Catholics in US overwhelmingly support homosexual unions [CWN]

[beehumble]

Thanks for the sincere reply. I do find these three statements contradictory, but I will leave it at that. I understand fully that Catholics consider some forms of sexuality “grave sin.” My church never taught such a thing about consensual adult non-reproductive sex. But I belonged to and was raised in a liberal Protestant church. And it still shows.

Your welcome, and God bless you.

(If I said anything contradictory then I didn’t explain it well enough and I am sorry about that. Keep in mind the Catholic Church does not know if someone who had most likely engaged in a sinful sexual act of any kind repented before he or she died.

All that can be said is the *general *doctrine that if someone did engage in such act and did not repent he or she is in hell.

But as to whether a *specific *person repented or not before death, that is between God and that person. And as said, it is never too late to repent. So the Church never says who is in hell - it does not know such things - it does not know who sincerely repented before death.

At the cross, the “good” thief (thievery is obviously not a virtuous way of life) repented just before death, and Jesus told him he would be in paradise with Him. To the other thief who mocked Jesus and His teachings even with his last few breaths, Christ was silent.

God bless.

 

[estesbob]

Wait.

Fewer than 6 in the entire Bible on any topic?

Or fewer than 6 on this topic of homosexuality?

And I wonder what you mean by “definitive”? Do you mean that the RCC lets us read the Onan story as NOT literally about extra-vaginal ejaculation?

I’m afraid you are operating on the mistaken assumption that the Catholic Church is the Bible only church. As I said there are very very few verses that the church has given binding interpretations of-John:6 being an example. The Church teaches that masturbation is a sin regardless of how one chooses to interpret the first is about Onan.

Church doctrine rests on a three legged stool, so to speak. Scripture, tradition, and the unerring teachings of the magisterium. Again that is why I wonder why you kept arguing about whether one had a literal interpretation of Scriptureas it is totally irrelevant to church teaching on the immorality the of homosexual behavior

 

[estesbob]

Is this a certainty? And are all that majority of Catholics who support civil unions going to hell if they don’t repent that political position?

No. The Catholic Church is a church of sinners. Homosexual behavior is a serious sin but the church would never state that anybody went to hell.

 

[larkin31]

Your welcome, and God bless you.

(If I said anything contradictory then I didn’t explain it well enough and I am sorry about that. Keep in mind the Catholic Church does not know if someone who had most likely engaged in a sinful sexual act of any kind repented before he or she died.

All that can be said is the *general *doctrine that if someone did engage in such act and did not repent he or she is in hell.

But as to whether a *specific *person repented or not before death, that is between God and that person. And as said, it is never too late to repent. So the Church never says who is in hell - it does not know such things - it does not know who sincerely repented before death.

At the cross, the “good” thief (thievery is obviously not a virtuous way of life) repented just before death, and Jesus told him he would be in paradise with Him. To the other thief who mocked Jesus and His teachings even with his last few breaths, Christ was silent.

God bless.

Thanks again for the sincerity and sharing in a congenial tone. I see what you actually mean now. This is, actually, how I have always seen the Catholic position on this. Thus my surprise with how you initially put it above. But this is clearer now.

 

[larkin31]

No. The Catholic Church is a church of sinners. Homosexual behavior is a serious sin but the church would never state that anybody went to hell.

Yes, thanks. This is what I thought to be the case and would be very surprised to hear otherwise.

But we learn each day!

 

[larkin31]

I’m afraid you are operating on the mistaken assumption that the Catholic Church is the Bible only church. As I said there are very very few verses that the church has given binding interpretations of-John:6 being an example. The Church teaches that masturbation is a sin regardless of how one chooses to interpret the first is about Onan.

Church doctrine rests on a three legged stool, so to speak. Scripture, tradition, and the unerring teachings of the magisterium. Again that is why I wonder why you kept arguing about whether one had a literal interpretation of Scriptureas it is totally irrelevant to church teaching on the immorality the of homosexual behavior

The poster referred to a Biblical event as justification for a moral position. I took this to mean that the Catholic church did this as well. Onan has been used against my arguments very specifically. Bible verses are used all the time at CA to support dogma, and nearly every bit of dogma that gets referred to me includes biblical references. I fully know that the RCC uses more than just biblical references, but is it not fair to say that it rarely excludes it from its reasoning? Sodom and Gomorrah are used explicitly in support of the RCC position on sexual immorality of homosexuality. Either you take it as a true account or you don’t. Either you believe that God did destroy a city, or you don’t. This is why I was asking about literalism. No one at my church taught that a literal city was ever literally destroyed. We always read this as a sexual more of the time transcribed INTO the bible rather than an actual punishment and edict from God.

 

[edwest2]

Thanks for the sincere reply. I do find these three statements contradictory, but I will leave it at that. I understand fully that Catholics consider some forms of sexuality “grave sin.” My church never taught such a thing about consensual adult non-reproductive sex. But I belonged to and was raised in a liberal Protestant church. And it still shows.

