Catholics have it wrong?

[love4mary]

My son’s former baptist pastor did a “Doctrinal Two Step” that would have Dancing With the Stars proud when he tried to use scripture to dis-prove the Eucharist to me. Tried to tell me it was pure symbolism.

A long time friend of mine, a German Lutheran also went to great lengths trying to prove that, although Jesus was “present” in the bread, He left right after communion. This same friend also insisted that Catholics pray to statues as if they were gods.

Each of these faiths say the other got it wrong in reguards to some of the major doctrines, like baptism and communion. and they Both say Catholics blew it, so how do these protestant faiths determine who is right or who is wrong? or do they not waste their time with each other and both just turn to the Catholics?

 

[Deconi]

I am surprised at some of the things I see on this board.
Jesus taught us to go directly to the Father - Anybody heard of
Our Father Who art in heaven…

Honestly, and coming from a catholic, I have troubles in my heart about this. I rarely pray to the saints for intercession but rather pray to God in praise and thanksgiving. If there is something specific I still tend to go to the source, or to Jesus.

I don’t begrudge anyone asking the saints or Blessed Mother to intercede but to say that we cannot approach God the Father directly flies in the face of Jesus own words.

James

**Our Lord will hear a ‘sigh,’ know its source and reason and respond as He Wills. Being Omniscient, I would wager He knows all our thoughts also. Therefore, He hears EVERY prayer. The fact Our Lord came down here, walked, ate and laughed with his friends, defines with clarity how approachable He is. **

I merely tried to point out, whilst anyone can pray to God, some forget or ignore WHO or WHAT He Is. The Sovereign, Holy. The King of Kings! (Hence, the analogies) Just because He is a Loving Father who accepts His children at any time and circumstance, we should not forget ourselves and what we are!

**The context of my point is that the Protestants hold to not requiring, needing or understanding the Catholic concept of intercession!

“…and I ask the Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and to you my brothers and sisters, to pray for me, to The Lord, Our God.” **

According to Protestant thought, whilst some of the above mentioned people are ALREADY in The Throne Room of God, interceding on our behalf, the Pastors of Protestantism, can just saunter PAST all of them and ‘deliver’ his prayer to The Almighty. Insolence, again, I say.

We all look for a personal relationship with Our Father. But He is still The Holiest of Holy, King. Maybe some people have had that ‘personal relationship’ with Our Maker for so long that they can just run on in there and give the Ol’ Man a hug and a cuddle! Just be mindful of the cradle Catholic guy who knows he’s a sinner, lying face down before Our Holy Father because he is in ‘fear and trembling’ to look up!

 

[JRKH]

…According to Protestant thought, whilst some of the above mentioned people are ALREADY in The Throne Room of God, interceding on our behalf, the Pastors of Protestantism, can just saunter PAST all of them and ‘deliver’ his prayer to The Almighty. ** Insolence, again, I say.**

Well Look out 'cause this Catholic is just as insolent. Why? because I pray as Jesus taught us.
To each their own.

We all look for a personal relationship with Our Father. But He is still The Holiest of Holy, King. Maybe some people have had that ‘personal relationship’ with Our Maker for so long that they can just run on in there and give the Ol’ Man a hug and a cuddle! Just be mindful of the cradle Catholic guy who knows he’s a sinner, lying face down before Our Holy Father because he is in ‘fear and trembling’ to look up!

Yes all men are sinful and fall short of the Gory of God, and yet it is our Lord and Saviour Jesus himself, who knows better than anyone how sinful we are, who encourages us to take our petitions directly to the Father.

(From Luke ch 11)
2He (Jesus) said to them, "When you pray, say:
" ‘Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3Give us each day our daily bread.
***4Forgive us ***our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And ***lead us ***not into temptation.’ "

9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your ***Father ***in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

If Jesus himself encourages us to pray directly to the father, why should we fear to do so? More importantly, why should we denigrate those who do? Most importantly, why should we disobey Jesus who taught us to pray to the father.

As I said earlier, I do not begrudge those who ask for the intercession of the saints. I have done it too. However I also do not begrudge those who feel it is unnecessary. For, while the Church allows and encourages prayers of intercession, they are not mandatory. We are free to use them or not as we feel moved by the spirit.

