Catholics in US overwhelmingly support homosexual unions [CWN]

[Tigg]

That is absolutely correct. The other day, I was reading a column by George Will who identified the social engineering goals of the Obama Administration. They are all about promoting a narrow and highly dysfunctional agenda to the American people. It is all about more Folsom Street Fairs where men walk around in leather, perform sex acts in public and where gay couples distort child rearing. And they do not believe they need to have better ideas, they just need better marketing.

They are so out of touch with the average American, who they believe it is their duty to enlighten, that we voted a bunch of them out of “power” - their favorite word, a week ago. What will happen in 2012? The Obama Administration will be gone. Their elitist, distorted agenda will be gone.

God bless,
Ed

I generally agree with you, but I think this perversion goes far, far beyond the boundaries of this present administration to the very heart of post-modernist man who has decided faith is irrelevant and merely an outdated construct, and that those who have gone before us - philosophers, leaders and religious teachers have nothing of value to contribute anymore. We are in an age of “transcendence” or “enlightenment” even regarding the unchangeable truths of the Church and our pride is so great that nothing can be allowed to dictate our morals. I think what this issue is all about is freedom from traditional authority and the denial of any ultimate principles.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I generally agree with you, but I think this perversion goes far, far beyond the boundaries of this present administration to the very heart of post-modernist man who has decided faith is irrelevant and merely an outdated construct, and that those who have gone before us - philosophers, leaders and religious teachers have nothing of value to contribute anymore. We are in an age of “transcendence” or “enlightenment” even regarding the unchangeable truths of the Church and our pride is so great that nothing can be allowed to dictate our morals. I think what this issue is all about is freedom from traditional authority and the denial of any ultimate principles.

Vice-ridden societies have existed, and some exist today. They don’t necessarily last very long that way, and most don’t.

It is possible, and one hopes for it, that the American people will turn away from perversion. Certainly one hopes that Catholics do.

 

[edwest2]

Some people, and I do mean some, have become more irrational and dysfunctional.

“Man is the measure of all things.” Protagoras, 5th Century B.C.

Man is god and there is nothing greater than man.

Radical individualism - only I exist for my own interests, but I may help my fellow man from time to time.

There are no absolutes, and I believe that absolutely!

Pope Benedict has recently stated that too many people are living as if God does not exist.

That’s the problem.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Elizabeth502]

You may (or may not ) be right, but there’s an issue about consistency. A same-sex couple in a stable loving relationship may be a better alternative than, for example, a single parent who doesn’t want the child and is involved in a long bitter divorce from a dysfunctional relationship.

As has been shown so often, both on this forum, and in formal debate settings, a positive is not proved (or justified) by a negative, ever. It’s intellectually invalid and not credible.

 

[StAnastasia]

You are arguing from the particular to the general e.g.

No, I’m not arguing to the general. I’m simply telling you about two families in our parish, welcomed by the pastor and associates, by the nuns and the lay teachers, by their fellow parents, and by their childrens’ friends.

Therefore let us foster children to murderers.

I’m not sure why you are advocating this position.

I sure am tired of living in a society run by idealogues who claim that they are the educated ones.

Why don’t you move and form a new society with like-minded people?

Who delight in social engineering.

I don’t know any social engineers.

Who look around for ways to attack the established order.

I don’t know anyone like this.

 

[StAnastasia]

Children who are raised either fatherless or motherless do suffer, not necessarily visbily to society. It doesn’t mean that they can’t have productive lives, just as others who are raised motherless or fatherless by heterosexuals. But it is a loss; it is a vacancy, and there is no artificial substitute for either a mother or a father who is a regular part of the child’s life, integrated deeply and virtually daily into the family unit.

My grandfather died when my father was four years old. Are you suggesting my father turned out defective because he lacked his own father?

 

[Elizabeth502]

My grandfather died when my father was four years old. Are you suggesting my father turned out defective because he lacked his own father?

I didn’t use the word “defective.” You did. Stop putting words in people’s mouths; it’s dishonest, which also affects credibility.

What I’m suggesting is that every person – father, mother, or non-parent – will be even a fuller person, more complete, and more integrated psychologically, when he or she has access to parental figures of both genders, on a regular basis. That’s all I said. It is in fact a loss to be deprived of this, and children – the most powerless individuals in society – deserve the best opportunities that adults, who are responsible for their opportunities, can give them. That’s different from jumping to claiming someone has said “defective” when no such thing was said.

