Catholics in US overwhelmingly support homosexual unions [CWN]

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I don’t know what Catholic doctrine is on this point but:
  1. He knows His own and they will join Him;
  2. Not everyone dies in a natural disaster;
  3. I think in the old Testament He said on one occasion that just would be killed along with the unjust, but don’t quote me on that.
Evil happens in the world because:
  1. Men do evil;
  2. Devils inspire and do evil;
  3. Good people are sanctified by suffering;
  4. People pay for their sins in this life also.
We can’t see the totality of His operation in the World. A man falls to his knees on a battlefield and wails “How could God allow this???”. The man doesn’t have the overview God has.
 
Layman said:
I don’t know what Catholic doctrine is on this point but:
  1. He knows His own and they will join Him;
  2. Not everyone dies in a natural disaster;
  3. I think in the old Testament He said on one occasion that just would be killed along with the unjust, but don’t quote me on that.
Evil happens in the world because:
  1. Men do evil;
  2. Devils inspire and do evil;
  3. Good people are sanctified by suffering;
  4. People pay for their sins in this life also.
We can’t see the totality of His operation in the World. A man falls to his knees on a battlefield and wails “How could God allow this???”. The man doesn’t have the overview God has.
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not only the wicked die in natural disasters. Your view of God i that of wrathful avenger, not merciful savior.
 
This assumes that the death of the body would be an unjust punishment for the Just. It isn’t. From God’s perspective, they will be united with Him. Their race is run. It was just shorter than the three score years and ten mortal man sees as his due.
 
QUOTE=Layman;7239170]This assumes that the death of the body is a bad thing for the Just. It isn’t.
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:clapping::clapping:

I don’t know whether God causes natural disasters or not, but I do know that He allows them. Perhaps we have violated His Natural Law to a point where His universe turns on us?? Perhaps He’s just bringing the people who are killed home to live with Him…out of this vale of tears & suffering. Not too long ago, a poster named Scooby(something) posted the following & I liked his/her words so well that I’ll quote them here:

Nothing happens without God’s permission. Some things He “causes” to happen. Some things He “allows” to happen.
**But nothing happens without His permission. **
 
Layman said:
This assumes that the death of the body would be an unjust punishment for the Just. It isn’t. From God’s perspective, they will be united with Him. Their race is run. It was just shorter than the three score years and ten mortal man sees as his due.
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This kind of inanity is why the world thinks us foolish. You are arguing that death is punishment and reward at one and the same time. This is completely irrational. Remember that Catholicism is a union of faith and reason. You cannot disregard reason
 
Layman said:
This assumes that the death of the body would be an unjust punishment for the Just. It isn’t. From God’s perspective, they will be united with Him. Their race is run. It was just shorter than the three score years and ten mortal man sees as his due.
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Since the death of body is not punishment then why would God not just wait three score more years until the unjust begin suffering eternal damnation ?
 
StTommyMore said:
This kind of inanity is why the world thinks us foolish. You are arguing that death is punishment and reward at one and the same time. This is completely irrational. Remember that Catholicism is a union of faith and reason. You cannot disregard reason
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This is exactly what happens when one relies on a personal interpretation of Scripture. You are correct that he is arguing that death is punishment and reward at the same time!
 
Death can be a reward and punishment at the same time. The unjust go to Hell and the righteous go to Heaven or Purgatory.
 
estesbob said:
Since the death of body is not punishment then why would God not just wait three score more years until the unjust begin suffering eternal damnation ?
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Because that, if I understand your proposition, would mean ‘one mortal course for all’.
 
jackangelo1 said:
I believe God does punish his people with devistation, Take Katrina , the hurricane that hit New Orleans, 6 months before Katrina, several homosexual groups got permits to hold the largest Gay Pride Celebration in America at New Orleans ,for a date 2 weeks after Katrina hit God intervened before the gays could show their perverted lifestyle.
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wow

Is this an example of the nexus of Catholic “faith and reason”?
 
Layman said:
II propose that evil societies do get wiped out, for the following reasons:

They are given over to vice or various kinds, so the following occurs:
  1. They collapse from within: rule of law breaks down, family bonds are broken, the leaders become corrupt.
  2. They are then attacked from outside.
Mostly, this looks like natural decay. Sometimes, He sends a message.
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That part I do not disagree with it. Let me say that the U.S.A. is on the road to, if not extinction, some serious disasters, including economic. Social and moral disasters have been happening and are accelerating. Environmental disasters have already been happening, due to sheer immoral greed, one of the cardinal sins. Joining that as #5 is the intellectual disaster apparent in lower standards of critical thinking and reading, lower mastery of mathematics and science, and a general acceptance of mediocrity orally and in print.
I do not think God allows vicious persons or societies to thrive for long. They have their day, then WHAM! There is a natural and supernatural cause to their destruction. He will not let them spread their errors forever.
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Perhaps. But the problem is that the reverse is not necessarily true, nor does the church teach that. (That when bad and catastrophic things happen to countries and individuals, it is God who is directly destroying, and specifically because of evil – secret or not.)
A hidden cause to the destruction of persons, families, cities and societies is black magic and ‘paganism’ i.e. sorcery. It’s commonplace in the Third World and it’s undergoing a revival in the West. In essence, all magic is appealing to spirits to do things for you. This is contrary to the First Commandment: Christianity 101.
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Even followers of major religions like Hindusim appeal to various ‘gods’ for favours. They get the local ‘priest’ around for an exorcism and pay him a lot of money. Their problems stop for a while. Then they come back.
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I seriously doubt that earthquakes have happened in places like Iraq, Turkey because a significant number of people were practicing black magic. Rather, most of their citizens are Muslim, which is monotheistic. The Church does not teach that non-Christians who live the best lives they know how (if they are) are an accident waiting to happen. Natural disasters occur in Christian countries, in largely Muslim countries, in countries where there are Muslims, Jews, Christians and Sufis,…etc.