Peace
James

 

[po18guy]

Nobody is accusing catholics of worshipping the saints as God. Thats why I posted the link to new advent. For everyone to see the level of worship catholics are giving to saints.

And you, who have zero faith, are judging this as if it’s the next scandal? May mother nature have mercy on you!

 

[maryj]

Hebrews 4:14-16

**Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. **

**For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. **

Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”Draw near with confidence to the throne of grace.”

Who needs Mary and the saints, when one can draw near to God, on his own, and receive mercy, and grace? :ehh:

And yet we see the Greeks(Greeks not used here in a nationalistic sense) of John 12:20 who go to Phillip and ask him sir we sould like to see Jesus" Phillip went and told Andrew : then Andrew and Phillip went to see Jesus. Novemeber 30 is the feast day of St. Andrew held by both the latin and Greek churches.

 

[Deconi]

Well Look out 'cause this Catholic is just as insolent. Why? because I pray as Jesus taught us.
To each their own.

Yes all men are sinful and fall short of the Gory of God, and yet it is our Lord and Saviour Jesus himself, who knows better than anyone how sinful we are, who encourages us to take our petitions directly to the Father.

If Jesus himself encourages us to pray directly to the father, why should we fear to do so? More importantly, why should we denigrate those who do? Most importantly, why should we disobey Jesus who taught us to pray to the father.

As I said earlier, I do not begrudge those who ask for the intercession of the saints. I have done it too. However I also do not begrudge those who feel it is unnecessary. For, while the Church allows and encourages prayers of intercession, they are not mandatory. We are free to use them or not as we feel moved by the spirit.

Peace
James

James, everything you say is true.

Since you clearly miss my point, I’ll take it as a demonstrative example of why ‘others’ (except ‘bengal’ ) have also.

Peace.

 

[JRKH]

And yet we see the Greeks(Greeks not used here in a nationalistic sense) of John 12:20 who go to Phillip and ask him sir we sould like to see Jesus" Phillip went and told Andrew : then Andrew and Phillip went to see Jesus. Novemeber 30 is the feast day of St. Andrew held by both the latin and Greek churches.

What bearing can this passage have on the issue. This relates to humans talking to humans while Jesus is still with us.

Hebrews, written after Jesus ascended, clearly encourages us to pray directly to the Father.
Jesus also tells us to pray directly to the Father.
So what is the problem with praying to the Father?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

James, everything you say is true.

Since you clearly miss my point, I’ll take it as a demonstrative example of why ‘others’ (except ‘bengal’ ) have also.

Peace.

I guess you’re right. I’ve missed something. I reread the posts and don’t see where I missed anything.
My point was just that I find it somewhat insulting to our Protestant bretheren to refer to their praying directly to The Father as being insolent. I wanted to do this in a kindly manner so as not to derail the thread but there is something wrong when one Christian feels it is insolence for another Christian to “saunter past” the saints and appeal directly to the Father.

When one calls another insolent for praying in the manner Jesus himself taught us, I think it is time for that person to re-evaluate the weight they give to the various forms of prayer and to their relationship with the Father.

In Peace
James

 

[peary]

The only thing that Protestants seem to agree on is that the Catholic Church is wrong.

 

[Gara3987]

Rev. Bertrand L. Conway answered a question about Praying to the Saints and Our Blessed Mother Back in 1929; I will Post it here, he explains it very well.
**
**
**-Question-
**
Why do Catholics pray to the Virgin and the Saints? Is not Christ the One Mediator of God and men (1 Tim. ii. 5) and our One Advocate with the Father (1 John ii. 1)?

-Answer by Rev. Bertrand L. Conway-
The Church’s teaching on the invocation of the saints is thus defined by the Council of Trent. "The saints, who reign together with Christ, offer up their own prayers to God for men. It is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid and help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son Jesus Christ, who alone is our Redeemer and Savior. Those persons think impiously who deny that the saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invoked; who assert that they do not pray for men; who declare that asking them to pray for each of us in particular is idolatry, repugnant to the word of God, and opposed to the honor of the One Mediator of God and men, Christ Jesus’’ (Sess. xxv.).

