Catholics. Is Salvation Easy Or Complicated?

[Timothy_Piper]

Merry Christmas to All and may Christ be your focus this Christmas. I have been told to sit on the bench a while; so i am going to take that advice and sit things out a while.

God bless!

 

[guanophore]

What is so difficult about Acts 2:38, that you need the catholic clergy to tell you what it says???

Can you read what I had typed here or do you need someone from your clergy to tell you what I tell you?

There’s nothing in Acts 2:38 that says…AND…you must…AND…+++.

Its short and sharp and to the point. - Repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus and you will receive the Holy Spirit.

Note it says YOU. It didn’t say your religious institution.

Mo, the Body is not decaptitated from the Head, as you seem to believe. When we are in Christ, we are members of His One Body, the Church.

The Apostles committed the Gospel to the church. We don’t define doctrine by taking one verse, and separating it from the rest of the message. Of course Acts 2:38 is short and to the point. so are a great many of the verses in Scripture. We don’t understand this separated from the rest of scripture.

Let’s just remember the curse in the book of Revelation that says that those who ADD to the holy scripture (bible) shall be accursed.

Yes, let’s remember it. Let’s remember that the NT did not exist when that was written. Let’s remember that the verse applies to the book in which it appears. Let’s remember that the book of Rev had a really hard time getting into the NT, and it was the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church that made sure it got in! Let us remember that the Catholic Church “added” all 27 books of the NT.

 

[guanophore]

I suppose you would not be. Do you even know the gospel of grace?

Beloved brother in Christ…

The Gospel of Grace was committed to the Church by Catholics. The Catholic Church is how the gospel of grace was preserved and promulgated, so that it could come to your ears.

 

[guanophore]

Acts 2:38 is not a clear as first appears in the context you and others read it, otherwise you have contradictions from John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, Paul and others.

You make a good point here, Tim. The contradictions are a result of the reader’s perceptions, not the doctrine that is reflected there.

Here are 2 examples, which you must see in relation to Acts 2:38, then I will put Acts 2:38 in the proper grammatical context as it should be according to the Greek. Why it is written so poorly in Scripture in English I cannot say, except that God is in control and seems to make this a stumbling block to many. Does it make a difference to Salvation; I believe it does, but I am not dogmatic about it yet, but it does indicate, to believe that Water Baptism is necessary to save may indeed be a work that makes God’s grace and Christs atonement insufficient.

Baptism is not a “work” of man, a work of the flesh, but an opportunity to receive the free gift of grace from God.

This is not the ONLY method by which we can access saving grace, but it is the dependable and God-ordained one.

**The two example are from the results of Peter preaching the Gospel and you must notice the point which they believe, the receive the Holy Spirit, then are water Baptized.**

This is the Teaching of the Church with relation to adults.

 **Then Peter answered**, "**Can anyone forbid water**, that **these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?**" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

The Apostles never separated the HS from the water.

 B]What is not required as part of salvation in Acts 11 yet all are saved?  Water

What was Peter referring to when he said?** I remembered the word of the Lord**, how He used to say, `John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

If it was not necessary, why did Peter order it? Peter obviously thought it was…

Therefore the true saving baptism is the immersion into Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Indeed. The Apostles taught that the normative means by which this occurs is during water baptism, where we are united to Him in His death.

"Repent for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit; then each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."

Do you not see that the water is not separated?

 

[guanophore]

What did Paul mean by “work out your own salvation”?

Salvation is gifted to us in baptism, when we are transferred from the Kingdom of Darkness into the kingdom of light. We are sealed by the promised HS, who is the guarantee of our inheritance, until we acquire posession of it. The Apostolic teaching appeals to us not to receive this grace in vain:

2Co 6:1 Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

What “counts” is faith, working through love. by this faith we fulfill the works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. We participate in His work in us, so that His Body is built up in love:

Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

By receiving His grace, and walking in it, we do what is pleasing in His sight:
Heb 13:21 …equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

We are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, so that it is no longer we who live, but Christ, who lives in us.

