Catholics, is this a self-fulfilling prophecy?

[GKC]

What’s your note? It is late and I am not seeing much.

But still. Knowing the amount of countries in the word takes a simple google… And when your board/whatever have something different, I would hope it doesn’t differ by 50. Anyway,

Regards

The UN total for countries, and the additional number of dependencies (not UN sovereign nations) are somewhere around 230+. And consider, however the folks who issue those studies are defining things, it’s their idiosyncratic definitions. I can’t imagine anyone else counting denominations once, for every country that it appears in. But these folks do.Who knows how they define countries. But however they do, they list them in their publications.

No one is recommending these figures as definitive. Merely identifying the most common source for folks who post 33,000 numbers on boards like this.

 

[MichaelP3]

The UN total for countries, and the additional number of dependencies (not UN sovereign nations) are somewhere around 230+. And consider, however the folks who issue those studies are defining things, it’s their idiosyncratic definitions. I can’t imagine anyone else counting denominations once, for every country that it appears in. But these folks do.Who knows how they define countries. But however they do, they list them in their publications.

No one is recommending these figures as definitive. Merely identifying the most common source for folks who post 33,000 numbers on boards like this.

So we are counting every single Island the UK has? Okay. Still doesn’t get to that amount. It Is very superficial. Honestly I would love a list?

But that distracts us from this thread. where I still expect answers from our brothers with regards to my questions. And actually many of them!

Regards

 

[GKC]

So we are counting every single Island the UK has? Okay. Still doesn’t get to that amount. It Is very superficial. Honestly I would love a list?

But that distracts us from this thread. where I still expect answers from our brothers with regards to my questions. And actually many of them!

Regards

I nave no idea what their list might be. Here’s one idea, though:

worldometers.info/geography/countries-of-the-world/#example

Remember that these folks define denomination in a way that no one would, intuitively. They may do the same for country. One of their aims, AFAIK, is to track the geographical distribution, by denomination, across the world, and changes to that. They are certainly free to do so.

I have no interest in their accuracy. I had an interest, years ago, in finding the origin of the figures so often presented as representing the number of protestant denominations. These folks seem to be the origin.

Yes, indeed, let them recede into the background.

Until the next time.

 

[Peter_J]

How would a protestant know what a good Catholic should say, anyway?

I could ask them. Though I think I would be more likely to get answers if I put the question in a “nicer” way.

I’m not sure if you have ever read any of my posts but I mentioned many times I have studied the Catechism. I got a copy from my local parish (Thought it would be unethical to print it out at work) and I truly have studied it in various ways. It would embarrass any of my University textbooks with the amount of notes in there. On the Catechism (A wonderful document where I found a lot more good then bad) well… I’ve been there, done that and got the stretchmarks.On the hope of getting me to convert, well I’m not sure how that corresponds with the rules on here but I’ll let it slide.

But yea, back to the question, A Protestant can know what a good Catholic should say. It is clearly in there.

Regards

Well as I said, it depends a lot on what the Protestant is responding to. If he or she is just reminding everyone that the Catechism tells what Catholics believe, that’s no problem.

But suppose I say “Protestants are led by the devil” and you say “Well that’s what you as a Catholic should say …” (Granted that’s kind of a reductio ad absurdum, but hopefully it drives the point home.)

 

[rcwitness]

… But yea, back to the question, A Protestant can know what a good Catholic should say. It is clearly in there.

I agree! Especially since Protestants and Catholics have so much in common.

It’s really not rocket science, though it takes the Holy Spirit to give understanding. On the other hand, many Protestant have twisted views on what they think we should be believing.

 

[rcwitness]

But suppose I say “Protestants are led by the devil” and you say “Well that’s what you as a Catholic should say …” (Granted that’s kind of a reductio ad absurdum, but hopefully it drives the point home.)

It is absurd! But I like your point.

 

[MichaelP3]

Well as I said, it depends a lot on what the Protestant is responding to. If he or she is just reminding everyone that the Catechism tells what Catholics believe, that’s no problem.

But suppose I say “Protestants are led by the devil” and you say “Well that’s what you as a Catholic should say …” (Granted that’s kind of a reductio ad absurdum, but hopefully it drives the point home.)

Well I can even go one further and say what a good Catholic should say and then cite the Catechism. (Seeing as I am somewhat ignored considering my very clear and extesnive questions I will respond to your post, I guess some will always try to get a jab in but when it gets “interesting” they are gone or dust their feet and … Ignore)

On your last paragraph, well it has many times been stated here on CAF that “anyone who is not Catholic” are certainly not led by the Holy Spirit. Implicitly I am actually getting to an understanding as you put it. But then there are numerous further discussions where it is rather stated that “they are imperfectly still in union with … the Catholic Church”. See I know my Catechism. Or as another explicitly put it “Jesus is somehow involved”. That was a bit mean. Sometimes the arrogance on here knows no bounds.

But anyway, I see your point.

Regards

 

[rcwitness]

On your last paragraph, well it has many times been stated here on CAF that “anyone who is not Catholic” are certainly not led by the Holy Spirit. Implicitly I am actually getting to an understanding as you put it. But then there are numerous further discussions where it is rather stated that “they are imperfectly still in union with … the Catholic Church”. See I know my Catechism. Or as another explicitly put it “Jesus is somehow involved”. That was a bit mean. Sometimes the arrogance on here knows no bounds.