The Old and New Testament plainly teach the principle and the practice of asking the prayers of our brethren, especially of the just (James v. 16-18). God commanded Abimelech to ask Abraham’s prayers: “He shall pray for thee and thou shalt live” (Gen. xx. 7, 17). God had mercy on the sinful children of Israel in the desert because Moses interceded for them (Ps. xv. 23). God said to the friends of Job: “My servant Job shall pray for you; his face I will accept” (Job xliii. 8). St. Paul in his letters continually asked the brethren to pray for him (Rom. xv. 30; Eph. vi. 18, 19; 1 Thess. v. 25).

Is it reasonable to suppose that the Christian, who prayed for his brethren while upon earth, will lose all interest in them, once he reaches the kingdom of heaven? The Christian tradition from the beginning declares that the interest of the Saints in heaven will be increased a hundredfold, because they will realize then more fully our needs and necessities, and God's willingness to hearken to their intercession. St. Jerome (340-420) is a striking witness to this fact. He writes: "If Apostles and martyrs, whilst still in the flesh and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, their victories, their triumphs. Moses, one man, obtains God's pardon for six hundred thousand armed men, and Stephen prays for his persecutors. When they are with Christ will they be less powerful? St. Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were granted to his prayers, whilst they were in the ship with him. Shall he close his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his gospel? (Adv. Vigil)

That the angels pray for men we learn from the vision of Zacharias (i. 12, 13), and from the words of the angel Raphael tc Tobias: “When thou didst pray with tears … I offered thy prayer to the Lord” (Tob. xii. 12). Christ Himself tells us that they have an interest in us, for He says: “There shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance” (Luke xv. 10). In another place He warns men not to scandalize little children, for they have angels to intercede for them in heaven (Matt, xviii. 10). If the angels make intercession for us, certainly the saints, who are united to us by the bond of a common human nature, and by the supernatural bond of the Communion of Saints, have the same power and the same privilege.

The early Fathers unanimously teach the doctrine of the intercession of the saints.

St. Hilary (366) writes: “To those who would fain stand, neither the guardianship of the saints, nor the protection of the angels is wanting” {In Ps., cxxiv.).

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386) writes: “We then commemorate those who have fallen asleep before us, patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, and martyrs, in order that God, by their prayers and intercessions, may receive our petitions” (Myst., v., 9).

 

[Gara3987]

Continuation of

**-Question-
**
Why do Catholics pray to the Virgin and the Saints? Is not Christ the One Mediator of God and men (1 Tim. ii. 5) and our One Advocate with the Father (1 John ii. 1)?

St. John Chrysostom (344-407) writes: “When thou per-ceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies . . . but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power” (Orat., viii., Adv. Jus., 6).

Catholics firmly believe in the unique mediatorship of Jesus Christ (1 Tim. ii. 5), and the Council of Trent emphasizes this very doctrine when declaring her teaching on the invocation of saints. Catholics believe that Jesus Christ alone redeemed us by His Death upon the Cross, thus reconciling us to God, and making us partakers of His grace here and His glory hereafter. No divine gift can reach us except through Christ and the merits of His Sacred Passion. Therefore, every prayer we pray, and every prayer in heaven of the Blessed Virgin, the angels and the saints, have their efficacy only through Jesus Christ our Lord. The saints simply add their prayers to ours, and, although specially pleasing to God because of their greater holiness, they aid us only through the merits of the One Mediator.

 

[Gara3987]

I also Noticed some posts on Infallibility and just so happen to have documentation (an answer) done by Rt. Rev. Msgr. A. J. Burke Censor Librorum done in 1957. It is also an excellent explanation.

    **Q. Just what do Catholics understand by the infallibility of the pope? This seems to be one of the things which non-Catholics find most objectionable in the Church. All men are capable of error. How can you believe that a mistake is impossible for any man?**


   A. Of course the doctrine of infallibility does not mean that the pope cannot make mistakes or commit sins. If it did we could not possibly believe in it, because history tells us of whopping boners some popes have pulled and of shocking sins a few of them have committed. 

  Infallibility does not mean that the pope is inspired as were the writers of Sacred Scripture to express the word of God; neither does it mean that the pope has doctrines privately revealed to him. He must learn his doctrine even as you and I, by studying and meditating it; in doubt he must consult and seek advice; in expressing himself he probably furrows his brow and thumbs his dictionary and bites his pen like most writing mortals. 