 

[Mosacked]

The remainder of your post suggests you believe differently - i.e. that salvation occurs at that moment in time, while one is still living.

I did not do that. You were the one who relied upon Acts 2:38 for the proposition that salvation was assured, when the language nowhere stated such. My point was that there’s a clear distinction between baptismal regeneration and an assurance of one’s final salvation. Baptism reestablishes a relationship with Christ which must be nurtured, as must any relationship.

You didn’t answer me. What happens if the person dies right after? Are you telling us that Acts 2:38 becomes insufficient? Obviously, the verse does not provide any accomodation for catholicism.

The Church, the sacraments, the Pope, and Mary all play a part in nurturing and guiding our faith along the path that Christ has set for us… the path that leads through Calvary to the Resurrection.

That’s what you’re proposing. But that’s not whats required in Acts 2:38.

I made no such “admission.” If you read that into my response then I apologize for any misunderstanding that my writing may have caused you. I was trying to develop the point that salvation is determined at the end of life, and that it is not assured merely because one has been brought into the church by baptism. Rather, baptism is the beginning of one’s life lived in faith, and that the living of that life is assisted by the graces bestowed under the sacraments administered by the Church.

And how can that happen unless you EXTEND the persons life after he has already repented & is baptised and receives the Holy Spirit? And even then…your additional requirements are certainly not defined there.

Quite the contrary neighbor. I intended to convey the fact that once one is baptized the sacraments of the Church are there to support a faith life. They are analogously necessary to one’s faith life just as food and water are needed for physical life.

And we’re not talking about whether these ‘additional supports’ are even required in Acts 2:38.

I really don’t see how you can support your position from Acts 2:38 apart from the rest of the scriptures. Rather, it seems to me that Acts 2:38 is part (but not the entirety) of what is taught about baptism and the Holy Spirit.

So you’re accusing Peter of not completing his sentences? Cos, to me, its very clear what he said.

REPENT, BE BAPTISED, RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT…and what’s next?..WAIT FOR REDEMPTION.

Certainly NOT…go find the pope, pray through Mary, use a rosary, sign up and join the sacraments.
.

 

[guanophore]

Is this the Catholic version of “Easy Believism”? ** Jesus never said to listen to a church**; I beg you to make up a passage or two in context to show this.

Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses** to listen even to the church**, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Tim it seems that you are so bent on denying the authority that Jesus gave to the Church that you are willing to deny the Scriptures themselves.

Jesus gave authority to His Apostles. They passed this on to their successors. His Word lives in the Church, and is infallibly preserved there by Him. We can be saved by listening to the Church because the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth - She upholds all that Jesus taught. Jesus is the only way to heaven. There is no other name under which we may be saved.

the unsearchable riches of Christ,
Eph 3:9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,
Eph 3:10** so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known** to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
Eph 3:11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,

God purposed from eternity that His manifold wisdom would be made known through the Church.

 

[Mosacked]

Mo, the Body is not decaptitated from the Head, as you seem to believe. When we are in Christ, we are members of His One Body, the Church.

And…where’s the church? Everyone says THEIRS is the one. I’m not here to argue with you which is.

The Apostles committed the Gospel to the church. We don’t define doctrine by taking one verse, and separating it from the rest of the message. Of course Acts 2:38 is short and to the point. so are a great many of the verses in Scripture. We don’t understand this separated from the rest of scripture.

AND?..who decides what is to be ADDED? YOU? As a follower of Scripture and not a CHALLENGER of its truth, I choose to FOLLOW what it teaches and not decide for it what else should be added to it. Doing so would immediately qualify me for evil-dom.

Yes, let’s remember it. Let’s remember that the NT did not exist when that was written. Let’s remember that the verse applies to the book in which it appears. Let’s remember that the book of Rev had a really hard time getting into the NT, and it was the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church that made sure it got in! Let us remember that the Catholic Church “added” all 27 books of the NT.