The Church teaches that all sex outside of marriage is wrong. Jesus told us that to look at a woman and lust after her in our heart is to commit adultery. He was telling us the facts.

A recent tactic of gay marriage supporters is to try to say current Catholics are so out of control sexually that what’s the big deal with two men or two women marrying? That the outside world worked so hard to divide men and women is rarely mentioned. The Church is well aware of the current hyper-sexualization of Western culture. But it did not happen overnight. It happened in stages all designed to reach this point. It’s time to stop, repent of our adulteries and fornications – instead of embracing them – and ask God’s mercy. His infinite mercy.

God bless,
Ed

 

[jackangelo1]

was this a “Yes, God controls plate tectonics each day” or a “No, plate tectonics occur due to the results of gravity and rotation of the earth and the physical nature of the geology of the earth”?

larkin Easy quetion? Yes God not only controls PLATES, but the whole earth and everything in it including Geology,Science, Earth quakes, HGurricanes, Tornados,AND I believe wholedheartedly,that God punishes His people with Earthly disruptions, otherwise,why did he tell Noah about the flood ? and why did he tell Abraham and Lot why He destroyed Sodom?? and how about The Exodus?? Remember Moses?? Did anybody ever read Revelation?? maybe we should prepare ourselves???

 

[Layman]

Either you believe that God did destroy a city, or you don’t. This is why I was asking about literalism. No one at my church taught that a literal city was ever literally destroyed. We always read this as a sexual more of the time transcribed INTO the bible rather than an actual punishment and edict from God.

Why could a grossly immoral city not be destroyed? Cities get destroyed all the time. The state of California, promoter of many vices, sits on a major fault line, I understand.

God doesn’t have to work miracles all the time for His will to be effected. But sometimes, He does work them.

If you read the Old Testament, God is constantly venting His wrath upon His Chosen People because they backslide into vice and paganism. If you lead a mystical life as a person and society and then break the convenant you’ve made, there are consequences.

Implosion, attack from without, destruction.

I’m quite prepared to believe he directly destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their iniquity and as an example to others. The locals coming around to a man’s house and demanding to ***** his guests shows they were pretty far gone as a society.

We can’t believe people could be so bad. What modern pagans don’t realise is that our remote ancestors probably got up to pretty foul things in their temples and back rooms.

An occultist I read once said that when in classical accounts of pagan ceremonies the author uses an ellipsis (…) what’s left out is as bad or worse than you think.

They weren’t all flowing robes and flowers. Not at all.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Why could a grossly immoral city not be destroyed? Cities get destroyed all the time. The state of California, promoter of many vices, sits on a major fault line, I understand.

Listen to yourself – condemning an entire state. If you meant this as a joke, don’t quit your day job. I wonder if that’s why God put a fault line under so many impoverished Third World countries as well, with large sections of their countries destroyed by earthquakes. Maybe the poor in developing countries are also “promoters of many vices.” That’s why they suffer tsunamis, volanoes, hurricanes, monsoons as well, wiping out hundreds of villages, farmlands, entire cities. In your world view, God’s a charming fellow.

 

[larkin31]

Listen to yourself – condemning an entire state. If you meant this as a joke, don’t quit your day job. I wonder if that’s why God put a fault line under so many impoverished Third World countries as well, with large sections of their countries destroyed by earthquakes. Maybe the poor in developing countries are also “promoters of many vices.” That’s why they suffer tsunamis, volanoes, hurricanes, monsoons as well, wiping out hundreds of villages, farmlands, entire cities. In your world view, God’s a charming fellow.

I think–if I just read this right–that you and I agree on something for the first time.

 

[estesbob]

Why could a grossly immoral city not be destroyed? Cities get destroyed all the time. The state of California, promoter of many vices, sits on a major fault line, I understand.

God doesn’t have to work miracles all the time for His will to be effected. But sometimes, He does work them.

If you read the Old Testament, God is constantly venting His wrath upon His Chosen People because they backslide into vice and paganism. If you lead a mystical life as a person and society and then break the convenant you’ve made, there are consequences.

Implosion, attack from without, destruction.

I’m quite prepared to believe he directly destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their iniquity and as an example to others. The locals coming around to a man’s house and demanding to ***** his guests shows they were pretty far gone as a society.

We can’t believe people could be so bad. What modern pagans don’t realise is that our remote ancestors probably got up to pretty foul things in their temples and back rooms.

An occultist I read once said that when in classical accounts of pagan ceremonies the author uses an ellipsis (…) what’s left out is as bad or worse than you think.

They weren’t all flowing robes and flowers. Not at all.

With the coming of the new covenant punishment became much more spiritually based then physically based. Jesus promised eternal salvation to those who followed his way. He did not promise earthly destruction for those who did not. The Catholic Church does not preach that we are visited upon by physical suffering for sinning -in fact it preaches the exact opposite, that through prayer and asking for the intersession of God and his saints ,physical suffering on this earth can be alleviated. There is a huge difference between that teaching and what you are proposing.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I think–if I just read this right–that you and I agree on something for the first time.