  In a way infallibility is a negative sort of thing; it does not tell the pope what to say, but it keeps him from saying the wrong thing in the limited area in which it is effective.

  But we are starting at this thing all wrong. The infallibility of the pope is but one phase or aspect of the infallibility of the Church. We must understand the broader doctrine first.

  Isolated teachings of the Church do not always make sense when you pull them out of context. Truth is integral, and one doctrine supposes many others which explain it and on which it rests. So infallibility supposes:

  1) that God became man to redeem and sanctify us,

  2) that while He was on earth Jesus Christ taught us many truths about God and about ourselves, about our purpose in life and the means of achieving that purpose-truths that are of vital importance to our salvation,

  3) that He established a visible church to bring knowledge of His teachings and the means of salvation to all men in all lands and all ages,

  4) that He intended all men to belong to this Church and imposed on them the obligation of accepting its teachings (Matt. 28, 18-20; Mark 16, 15-16),


 5) that He wanted this Church to be one in faith and worship, and prayed that it should have such unity (John 17, 11-20),

  6) that He promised to remain with His Church all days even to the end of the world (Matt. 28, 20),

    7) that He promised to send the Holy Spirit to abide with His Church and teach His followers to observe all the things He had commanded (John 14, 16-26),

and

 

[Gara3987]

Continuation of

I also Noticed some posts on Infallibility and just so happen to have documentation (an answer) done by Rt. Rev. Msgr. A. J. Burke Censor Librorum done in 1957. It is also an excellent explanation.

    **Q. Just what do Catholics understand by the infallibility of the pope? This seems to be one of the things which non-Catholics find most objectionable in the Church. All men are capable of error. How can you believe that a mistake is impossible for any man?**

1. that He promised His Church that the gates of hell shall not prevail against her (Matt. 16, 18). The gates of hell are the forces of evil, and the greatest evil which can beset a teaching organization is that it be entangled in error.
   
   Obviously I cannot at this time attempt to prove the truth of all these doctrines to you. Suffice to say that we Catholics hold all of them firmly and that in the light of them infallibility makes striking good sense. If you reject one or another of them you pull out the doctrinal foundation of infallibility.
   
   As we see it, Jesus Christ was wasting His time in teaching the great truths of God and heaven if He didn’t give us some assurance of getting His teachings straight and understanding their meaning. The things He taught could never be known except through His word; they cannot be verified experimentally, by observation or trial and error, like the truths of science. And they are so deep and complex that it is hard to understand them completely and surely.
   
   It is true that many of His teachings were written down, with God’s inspiration. But by the time they were written He was no longer on earth. So if there were no reliable teaching authority left on earth how would we ever know which books contained His true teachings and which were only imitations? And even if we did know which books were genuine, how could we be sure that they contained all His teachings, that everything essential was written down, or that some books were not lost? And even if we knew we had all the books, how could we be sure that we understood their meaning properly? Actually men who reject such teaching authority disagree widely and bitterly on the meaning of Scripture.
   
   As we see it Christ could never have required that all men belong to His Church and accept its teachings—as He did require (Mark 16, 16)—unless He gave some guarantee that this Church would teach the truth. Can you imagine the good and just Lord saying: “I suppose this old Church will get clear off the doctrinal track and teach you all sorts of errors, but still he who hears her hears Me, and he who believes not will be condemned.”?
   
   Can you imagine Christ remaining with a Church which was teaching things contrary to truth and goodness? And yet He promised “I am with you all days, even unto the consummation of the world” (Matt. 18, 20).
   
   Can you imagine the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, living in an organization which was all fouled up in doctrinal errors?
   
   Infallibility is a simple and natural result of Christ’s remaining with His Church and keeping His divine hand on it. Infallibility simply means that the divinely appointed teacher is doing a good reliable job of teaching.
   
   Infallibility simply means that God, who became man to teach His doctrines and gave His human life to vitalize and sanctify His teaching Church, is now expending the minimum of divine effort required to prevent His teaching work from being a dismal failure.

 

[Gara3987]

Continuation of

I also Noticed some posts on Infallibility and just so happen to have documentation (an answer) done by Rt. Rev. Msgr. A. J. Burke Censor Librorum done in 1957. It is also an excellent explanation.