Let’s also remember that without God’s mercies, you wouldn’t even be using the computer.:tsktsk:

 

[guanophore]

I am merely asking him/her if the person dies right after (repentance + baptism in the name of christ & receiving the Holy Ghost) but without engaging in any catholic sacraments, no knowledge of the pope nor the vatican would the person therefore end up in HELL?

No, in fact, the Apostles taught the opposite. There is no cleaner state for a soul then immediately following baptism, when one is cleansed of all sins, original and personal. this is why, in the post Apostolic age, many would delay baptism to the moment of death. A dangerous and ill conceived practice, but reflective of the understanding of the purity of the immediately baptized soul.

From the verse in Acts, it seems very definite that the man will be SAVED…WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE CLERGY, POPE, VATICAN ETC ETC.

This is quite possible.

What does that tell us? Salvation is SIMPLE. And there is no room space for any of these ‘other’ things. Even the lack of these seem natural.

I agree that salvation is simple. Jesus said, though that the road is narrow and difficult, and few will find it.

It would be erroneous to think that the simplicity of the free gift of salvation “leaves no room or space” for any spiritual development.

Act 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

If one lives after baptism (is not on a deathbed), then the appropriate next step is to cleave to the Sacred Traditions of the Apostles preserved in the Church.

 

[guanophore]

Like I already pointed out, Salvation occurs only AFTER the person dies.

Well, yes and no. It occurs fully and completly at the moment of baptism, though that fullness is not realized until after we depart this life. There are some aspects of salvation that we are working out now, and there are some that are yet to come.

And your entire post is based on the premise that the person lives on OR has access to these óther' things.  And then you extrapolated Acts 2:38 to accomodate whatever you wanted there.

Indeed, Christ intended that the newborn in His Kingdom have access to all that is needed to mature in their faith.

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
Eph 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

You admit clearly too that in that verse the person’s salvation is secured. And well, that implies that the person has no need for the knowledge for any other thing that’s even vaguely catholic.

On the contrary, Mo, the reason that the salvation is secured is through the Catholic faith. Baptism comes from the Church, and is completely Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

What happens if the person dies right after?  Are you telling us that Acts 2:38 becomes insufficient?  Obviously, the verse does not provide any accomodation for catholicism.

On the contrary, Mo! the verses you cite are Catholic verses, written by , for , and about Catholics. The Truths represented in them are Catholic Truths. There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic.

And how can that happen unless you EXTEND the persons life after he has already repented & is baptised and receives the Holy Spirit?  And even then..your additional requirements are certainly not defined there.

One of the main reasons we do not exptrapolate doctrine from single verses of scripture…

And we're not talking about whether these 'additional supports' are even required in Acts 2:38.

Right. Persons who don’t live past baptism don’t need them.

REPENT, BE BAPTISED, RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT...and what's next?....WAIT FOR REDEMPTION.

That is not all that Peter said, though, is it?

2Pe 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
2Pe 1:4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.
2Pe 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,
2Pe 1:7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
2Pe 1:8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 Certainly NOT...go find the pope, pray through Mary, use a rosary, sign up and join the sacraments.

.

A person who has been baptized has already been brought into these gifts. If you choose not to take advantage of them, it is your loss. God has given many gifts to His Church to bring us to maturity. You seem very hostile toward the Catholic faith. I wonder why that is?

 

[guanophore]

And…where’s the church?

It is where the successors of the Apostles are found.

Everyone says THEIRS is the one.

Actually, they don’t. Every single Protestant avoids that claim.

I’m not here to argue with you which is.

Really? For a person who is not, you sure do work hard to “prove” that the Catholic Church is not it. Why are you here?

AND?..who decides what is to be ADDED? YOU?

Here is your misunderstanding, Mo. You see, these things were not “added” as you mistakenly believe. these things were committed to the Church by the Apostles. During the Reformation, men separated themselves from the Sacred Tradition, depending upon Sola Scriptura to guide them in the faith. They lost all their connection to the Sacred Tradition, and now, the offspring of the separated do not even realize that these Teachings existed. People like you come along, part of a tradition of men that have been separated from the Apoistolic teaching for 500 years, and think we “added stuff”.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Reading the above, one understands clearly that sins are forgiven and the gift of the Holy Ghost given upon Repentance + Baptism in the name of Jesus.

