I
Irish_Catholic_1
Guest
When you said 1 John 2:27 speaks to the hierarchy of the “Roman Rite”, it seemed to me that you were saying that we have no need for the hierarchy, which is the teaching authority established by Christ
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B
Bill_Pick
Guest
What do you feed your monkeymtry this18 “All power”… See here the warrant and commission of the apostles and their successors, the bishops and pastors of Christ’s church. He received from his Father all power in heaven and in earth: and in virtue of this power, he sends them (even as his Father sent him, St. John 20. 21) to teach and disciple, not one, but all nations; and instruct them in all truths: and that he may assist them effectually in the execution of this commission, he promises to be with them, not for three or four hundred years only, but all days, even to the consummation of the world. How then could the Catholic Church ever go astray; having always with her pastors, as is here promised, Christ himself, who is the way, the truth, and the life. St. John 14.Don’t take it so hard, Anna. I’ve been in the same boat myself and had to be taken down a peg or two. Charity, patience and fortitude! God Bless.
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
I
Irish_Catholic_1
Guest
As sympathetic as I am to your position, I don’t know that I’d call it “hateful”.
Perhaps “ignorant” would be more accurate
M
Mosacked
Guest
Thanks Anna, I’m not quitting, just don’t wish to cause too much hurt to some ‘sensitive’ people.
Irish,
you have on numerous occasions quoted scripture out of whack.
Let me just ask…if you are not yet a disciple, would you be anointed? And if you’re not yet anointed, are the communication lines even open??? If you don’t know the person and the person doesn’t know you, how do you two talk???
The verse you quoted clearly refers to teaching those who have YET to know God-Jesus.
For those who have already been anointed, they communicate with God directly. See 1 John 2:27 again.
.
I
Irish_Catholic_1
Guest
So you communicate with God directly, eh?
Tell me, if that is so, then why are almost all of Paul’s letters written to already existing Christians communities for the purpose of correcting errors they had fallen into? If they communicated with God, why were they all* screwing up*?
You are so far wrong, you’re about a thousand light years PAST the planet “Wrong”
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Mosacked:
Do you attend any type of church service or Bible class? Have you ever relied upon a commentary in a Study Bible?
I’m really curious about this, because every time we sit in any type of Bible class or church service; the leader is quoting Scripture and then explaining his/her interpretation of that Scripture. I am a Protestant, and I know this is the case in Protestant Churches.
If we need nothing beyond Scripture, that would mean that every Protestant Bible Class and every Protestant sermon could only contain the reading of Scripture. There could be no “teaching” regarding what Scripture means, or even how to apply it to our lives.
The point is that “tradition” is inescapable in Christianity. It is just a matter of the “tradition” you accept. Basically, Protestants traded the “tradition” of the early church fathers for the “tradition” of the Protestant Reformers.
If “Scripture alone” was sufficient, we wouldn’t have a gazillion Protestant Churches with a gazillion different interpretations of Scripture. I am exaggerating a bit here, probably because I haven’t come to terms with the many belief systems within Protestantism (it bothers me a great deal.)
Interpretation of Scripture creates “tradition,” whether the tradition is 5 minutes old or 2,000 years old. It took me a while to grasp this. When I first came to CAF, I argued Sola Scriptura. I had long discussions with some very patient forum members. I finally had to admit that the interpretation of Scripture is shaped by some form of tradition or commentary.
I am constantly amazed by the patience of Catholic and Orthodox Forum Members–and others who accept the role of tradition–who have to go through this discussion, every time a new Protestant Member hits the forums with the same arguments.
So, Mosacked, when you read a response, here; before planning the strategy of your next post; consider the words spoken, and really think it over. A little “pondering” is good for the soul.
In Pursuit of God’s Truth,
Anna
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Irish,
Forgive me for breaking in here, but you really made me laugh.
I may need to borrow this “line” sometime.