We’re not talking about accidental loss of a parent but deliberate exclusion of one gender. Huge difference.

 

[StAnastasia]

What I’m suggesting is that every person – father, mother, or non-parent – will be even a fuller person, more complete, and more integrated psychologically, when he or she has access to parental figures of both genders, on a regular basis.

I agree, and my father had such access, which no doubt helped mold him into a wonderful husband and father, a respected Catholic theologian, and a rancher and environmental activist.

It is in fact a loss to be deprived of this, and children – the most powerless individuals in society – deserve the best opportunities that adults, who are responsible for their opportunities, can give them.

Indeed – children deserve every such opportunity. The lesbian couples I know have fathers and brothers and other male friends who take active roles in loco parentis in their sons’ and daughters’ lives. Sadly, that’s more than can be said about one heterosexual couple in our school, where the husband had a midlife crisis and took off, leaving his three young sons fatherless, and his wife struggling to be both parents to them.

StAnastasia

 

[larkin31]

Point of fact: every lesbian couple is infertile, as a couple: Biology 1A.

As integrated into society as the adopted daughters of the lesbians appear to be, make no mistake: children who are raised either fatherless or motherless do suffer, not necessarily visbily to society. It doesn’t mean that they can’t have productive lives, just as others who are raised motherless or fatherless by heterosexuals. But it is a loss; it is a vacancy, and there is no artificial substitute for either a mother or a father who is a regular part of the child’s life, integrated deeply and virtually daily into the family unit. An adoptive mother is not a father, despite the secular propaganda about “gender roles” and despite how “masculine” any female “father” pretends to be. Men are not women. Not yet anyway.

Then outlaw divorce and fornication. These are MUCH GREATER producers of parent-less children.

 

[CradleCath]

My grandfather died when my father was four years old. Are you suggesting my father turned out defective because he lacked his own father?

Defective? This is almost as absurd as your use of “freshperson” to describe a first year high school girl.

No one has argued that a single-sex household raises “defective” children. However, I would say that your Father missed out on many things because his own father died & that your Grandmother carried a heavier burden than a woman who was raising a boy with a man beside her. To deliberately CHOOSE to put a young person in a single sex family, when there are other choices, seems downright cruel to me.

Add that to the fact that the child will be exposed to disordered sex daily if this couple is indeed a happy couple & you are opening up a can of worms. They will, of course, see one “daddy” kissing another, sitting on the other man’s lap. etc. ect. While adults may grow to the place where they celebrate their difference & unique qualities, children want to be the same as other children in order to “fit in”. They are easily embarrassed by even “normal” parents & to ask them to feel comfortable asking their friends to meet their two “daddies” is a bit much.

George A. Rekers, Professor of Neuropsychiatry and Behavioral Science at the University of South Carolina, one of the presenters at A symposium in Mexico: “Homosexual Adoption: What Science Has Discovered,”noted that “boys and girls adopted by lesbian and homosexual couples show a greater level of stress than that which is already generated by their status as orphans or children abandoned by their biological parents.” This situation “produces diverse trauma and behavioral disorders that can even lead to suicidal tendencies or attempts.”

catholicnewsagency.com/news/children_with_same-sex_parents_prone_to_suicide_study_reveals/

While it is too early to have definite answers about children raised by homosexuals & lesbians, common sense (a quality much lacking in today’s world) tells us that their lives will be harder than necessary.

 

[StTommyMore]

Then outlaw divorce and fornication. These are MUCH GREATER producers of parent-less children.

This is a faulty comparison. We should not make that which is immoral legal because other immoral practices are legal.

 

[estesbob]

Then outlaw divorce and fornication. These are MUCH GREATER producers of parent-less children.

The question is not whether we should outlaw homosexual marriage. The question is should the definition of marriage be expanded to cover homosexual behavior. As with any legal question it should to be let up to the will of the people and people of faith should have every right to express and lobby for their views just as people of no faith do.

 

[Layman]

No, I’m not arguing to the general. I’m simply telling you about two families in our parish, welcomed by the pastor and associates, by the nuns and the lay teachers, by their fellow parents, and by their childrens’ friends.

You are using this as an example to support an argument. Otherwise, why mention it? Some children raised by homosexuals turn out OK, therefore children generally could be raised by homosexuals. I mentioned murderers to illustrate how that reasoning is wrong.

*[Aside: I expect that the liberal project will simply implode, if only because now there will be less and less public money to throw at it.