Meaning, ANYONE (eg. living alone, in desert, in mountain tops, jungles etc) ONLY needs to Repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus, and he/she will be saved upon receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Period.

Question: So, Where and how does the church, pope, mary etc etc come into the picture???\

**The same place the Bible does. It’s not mentioned by St. Peter, either. Therefore, according to your own logic, it’s unimportant.

There’s a difference between “simple” and “simplistic.” You’re going for the latter.**

 

[Mosacked]

It is where the successors of the Apostles are found.

Actually, they don’t. Every single Protestant avoids that claim.

Really? For a person who is not, you sure do work hard to “prove” that the Catholic Church is not it. Why are you here?

Here is your misunderstanding, Mo. You see, these things were not “added” as you mistakenly believe. these things were committed to the Church by the Apostles. During the Reformation, men separated themselves from the Sacred Tradition, depending upon Sola Scriptura to guide them in the faith. They lost all their connection to the Sacred Tradition, and now, the offspring of the separated do not even realize that these Teachings existed. People like you come along, part of a tradition of men that have been separated from the Apoistolic teaching for 500 years, and think we “added stuff”.

Guanophore, next time try writing your answers together, its difficult to read with so many of them. After spending some 10 minutes of my time trying very hard to understand what you’re typing, I still don’t see you putting up valid arguments for any of these cases. You merely dumped your opinions/views all over the place and onto the posts and expect readers to embrace your beliefs.

You seem to be regurgitating what some people might have drilled into you cos you typed and typed and typed without explaining why these stances/views of yours are valid.

I have this for you. Go read the bible. Pray for the Holy Ghost and ask Him to guide you. Cos you can be sure that if there’s anybody out there who can save you, its got to be Jesus. Yes, NOT your clergymen and NOT your bishops etc.

“I AM THE TRUTH, THE WAY AND THE LIFE. NO MAN GOES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME” - JESUS.

 

[rovimax]

The Apostles were like all Christians, called by God for the purpose of salvation. They were chosen vessels prepared before the foundation of the world. They all chose to accept that purpose and all fulfilled according to the power Of God working in and through them, just like He does with all His children.

Matt. 18:17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. 18 Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. – Jesus is preaching to a crowd here; see the parallel in the sermon on the mount. This is for all Christians because the saving power is in the message, not the messenger. In the seed, not the sower.

Do you want to be sanctified by God? Here is the only prescription given from John 17:
"Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, **so that the world may believe that You sent Me. **

You said it Jesus is talking to Christians, meaning he is talking to His church. Christians is Christ’s body the church, wether you are an apostle, a healer. a preacher, a prophet you are part of Christ’s body the Church. Luke 10:16

 

[Robert_in_SD]

You didn’t answer me.

I’m sorry. I thought I had when I agreed with you that if a person died just after being baptized (and before they committed a sin sufficient to separate themselves from God’s grace) they would be going to Heaven. But how often is that the case. Isn’t it much, much, much more common that a person receives baptism and then continues to live their life? In such a case can one fall out of that right relationship with Christ? I think the scriptures are clear in showing that one can fall away, and that one must perservere to the end to be saved. (E.g. Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:26-27)

Mosacked:

Are you telling us that Acts 2:38 becomes insufficient?

Insuficient for what? For instruction? For reproof? No. I was not saying the verse was insufficient. I was saying that your argument is insufficiently supported by Acts 2:38. Are you creating some sort of straw man here?

Mosacked:

Obviously, the verse does not provide any accomodation for catholicism.

Hyperbolic conclusions like this are not helpful to any dialogue. I suggest you drop them from your presentation to be more effective.

Mosacked:

That’s what you’re proposing. But that’s not whats required in Acts 2:38.

