion, he would join you in your heaven? (please don’t reply and say he wouldn’t attend because even the evil Pharisees went for baptism at the Jordan river)

2 – If Mary was the mother of God, just because she gave birth to Jesus who is God, doesn’t that mean that if you put the foetus of humans into the body of a monkey, then that monkey would be the mother of humans? (no offense, but it’s the closest analogy I can think of).

3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture like what some people here say to explain why they do not follow certain scriptural teachings, wouldn’t that be refuting what God taught? So, is God the master or the disciple?

Hope to see some clear and objective answers.

.

Answer to question 1. Many fundamentalists that I have talked to run around with the" Are you saved" question. Just because you have accepted Christ “as your personal Savior”, this does not mean you are saved. If you go out and sin on a regular basis you are keeping yourself apart from God. We belive Christ is the Savior of all men, the Sacraments are the means to help us live a holy life. We are commanded by Our Lord to eat his body and drink his blood, (the Eucharist) on a regular basis. This gives us life. The other Sacraments are also very important. They are “sacred” actions.

Answer to question 2.Mary is the mother of God. His physical body is her physical body. Please don’t blaspheme the Blessed Mother. You blaspheme her, you blaspheme her Son

Answer to question 3. The Catholic Church is not “above scripture”. The Catholic Church is the earthy embodiment of scripture. It 's like this my friens. We belive that Christ built his church on St. Peter, the rock, (whose bones rest in ther Vatican by the way), and he was given tohe power to “bind and loose” here on earth. This power is apostolic, it was passed down from St. Peter to todays Bennedict the 16th. What the Pontiff says in relation to religious teaching is ok by me. They have been in the business for some 2000 yrs. You don’t have to believe, but I do.

 

[Mosacked]

Mosackd

I am a little curious here. The Bible in Ephesians 4:11 specifically mentions that God gave us the gift of teachers. In the following verses it explains why.

Do you think God would give us something we do not need?

You have to take the Bible in context with the whole Bible. You just can’t rip 1 John 2:27 out and totally neglect Ephesians 4;11?

I have another question for you to think about.

Do you think it would be ok for you to decide that in your personal canon that you do not recognize the book of Hebrews? If not, what is it exactly that is preventing you from doing so?

Remember I am not Catholic myself.

Firstly, there’s no need for the differentiation in your reply between catholics/non-catholics. I am merely taking the scripture as it so speaks.

Teachers…yes…but to whom??? To the anointed ones???

Evangelists…yes…to whom??? To the un-informed or the baptized???

The context is there…but did you see it?

.