Anna
J
Javl
Guest
It’s nice to boast that one is self-taught. But, without a teacher how does one know what is right or pertinent? Without a teacher one can miss many important and necessary points. Without a teacher how do you know how to apply what you have “learned”? Also, without a teacher, one can go into serious error.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
J
Javl
Guest
K
kfinstad
Guest
I see. Nonetheless, to me it is a verse, which speaks to the hierarchy, to the exclusion of teaching, in other words, there is a clear need for teaching, protecting, and handing on the faith; nonetheless, there can be within the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, the Roman Rite in particular, because I have little or no familiarity with anything outside it, except briefly–there can be “exclusion”, and I use the word, loosely, of others, because they either are, or are percieved to be low on the totem pole: a failing student may view the teacher as untouchable, because the teacher is viewing the failing student, as untouchable and therefore, the one in particular, whom the teacher is to teach is neglected, and authority is misdirected to the student excelling in the class, to teach the failing student: as a matter of hierarchical structure. The excelling student should have the opportunity to teach, yes, although it would be sensible to begin a student at teaching, those who are sufficiently able themselves to go with little instruction, only requiring further attention as what an excelling student may provide. This is of course, a different matter in some respects, at the university level, and varies with the university.
Saints and sinners appear to be recognized at times, in this capacity, the person who wrote the verses from scripture, was addressing the need for a priest, in confession, as opposed to simply going to God, in confession. The need for a priest may vary, from person-to-person, and from time-to-time, across a person’s own lifespan: we may be stimuated to be more contrite with a priest present, and more cautious about what we say, in confession, because although, the ethical standards for keeping private in confession, what we confess, is adhered to–there is our own loose tongue about such matters, then it can be all to easy at times, to assume, one has been identified outside the confessional as a match to a particular sin, and sinner, that has been floating around some rumor mill–much of it, can simply be imagination; nonetheless, the discomfort of the matter, may drive one more to confession between God, and sinner, rather than God, sinner, and priest. This is breaking away, somewhat, from the hierarchical structure within Catholicism, assumed to be there, or stated by those known at times, to be there. To me, those verses addressed, the personal aspect of faith, the assurance of Jesus being with us, and the strength present in our lives, to adhere to God’s Ten Commandments.
Hope I am more clear now.
P
peary
Guest
M
Mosacked
Guest
Because Communication <> Obedience.
- Did not even Satan spoke with God about Job? Does it mean Satan obeys God? Sorry, but your questions are seriously immature.
M
Mosacked
Guest
Anna, as I have quoted you previously direct from Scripture, we need NOBODY to teach us. This is true and not false.
I have attended numerous Bible Classes myself only to be practically brought to tears with the absurd '‘interpretations’ of scripture. The truth is, there is NO interpretation…the Bible tells it as it is, and as best as the language can carry. It is us humans who ADD onto what we “think” God is trying to tell us.
Let me give you an very simple example…what did 1 John 2:27 say about needing nobody to teach us? It just says NOBODY right? Yet, we are NOT able to accept this teaching because we THINK, we will need somebody to teach us…WHY? Because we don’t know how, don’t know where and don’t know when we will ever know…so we ASK…humans.
But have you EVER tried asking GOD ?
.
A
AmateurPianist
Guest
Mosackd
I am a little curious here. The Bible in Ephesians 4:11 specifically mentions that God gave us the gift of teachers. In the following verses it explains why.
Do you think God would give us something we do not need?
You have to take the Bible in context with the whole Bible. You just can’t rip 1 John 2:27 out and totally neglect Ephesians 4;11?
I have another question for you to think about.
Do you think it would be ok for you to decide that in your personal canon that you do not recognize the book of Hebrews? If not, what is it exactly that is preventing you from doing so?
Remember I am not Catholic myself.