Again, I never said that’s what Acts proposes. It is you who are proposing that Acts 2:38 is the entire Gospel in one verse. You are considering what it says apart from the rest of the bible and apart from the Tradition of Christianity that stretches back to the beginning.

Mosacked:

And how can that happen unless you EXTEND the persons life after he has already repented & is baptised and receives the Holy Spirit? And even then…your additional requirements are certainly not defined there.

Once again, I’m not the one relying on Acts 2:38 to prove my position. You are. And again, I will concede, generally speaking, that persons baptized who then die without committing sins serious enough to separate themselves from God will go to heaven. My point was that generally that does not happen, and one is required to live out their time here on Earth after baptism. To live a life that is close to Christ, the Church and her sacraments are essential. Acts 2:38 is silent as to the living of one’s life after baptism because that was not what the writer intended to address. He was discussing the act of baptism and its efficacy.

Mosacked:

And we’re not talking about whether these ‘additional supports’ are even required in Acts 2:38.

LOL! That was your initial premise, that Acts 2:38 shows the entirety of what is required for salvation… repentence and baptism. My response is that your reliance on Acts 2:38 alone is insufficient. It does not establish the negative that you are trying in vain to support.

Mosacked:

So you’re accusing Peter of not completing his sentences? Cos, to me, its very clear what he said.

I’m not accusing Peter of anything. I’m suggesting to you that Peter may not have been implying the ultimate conclusion that you are inferring here.

Mosacked:

REPENT, BE BAPTISED, RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT…and what’s next?..WAIT FOR REDEMPTION.

Baptism is the sacrament that applies Christ’s redemptive work to us individually, to restore that right relationship with God. I’ve never suggested anything less. My point to you was that the passage was never intended to address what you are asserting… i.e. what comes after baptism. It is the living of one’s life in Christ. It is the working out of that salvation in fear and trembling as Paul instructs. It is a life of faith, working in love. And it is doing what Christ tells us. These requirements are not negated simply because of Acts 2:38. Such a conclusion would only be possible by grossly distorting other parts of the New Testament.

Mosacked:

Certainly NOT…go find the pope, pray through Mary, use a rosary, sign up and join the sacraments…

First, sarcasm like this is not constructive at all. Second, I did not know the Pope was lost. Third, asking Mary to intercede with us through her prayer to her Son is not a bad thing, but it’s also not necessary. The Rosary is a powerful prayer, but it too is not necessary. I’m not sure what you meant by “sign up and join the sacraments.” But it is clear that the other sacraments, like baptism and marriage are signs of God’s love that also convey grace for living our lives in Christ. They are food for the journey.

Peace,
Robert

 

[PJM]

Repentance + Baptism in the name of Jesus.

Meaning, ANYONE (eg. living alone, in desert, in mountain tops, jungles etc) ONLY needs to Repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus, and he/she will be saved upon receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Period.

Question: So, Where and how does the church, pope, mary etc etc come into the picture???

PS. By following Acts 2:38, it seems I don’t even need to know where is the Vatican. Or does someone/some people out there want to tell us that Peter did not complete his sentence or perhaps had said the wrong thing?

***Your understanding of the Bible verse quoted in very much incomplete, to the point of being in serious error.

"Litteraly; “the Key’s Key’s to the Kingdom of God”* are given to Peter and Christ Catholic Church, as evidenced in Mt. 16:19 and Mt. 18:18.

Further evidence particular to sin and the forgiveness of sin can be found in:

1 Jn. 1: 8-10 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us"

**1 Jn. 5: 16-17:"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

By “Mortal Sin” John is saying that one can sin so greviously that left “unconfessed” and unrepented and forgiven, it WILL condem one to Hell for Eterinity. “Mortal” = unto death!

Then we find that Christ out of love provides the POSSIBILITY for remittence even of 'Mortal sin."

** John 20:19- 23:** "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, **Jesus came **and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”[NOTICE Jesus is Speaking to His Apostles] **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you [SINGULAR: Apostles and furture bishops and Catholic Priest] forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” [NOTICE futher that this verse is retained even in the K J Bible!] This is abundently clear and concisely specific.