Earthquakes happen in First World countries, too. The difference is, destruction is usually not nearly as severe because of far superior infrastructure and First Response teams.

If you’re talking natural outcomes, I agree. So countries who are ruled by oligarchies who refuse to invest in things like infrastructure and emergency services get (as a country) what they deserve when a disaster hits. Unfortunately, the bulk of the pain tends to fall on their poorer people without funds to build the well-fortified homes owned by their rich rulers.

And (slightly O/T) China, with thier cultural prejudice toward boys and against girls, and their one-child policy along with abortion and post-birth infanticide, now find themselves with too many marriageable males for the much smaller female population. (Gee, I thought the Chinese were supposed to be such geniuses at math? Hmmm. Even I predicted this one, with no advanced math degree. :hmmm: )

But direct moral cause and effect, against those who haven’t a clue what they did to ‘deserve’ such a wipe-out? That’s a primitive theology that the Church does not not teach.
 
There isn’t a direct cause and effect correlation that we can observe because we can’t see the entirety of the variables involved, including the spiritual ones.

An occultist I read said: “Good fights evil and evil fights evil”. These things get sorted out. I have close friends who live in a major Muslim country. They are of a different ethnicity to the majority. They say black magic is commonplace amongst their ethnicity. You do it yourself or you go to a local specialist.

People wonder why disaster falls but they don’t think about the offence they, their family, their townsland or their country might be giving to God. Abortion, contraception, sorcery, the 7 deadly sins lauded as good, God, Jesus and Mary mocked and St. Michael no longer invoked.

Currently, the opinion in the West in that people who burnt witches were superstitious, ignorant religious or yokels. They don’t consider that some of these people might have been up to sorcerous practices and that the locals, living in each other’s pockets, had a good idea of who was doing what.
 
Layman said:
I was not joking. The proposal, as I understand it, is that God wouldn’t directly wipe out an entire city e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah. That this act should be interpreted metaphorically, is that correct?

I propose that evil societies do get wiped out, for the following reasons:

They are given over to vice or various kinds, so the following occurs:
  1. They collapse from within: rule of law breaks down, family bonds are broken, the leaders become corrupt.
  2. They are then attacked from outside.
Mostly, this looks like natural decay. Sometimes, He sends a message.

I do not think God allows vicious persons or societies to thrive for long. They have their day, then WHAM! There is a natural and supernatural cause to their destruction. He will not let them spread their errors forever.

A hidden cause to the destruction of persons, families, cities and societies is black magic and ‘paganism’ i.e. sorcery. It’s commonplace in the Third World and it’s undergoing a revival in the West. In essence, all magic is appealing to spirits to do things for you. This is contrary to the First Commandment: Christianity 101.

Even followers of major religions like Hindusim appeal to various ‘gods’ for favours. They get the local ‘priest’ around for an exorcism and pay him a lot of money. Their problems stop for a while. Then they come back.

So you have a country where a great many people are doing dirty things in secret. They pollute the psychic atmosphere of their locale and destruction follows.

And sometimes, of course, the volcano just blows up.
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Layman said:
There isn’t a direct cause and effect correlation that we can observe because we can’t see the entirety of the variables involved, including the spiritual ones.

An occultist I read said: “Good fights evil and evil fights evil”. These things get sorted out. I have close friends who live in a major Muslim country. They are of a different ethnicity to the majority. They say black magic is commonplace amongst their ethnicity. You do it yourself or you go to a local specialist.

People wonder why disaster falls but they don’t think about the offence they, their family, their townsland or their country might be giving to God. Abortion, contraception, sorcery, the 7 deadly sins lauded as good, God, Jesus and Mary mocked and St. Michael no longer invoked.

Currently, the opinion in the West in that people who burnt witches were superstitious, ignorant religious or yokels. They don’t consider that some of these people might have been up to sorcerous practices and that the locals, living in each other’s pockets, had a good idea of who was doing what.
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please

“might have been” ?

You are going to argue from “might have been”? As grounds for execution? As grounds for accepting as “evidence” what “could not be seen”? Those people weren’t “yokels.” They were simply wrong and murderous. That the judges within a decade or so recanted should be “evidence” enough that a great injustice was perpetrated in Salem. Sure, the fear was real. But the crimes were not. And the most honest of the accused were put to death. All on “might have been.”
 
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jackangelo1:
Your talking about America ,Aren’t you?? if the Republicans didn’t slap down the Party of satan ( democrats) America would have, NO DOUBT , Recieved some horrible Disasters!
 
If you want a measured account about the current state of the historicially recent occult ‘overground’, read books by and about ‘Dion Fortune’ a.k.a Violet Firth. Occultists are unapologetic sorcerers. Some people are witches. They even advertise, these days. There are whole sections in bookshops devoted to this sort of thing. Anything from ‘love spells’ to Enochian-magic-in-easy-steps.

All witches, whether they say they are white or not, invoke demons i.e. non-Christian gods.

It’s all superstition until you are directly affected by the efforts of such people. People in the middle ages were executed for simple theft, so to express outrage at such is to judge people in hindsight: easy sport. It was the law at the time.
 
jackangelo1 said:
Your talking about America ,Aren’t you?? if the Republicans didn’t slap down the Party of satan ( democrats) America would have, NO DOUBT , Recieved some horrible Disasters!
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I’m Irish, living in the U.K. While a lot of English people seem to have very strong opinions about American politics, I try not to any more.
 
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