You read that correctly. I wouldn’t exaggerate, though, about “the first time.” I don’t register every agreement and disagreement with every CAF poster, or literally I would never sleep. There are probably selective other occasions when I have agreed with you.

 

[larkin31]

You read that correctly. I wouldn’t exaggerate, though, about “the first time.” I don’t register every agreement and disagreement with every CAF poster, or literally I would never sleep. There are probably selective other occasions when I have agreed with you.

fair enough

good point

and same with me

 

[phoenixrrt62]

Actually you’d be surprised how many weekly (and even daily) mass attendees are in favor of gay marriage,.

And, see…well, if you don’t want your religion to lose adherents, do you think in future the stance on same sex relationships will change?
Just a thought…you have to have members to keep your church afloat…

 

[StTommyMore]

And, see…well, if you don’t want your religion to lose adherents, do you think in future the stance on same sex relationships will change?
Just a thought…you have to have members to keep your church afloat…

The Church does not change to make it more palatable to the world. The world hates the Church, as it always has.

 

[Layman]

Listen to yourself – condemning an entire state. If you meant this as a joke, don’t quit your day job. I wonder if that’s why God put a fault line under so many impoverished Third World countries as well, with large sections of their countries destroyed by earthquakes. Maybe the poor in developing countries are also “promoters of many vices.” That’s why they suffer tsunamis, volanoes, hurricanes, monsoons as well, wiping out hundreds of villages, farmlands, entire cities. In your world view, God’s a charming fellow.

I was not joking. The proposal, as I understand it, is that God wouldn’t directly wipe out an entire city e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah. That this act should be interpreted metaphorically, is that correct?

I propose that evil societies do get wiped out, for the following reasons:

They are given over to vice or various kinds, so the following occurs:

1. They collapse from within: rule of law breaks down, family bonds are broken, the leaders become corrupt.
2. They are then attacked from outside.

Mostly, this looks like natural decay. Sometimes, He sends a message.

I do not think God allows vicious persons or societies to thrive for long. They have their day, then WHAM! There is a natural and supernatural cause to their destruction. He will not let them spread their errors forever.

A hidden cause to the destruction of persons, families, cities and societies is black magic and ‘paganism’ i.e. sorcery. It’s commonplace in the Third World and it’s undergoing a revival in the West. In essence, all magic is appealing to spirits to do things for you. This is contrary to the First Commandment: Christianity 101.

Even followers of major religions like Hindusim appeal to various ‘gods’ for favours. They get the local ‘priest’ around for an exorcism and pay him a lot of money. Their problems stop for a while. Then they come back.

So you have a country where a great many people are doing dirty things in secret. They pollute the psychic atmosphere of their locale and destruction follows.

And sometimes, of course, the volcano just blows up.

 

[Layman]

through prayer and asking for the intersession of God and his saints ,physical suffering on this earth can be alleviated. There is a huge difference between that teaching and what you are proposing.

Certainly, this makes a difference. I have read that the atmosophere in Christian countries is noticeably different. I am concerned, however, about the reversion in the West to sympathy for various forms of sorcery. And many counries aren’t Christian at all. Or even Godly.

Westerners think they’re re-discovering hidden knowledge that the Church doesn’t want them to know. When in fact they’re making a very old mistake, which their remote ancestors gave up as a bad job.

 

[jackangelo1]

Why could a grossly immoral city not be destroyed? Cities get destroyed all the time. The state of California, promoter of many vices, sits on a major fault line, I understand.

God doesn’t have to work miracles all the time for His will to be effected. But sometimes, He does work them.

If you read the Old Testament, God is constantly venting His wrath upon His Chosen People because they backslide into vice and paganism. If you lead a mystical life as a person and society and then break the convenant you’ve made, there are consequences.

Implosion, attack from without, destruction.

I’m quite prepared to believe he directly destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their iniquity and as an example to others. The locals coming around to a man’s house and demanding to ***** his guests shows they were pretty far gone as a society.

We can’t believe people could be so bad. What modern pagans don’t realise is that our remote ancestors probably got up to pretty foul things in their temples and back rooms.

An occultist I read once said that when in classical accounts of pagan ceremonies the author uses an ellipsis (…) what’s left out is as bad or worse than you think.

They weren’t all flowing robes and flowers. Not at all.

I believe God does punish his people with devistation, Take Katrina , the hurricane that hit New Orleans, 6 months before Katrina, several homosexual groups got permits to hold the largest Gay Pride Celebration in America at New Orleans ,for a date 2 weeks after Katrina hit God intervened before the gays could show their perverted lifestyle.

 

[StTommyMore]

I believe God does punish his people with devistation, Take Katrina , the hurricane that hit New Orleans, 6 months before Katrina, several homosexual groups got permits to hold the largest Gay Pride Celebration in America at New Orleans ,for a date 2 weeks after Katrina hit God intervened before the gays could show their perverted lifestyle.

Dos Go punih the just for the crimes of the unjust?