Indeed, Baptism does effect not only the complete forgiveness of SINS that are PRESENT at the time of Baptism, and even the latent to be “repaid” results fro all sins PRESENT at the time one receives this Sacrament; it is ESSENTIAL to know that this Sacrament applies ONLY to sins present at the time the Sacrament is received, and has ZERO effect on ones furture sins!

Thus the need for Confession and repentance, which can ONLY be found in the Catholic Church.

**Indeed God ALONE can and does forgive sins. The Priest uses the words “I ABSOLVE YOU FROM YOUR SINS” not “I forgive you!” Yet Christ specifically, precisely and clearly grants the authority to “bind or loose,” permit forgiveness or not to permit forgivness, based on ones sincere repentence and willingness to to sincerely alter ones life style.

And God has agreed to always and everytime, honor the decision of His Catholic Priest.**

So friend, now you know where and how the Vatican and the Catholic Church play an absolutely essential role in the forgiveness of sins. Unless of course you don’t accept God’s own words, MANDATE and teaching

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[fhansen]

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Reading the above, one understands clearly that sins are forgiven and the gift of the Holy Ghost given upon** Repentance + Baptism in the name of Jesus.**

Meaning, ANYONE (eg. living alone, in desert, in mountain tops, jungles etc) ONLY needs to Repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus, and he/she will be saved upon receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Period.

Question: So, Where and how does the church, pope, mary etc etc come into the picture???

PS. By following Acts 2:38, it seems I don’t even need to know where is the Vatican. Or does someone/some people out there want to tell us that Peter did not complete his sentence or perhaps had said the wrong thing?

.

The truth is that the gospel’s quite simple. God saves us by molding us into beings who first believe in, and then love Him with our whole heart soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. By His grace we’re made worthy of salvation. Or put another way: through His love we’re made lovers, too-i.e. we’re made like Him. But this is not done without our cooperation.-what kind of love is forced?

For those who’ve heard and understood the gospel, love compels them to do God’s will. Jesus said, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” So we’re baptized as He told us we must be. He also told us to be perfect as the Father is perfect and holy because He is holy and so we strive to be, by the Spirit, since this is our salvation which we must persevere in working out. The Church, certain in her teachings, is important in preserving and proclaiming the faith so we can confidently know Gods plan and not be swept away by various winds of doctrine. And she helps us do our part in becoming perfected, i.e. growing in love for God-the sacraments are one example. We must fulfill the commandments-otherwise there’d be no reason for the Apostle to have written in Romans 13 that **“love is the fulfillment of the law”. ** It’s all about Love-what else is worth living eternally for?

This is why St Augustine could say:
**Love, and do what you like. **

Or St Teresa of Avila could say:
**It is love alone that gives worth to all things. **

Or St John of the Cross:
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.

 

[Mosacked]

I’m sorry. I thought I had when I agreed with you that if a person died just after being baptized (and before they committed a sin sufficient to separate themselves from God’s grace) they would be going to Heaven. But how often is that the case. Isn’t it much, much, much more common that a person receives baptism and then continues to live their life? In such a case can one fall out of that right relationship with Christ? I think the scriptures are clear in showing that one can fall away, and that one must perservere to the end to be saved. (E.g. Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:26-27)
Insuficient for what? For instruction? For reproof? No. I was not saying the verse was insufficient. I was saying that your argument is insufficiently supported by Acts 2:38. Are you creating some sort of straw man here?
Hyperbolic conclusions like this are not helpful to any dialogue. I suggest you drop them from your presentation to be more effective.
Again, I never said that’s what Acts proposes. It is you who are proposing that Acts 2:38 is the entire Gospel in one verse. You are considering what it says apart from the rest of the bible and apart from the Tradition of Christianity that stretches back to the beginning.
Once again, I’m not the one relying on Acts 2:38 to prove my position. You are. And again, I will concede, generally speaking, that persons baptized who then die without committing sins serious enough to separate themselves from God will go to heaven. My point was that generally that does not happen, and one is required to live out their time here on Earth after baptism. To live a life that is close to Christ, the Church and her sacraments are essential. Acts 2:38 is silent as to the living of one’s life after baptism because that was not what the writer intended to address. He was discussing the act of baptism and its efficacy.