    **Q. Just what do Catholics understand by the infallibility of the pope? This seems to be one of the things which non-Catholics find most objectionable in the Church. All men are capable of error. How can you believe that a mistake is impossible for any man?**

Infallibility means that the universal Church of Christ is protected from teaching error in the restricted areas of faith and morality. It means that the Church as a whole, at any given time and in all ages, has the true faith.

  The divine care which results in infallibility is given primarily to the Church. The pope is infallible only because he is the visible head of the Church. The head leads the body. So if the pope were to head off in the wrong direction the whole Church would soon be astray. In a negative sense we might say that the pope is infallible so that the Church will be protected from him. In a complete sense, his infallibility is for the welfare of the Church—for its doctrinal security and integrity.

  Papal infallibility is a restricted thing. It is effective only when the pope speaks ex cathedra— from the Chair of Peter, as it were. He does that when he teaches solemnly and officially as head of the Church, clearly defining or declaring matters of faith and morals in such way as to make his decisions binding on the whole Church.

 

[po18guy]

For our bible Christian brothers and sisters, does not scripture itself attest to this? Witness:

(Luke 20:38) “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

(Matthew 17:3) Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

(Mark 9:4) And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

If those who are alive on earth can pray, surely those who are in eternal life may also do so:

(Revelation 5:8) And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

(Revelation 8:3) Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.

(Revelation 8:4) The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.

We condemn ourselves when we think as men, and not as God.

 

[Jestocost]

^ all this misunderstandings about the bible is Jesus’ & the Apostles’ fault. If only they’ve been clearer on the more important subjects.

Jesus asked the apostles, “Who do you think I am?”. The apostles said “You are God”. And Jesus said, “You have spoken the truth but preach this not until the Son of God had returned to the Father”.

Jesus said, “Peter, you are the Rock. And upon you I will build my Church. And your supreme authority will be inherited by your successors”.

Book of Acts: “Mary was a virgin all her life until her assencion into to become the Queen of heaven. And the diciples never ceased praying to her for intercession”

If such things were written in the bible, Jesus’ prayer “May they be one” would have been a reality to this day. Sucks that God cant answer that prayer of Jesus. All because the apostles were too short sighted.

These statements would have been interpreted in a hundred different ways over the course of 2,000 years as well. This is why Jesus didn’t write a book for us, he founded a Church. Then he sent the Holy Spirit to guide it and protect it from error. There were heresies from the very beginning (Judaizers for example). The Church is the mechanism to guide them back to the truth.

 

[walt2000]

I have been studying Revelations for over thirty five years.
And I can tell you that the prod’s( have it all wronge.)
If they can tell me what the SEVEN THUNDERS SAID TO THE CHURCHS as in Revelations 10/4,with out leaveing Revelations as In Revelations 22/18then I will say they have it right.walt2000

 

[lak611]

I have been studying Revelations for over thirty five years.
And I can tell you that the prod’s( have it all wronge.)
If they can tell me what the SEVEN THUNDERS SAID TO THE CHURCHS as in Revelations 10/4,with out leaveing Revelations as In Revelations 22/18then I will say they have it right.walt2000

What does this post have to do with this thread? We are not discussing the book of Revelation here.

 

[coleraine]

What does this post have to do with this thread? We are not discussing the book of Revelation here.

no but were talking about herecy

 

[boppaid]

Will a Southern Baptist worship in a Methodist church and believe all that is taught?

Will a Church of God of Prophesy worship in a Freewill Baptist church and believe all that is taught?

The one thing that most every denomination had in common was that the “Catholics have it wrong” which is why you should worship with us (Name your Protestant denomination here). Seems like maybe they may also believe that each other have it wrong as well, least in part.

These questions popped into my head when I had my conversion and needed to know where I should worship (former atheist).

for clarification, when I say “Taught”, I am refering to Official Doctrin of that particular faith.

The reason, I believe, is because most every Protestant denomination believes in faith alone, scripture alone. This is what binds them. This is why the claim that there are over 33,000 protestant denominations is inaccurate. The only difference amoung most of those “denominations” is worship style. Of course there are exceptions, but I don’t believe there are many.