In the UK we have plenty of social engineers. They send their children to private schools while ensuring the children of the poor are taught in schools which support tolerant, child-centred learning. A child therein may whack a teacher and remain in school. If a teacher whacks a child they will fired and prosecuted. Grades are maintained by lowering standards and giving marks for coursework. Peace is maintained by lack of discipline.

Result: 7 Grade A’s at the end of second-level education which are about equal to 3 grade C’s of the 1950’s. ]*

 

[Elizabeth502]

Then outlaw divorce and fornication. These are MUCH GREATER producers of parent-less children.

(1) Where’s your data that fornication produces “much greater” levels of children lacking both parents in their lives than the current population of gay “parents”? Most fornicators who fail to use ABC, or who use contraception inconsistently, resulting in pregnancy, abort the child or release the child for adoption. Unwed pregnancies are by far the largest category of pregnancies in abortion statistics in this country.

There is a critical mass of fornicators (especially among the Hollywood set, but some others) who deliberately choose parenthood without marriage, but by far the majority of those are couples. So the children aren’t lacking one gender, and thus your statement is even less credible than it was at the beginning.

I propose shutting down sperm banks. They were a reprehensible idea to begin with, objectively immoral, and allowing single women to access them was not only a great moral failure, but a lost opportunity for the Catholic Church to earn some moral visibility early on, in the whole spectrum of reproductive issues. They were virtually silent on the issue at the time, and frankly they have rarely addressed it at all.

(2) You can’t argue a positive from a negative. (Because X is bad, Y, which is just as bad, should add to the causes of a deprived childhood, thus magnifying the objective evil.)

(3) That said, I have proposed putting disincentives on divorce and on fornication. Such as, levy a very large fee on divorce unless there is evidence of one spouse (or children) being in danger or there being a serious mental illness of one parent, threatening the marriage. There are also disincentives that can be put on becoming unwed parents, but that would take us further O/T, since your statement is already O/T.

 

[HCC]

Re: Catholics in US overwhelmingly support homosexual unions [CWN]

Sad. We must pray for our Catholic brethren, that they will live to know God, Love God and serve God in this life, in the bosom of Holy Mother Church (with ALL that entails) and be happy with Him forever in the next.

 

[StAnastasia]

Defective? This is almost as absurd as your use of “freshperson” to describe a first year high school girl.

Absurd? That marks you as hopelessly insensitive to the nuances of language.

However, I would say that your Father missed out on many things because his own father died & that your Grandmother carried a heavier burden than a woman who was raising a boy with a man beside her.

No, my father had a very full childhood with great (name removed by moderator)ut from his uncles. I daresay he did more “guy” things than you in his youth. Of course, I don’t know you, but neither do you know him to make the arrogant judgment that “he missed out on many things.”

Add that to the fact that the child will be exposed to disordered sex daily if this couple is indeed a happy couple & you are opening up a can of worms. They will, of course, see one “daddy” kissing another, sitting on the other man’s lap.

That’s a huge assumption. It’s a little weird that children should be exposed to any sex at all, or to see anyone (unless they’re drunk) sitting on anyone else’s lap, etc. That’s bizarre behavior for a child to see, period.

This situation “produces diverse trauma and behavioral disorders that can even lead to suicidal tendencies or attempts.”

To the contrary – it’s attitudes like yours that lead young gay and lesbian people to feel ostracized and hated by society, and to jump off bridges.

 

[StAnastasia]

Then outlaw divorce and fornication. These are MUCH GREATER producers of parent-less children.

Divorce and fornication are also threats to marriage. Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh and other darlings of the conservatives should know that.

 

[estesbob]

Divorce and fornication are also threats to marriage. Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh and other darlings of the conservatives should know that.

Proof positive that this thread has jumped the shark. He

 

[Ridgerunner]

My grandfather died when my father was four years old. Are you suggesting my father turned out defective because he lacked his own father?

With all due respect, I don’t know that this tells us anything. My father’s father died when my father was 10. I have a sister who is a certified counselor, and she said an interesting thing. Evidently, when a parent dies when a child is young, the child carries a sort of idealized picture of the deceased parent in his/her head, and usually emulates the good qualities of the parent, even if the child only learns about some or all of those qualities second hand. It’s kind of a dynamic all its own.

 

[StAnastasia]

Evidently, when a parent dies when a child is young, the child carries a sort of idealized picture of the deceased parent in his/her head, and usually emulates the good qualities of the parent, even if the child only learns about some or all of those qualities second hand. It’s kind of a dynamic all its own.

Quite possibly.