LOL! That was your initial premise, that Acts 2:38 shows the entirety of what is required for salvation… repentence and baptism. My response is that your reliance on Acts 2:38 alone is insufficient. It does not establish the negative that you are trying in vain to support.

I’m not accusing Peter of anything. I’m suggesting to you that Peter may not have been implying the ultimate conclusion that you are inferring here.

Baptism is the sacrament that applies Christ’s redemptive work to us individually, to restore that right relationship with God. I’ve never suggested anything less. My point to you was that the passage was never intended to address what you are asserting… i.e. what comes after baptism. It is the living of one’s life in Christ. It is the working out of that salvation in fear and trembling as Paul instructs. It is a life of faith, working in love. And it is doing what Christ tells us. These requirements are not negated simply because of Acts 2:38. Such a conclusion would only be possible by grossly distorting other parts of the New Testament.

First, sarcasm like this is not constructive at all. Second, I did not know the Pope was lost. Third, asking Mary to intercede with us through her prayer to her Son is not a bad thing, but it’s also not necessary. The Rosary is a powerful prayer, but it too is not necessary. I’m not sure what you meant by “sign up and join the sacraments.” But it is clear that the other sacraments, like baptism and marriage are signs of God’s love that also convey grace for living our lives in Christ. They are food for the journey.

Peace,
Robert

Robert, u spoke so much to deny ur stand of its insuffiency only to show otherwise. if its not already clear, ur act of applying that verse only on exception cases reflects ur take of its insufficiency. That needs no excuses. And that qualifies u for heresy. Secondly, if receiving the Holy spirit is not an assurance of salvation then u must be holding a book thats not written by God. Cos God Himself claims in the bible that the spirit calls out Abba Father! And u are denying these people of their sonship! Are you then not the devil?

 

[PJM]

=Mosacked;6089515]Robert, u spoke so much to deny ur stand of its insuffiency only to show otherwise. if its not already clear, ur act of applying that verse only on exception cases reflects ur take of its insufficiency. That needs no excuses. And that qualifies u for heresy. Secondly, if receiving the Holy spirit is not an assurance of salvation then u must be holding a book thats not written by God. Cos God Himself claims in the bible that the spirit calls out Abba Father! And u are denying these people of their sonship! Are you then not the devil?

Friend,

Your position lacks logic, understanding and most clearly;TRUTH.

Several of us have tried to share what is meant by the verse you asked about, but you in your eagerness to be correct without being right, seem not to wish to know the [SINGULAR] truth.

Your attempt to put “words into the mouth of God” falls far short of what Christ Himself taught.

God bless you,

The Bible is and remains a Catholic Book. YOU trying to understand what Christ is saying outside of what the CC Teaches INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, is no different than you trying to read and under the Vulgate in Latin, and then guessing at what you just read. Same results will be had.

***John 14: 16 And I[Jesus] will pray the Father, and he will give ***you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, [the CC] and will be in you.

Mt. 16:19 I [Jesus] will give you [My Catholic Church] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth [Teach on matters of Faith and or Morals] shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 20: 19-23 "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

As has been said before. Baptism indeed does remove all PRESENT and PAST sins, BUT NOT furture sins. [Obstinence is too a sin freind]. Thus Christ Instituted the Sacrament of "Known Forgiveness… Reconcillation… available ONLY through the CC.

1 John 1: v. 8-10 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

Feel free to look these up in the shortened and altered KJ Bible, they are still there.

There is not one thing unclear or ambigious in these verses. Heven and HELL are real, and we, NOT God decide which we choose for ourselves.

Friend, either you believe in the Bible as the Words of God, or you’re doomed! [2 Tim. 3:16].

Love and prayers,

Pat