J
Javl
Guest
Mosacked:
You have plenty of questions to answer. Here is one more: Why did Jesus send the Paraclete ( Holy Spirit ) to teach us all things? Since, as you say, we need no teachers, the Holy Spirit then is not needed.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
You have plenty of questions to answer. Here is one more: Why did Jesus send the Paraclete ( Holy Spirit ) to teach us all things? Since, as you say, we need no teachers, the Holy Spirit then is not needed.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
L
Lapey
Guest
My dear brother Mosacked,
You claim to “not want to insult,” then you insult. Your entire purpose here is to insult, because you feel yourself to be superior. It is the way you put your “thinking” into “letters” which has a prescribed meaning, it is the way of hatred. You quote God’s word in ways in which your intent is clear, to inflict damage to your foe. Jesus does not teach hatred, nor does He instruct us to cause bitterness or to use His Word as a sword.
By the way, me pointing out your insult does not say I am too sensitive, however it does point out your arrogance and ignorance. Both of these traits are dangerous, but together they can, and have been, deadly; both physically and spiritually.
I have to say that I appreciate the replies from ZacIsaiah, Ralphinal and Gabriel12. All of you can be sure that I read ALL of your posts. I do not post this question in an attempt to insult…it is really just putting my ‘thinking’ into letters.
Mosacked
Firstly, I must state that I came to the conclusion that sacraments themselves save the soul because that was the persistent & prevalent position undertaken by almost all the catholics I have spoken to so far. So yes, your clarification here really helps. The next time, a catholic who attempts to excuse non-compliance to scripture and tells me that the sacrament themselves save, I’ll refer them to you.
Lapey
Firstly, I would say you probably haven’t had many meaningful conversations with Catholics (notice this word when used as a proper noun referring to specific people is CAPITALIZED) because all of your effort and emotion is about proving the Church wrong; therefore you will turn off many of the people who you claim to want to learn from. The fact that you purposely left that name in lower case is evidence of your attempt to demean Catholics. I see it as deliberate by your use of the “caps lock” key whenever it is useful to you, you know kind of the way you use scripture; when it helps your game.
Next time a Catholic attempts to “excuse non-compliance to scripture”, you should listen to him and research what is being said and how it applies to scripture. Chances are you will learn something. The Church does not contradict what scripture teaches in any way. But one must realize one’s motives and preconceived notions to see where the truth is. What you do when reading and studying scripture is called “proof texting”. You read into scripture what you want it to mean to obtain a predetermined outcome. Scripture is not a weapon, it is medicine that heals! You quote 1 John as a weapon; I will quote 1 John as a warning such as God gave Ezekiel 3:18-19.
1 John 4:20, “If anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.”
This verse is pretty much self explanatory, don’t you think….brother?
Mosacked
Secondly, the analogy of the monkey-human is the closest analogy I can think of. So, far I have not received a convincingly satisfactory reply on this except for the one by ZacIsaiah who replied that it is MERELY a title. Yet it is a title too big for my digestion, because to me, God has no beginning and so He cannot have a mother.
Lapey
You already have the answer that you seek, so why ask? No matter what we Catholics say you won’t believe or listen to anything we have to say. What’s the point? I say your point is hate; there are many web sites that you can find others who also hate Catholics, why not go there?
*Mosacked
Finally, before we can conclude that the Church is above scripture, we must first PROVE beyond a doubt that it is the True Church led personally by Jesus. Since that cannot be achieved, how then can I agree with the stand that this church has the right to over-write???
Let’s clear it one step at a time.*
Lapey
Finally, the only person spewing this type of ignorance is you; the Catholic Church is not above scripture, never has She stated this nor will She attempt to make such a statement. The fact that Jesus taught the twelve and the eleven remaining started the Church that you disagree with can be traced; this has been achieved, you just choose to ignore history. One has to be open minded to attempt to see why others may believe that differs from your beliefs. You don’t have to agree with other views, but you must be respectful, which you have not.
You claim to “not want to insult,” then you insult. Your entire purpose here is to insult, because you feel yourself to be superior. It is the way you put your “thinking” into “letters” which has a prescribed meaning, it is the way of hatred. You quote God’s word in ways in which your intent is clear, to inflict damage to your foe. Jesus does not teach hatred, nor does He instruct us to cause bitterness or to use His Word as a sword.
By the way, me pointing out your insult does not say I am too sensitive, however it does point out your arrogance and ignorance. Both of these traits are dangerous, but together they can, and have been, deadly; both physically and spiritually.
I have to say that I appreciate the replies from ZacIsaiah, Ralphinal and Gabriel12. All of you can be sure that I read ALL of your posts. I do not post this question in an attempt to insult…it is really just putting my ‘thinking’ into letters.
Mosacked
Firstly, I must state that I came to the conclusion that sacraments themselves save the soul because that was the persistent & prevalent position undertaken by almost all the catholics I have spoken to so far. So yes, your clarification here really helps. The next time, a catholic who attempts to excuse non-compliance to scripture and tells me that the sacrament themselves save, I’ll refer them to you.
Lapey
Firstly, I would say you probably haven’t had many meaningful conversations with Catholics (notice this word when used as a proper noun referring to specific people is CAPITALIZED) because all of your effort and emotion is about proving the Church wrong; therefore you will turn off many of the people who you claim to want to learn from. The fact that you purposely left that name in lower case is evidence of your attempt to demean Catholics. I see it as deliberate by your use of the “caps lock” key whenever it is useful to you, you know kind of the way you use scripture; when it helps your game.
Next time a Catholic attempts to “excuse non-compliance to scripture”, you should listen to him and research what is being said and how it applies to scripture. Chances are you will learn something. The Church does not contradict what scripture teaches in any way. But one must realize one’s motives and preconceived notions to see where the truth is. What you do when reading and studying scripture is called “proof texting”. You read into scripture what you want it to mean to obtain a predetermined outcome. Scripture is not a weapon, it is medicine that heals! You quote 1 John as a weapon; I will quote 1 John as a warning such as God gave Ezekiel 3:18-19.
1 John 4:20, “If anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.”
This verse is pretty much self explanatory, don’t you think….brother?
Mosacked
Secondly, the analogy of the monkey-human is the closest analogy I can think of. So, far I have not received a convincingly satisfactory reply on this except for the one by ZacIsaiah who replied that it is MERELY a title. Yet it is a title too big for my digestion, because to me, God has no beginning and so He cannot have a mother.
Lapey
You already have the answer that you seek, so why ask? No matter what we Catholics say you won’t believe or listen to anything we have to say. What’s the point? I say your point is hate; there are many web sites that you can find others who also hate Catholics, why not go there?
*Mosacked
Finally, before we can conclude that the Church is above scripture, we must first PROVE beyond a doubt that it is the True Church led personally by Jesus. Since that cannot be achieved, how then can I agree with the stand that this church has the right to over-write???
Let’s clear it one step at a time.*
Lapey
Finally, the only person spewing this type of ignorance is you; the Catholic Church is not above scripture, never has She stated this nor will She attempt to make such a statement. The fact that Jesus taught the twelve and the eleven remaining started the Church that you disagree with can be traced; this has been achieved, you just choose to ignore history. One has to be open minded to attempt to see why others may believe that differs from your beliefs. You don’t have to agree with other views, but you must be respectful, which you have not.
T
Tomster
Guest
T
Tomster
Guest
WOW! A teacher telling us we do not need a teacher. Go figure. :whacky:
I
Irish_Catholic_1
Guest
Like I said in a previous post, people seem to be missing a little irony here: In 1 John 2:27, when John says you do not need anyone to teach you, who is saying that? John is! He is offering a teaching here. So if we shouldn’t have teachers, then you should not listen to that verse. There’s an irony for you, which disproves Mosacks premise
T
Tomster
Guest
Well, I guess Jesus was wrong when he told the Apostles “Going therefore, teach ye all nations . . . teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matthew 19-20). This teaching is infallible: “And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world” (ibid.).
Blow the dust off of your Bible, please, and read it.
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