To say “anyone who is not Catholic, is not led by the Holy Spirit” is wrong in many ways. It may be true that (according to Catholic faith) the Holy Spirit leads all to one faith, but when many matters within the Catholic faith are considered, some matters are accepted while others are denied. So “non-Catholic” Christians still are led to accept much of the Catholic faith, while not accepting all. The blameworthiness, or culpability for rejecting some matters in the Catholic faith depends on knowledge.

I think we could all agree that Christians don’t just all follow the Holy Spirit in all things.

 

[MichaelP3]

To say “anyone who is not Catholic, is not led by the Holy Spirit” is wrong in many ways. It may be true that (according to Catholic faith) the Holy Spirit leads all to one faith, but when many matters within the Catholic faith are considered, some matters are accepted while others are denied. So “non-Catholic” Christians still are led to accept much of the Catholic faith, while not accepting all. The blameworthiness, or culpability for rejecting some matters in the Catholic faith depends on knowledge.

I think we could all agree that Christians don’t just all follow the Holy Spirit in all things.

Understood and agree! Thank you

Regards

 

[Peter_J]

On your last paragraph, well it has many times been stated here on CAF that “anyone who is not Catholic” are certainly not led by the Holy Spirit.

Hi again. I’ve been neglecting to participate, not just on this thread but on CAF, in recent days; but that’s an good example to use.

I don’t think anyone would come right out and say “If something is claimed on CAF, then it’s true”, but many people seem to think that in practice. As for example, I seriously doubt that anyone has ever produced anything like a reference from the CCC, documents of Vatican II, etc indicating that anyone who is not Catholic is not led by the Holy Spirit, and yet the mere fact of that being posted on CAF could, for some, prove that it’s the “Catholic position”.

 

[MichaelP3]

Hi again. I’ve been neglecting to participate, not just on this thread but on CAF, in recent days; but that’s an good example to use.

I don’t think anyone would come right out and say “If something is claimed on CAF, then it’s true”, but many people seem to think that in practice. As for example, I seriously doubt that anyone has ever produced anything like a reference from the CCC, documents of Vatican II, etc indicating that anyone who is not Catholic is not led by the Holy Spirit, and yet the mere fact of that being posted on CAF could, for some, prove that it’s the “Catholic position”.

Hi Peter J. I hope we have conversed enough for you to know I don’t fall into the category you explain Luckily I know enough Catholics IRL to make a good assumption. Especially my very Polish Catholic Father in Law. He also has a Masters in Philosophy so you can imagine we have some interesting discussions. And he actually listens to me without telling me I’m wrong all the time.

But the statement anyone who is not Catholic is not led by the Holy Spirit was actually echoed again yesterday on non-Catholic Forum. Not exactly in that way but it is pretty much what the person means. Let’s just say it is not helping any dialogue and I find it interesting that no Catholic even tries to correct this?

Regards

 

[rcwitness]

But the statement anyone who is not Catholic is not led by the Holy Spirit was actually echoed again yesterday on non-Catholic Forum. Not exactly in that way but it is pretty much what the person means. Let’s just say it is not helping any dialogue and I find it interesting that no Catholic even tries to correct this?

Yes, it is an ignorant statement. There are Catholics (myself included) who are not led by the Holy Spirit in all things.

I think the statement would have to be specified to mean, it is not the Holy Spirit which leads us to be outside of Communion with His one Eucharist.

 

[adf417]

But the statement anyone who is not Catholic is not led by the Holy Spirit was actually echoed again yesterday on non-Catholic Forum. Not exactly in that way but it is pretty much what the person means. Let’s just say it is not helping any dialogue and I find it interesting that no Catholic even tries to correct this?

Regards

What i find interesting is the fact that the CC has its teachings in place that anyone can, whether the are Catolic or not, use to correct a person speaking this nonsense but yet there is no mechanism in place one can use to correct a non-Catholic about things except to argue their point verbally resulting in no authoritative position established.

Peace!!!

 

[MichaelP3]

It almost certainly includes all the unaffiliated, single congregation groups, as well as the malcontents who can’t find something they like in any established denomination and just form a meeting in their home for three or four friends.

But, this doesn’t refute my point. It demonstrates it. It demonstrates the nature of Protestantism. In Protestantism, simple disagreements about doctrine or practice are reason enough to abandon a church and find a new one, especially since there is no authority or hierarchy. If the Bible is your only authority, one teacher is as good as another. Better even, if this teacher is saying what I want to hear. This elevation of personal understanding and preference is what has led to the plethora of denominations and unaffiliated congregations. If you can’t find a pastor or teacher who is preaching what you like or understand, you can just stay home and read the Bible for yourself.

If the only reason I had to go to church was to listen to someone’s opinion and half-formed exegesis, I’d probably stay home, too. When I was protestant, I did. The homily is nice, but I don’t go to Mass for the Homily. The hymns are nice, but I don’t go to Mass for the hymns. I go to Mass to partake of the Lord’s true presence in the Eucharist. For that, I need a validly ordained priest. I CAN’T leave the Catholic Church. I could no more do without the Eucharist than I could do without air.

Actually you just ignored me all the way!!! :shrug:e some serious questions your way considering you posted things concerning that. (As asked)

But a question that seems to be creeping up considering that . "Can a person understand Catholicism and not be Catholic? A very important question according to few?

 

[MichaelP3]

What i find interesting is the fact that the CC has its teachings in place that anyone can, whether the are Catolic or not, use to correct a person speaking this nonsense but yet there is no mechanism in place one can use to correct a non-Catholic about things except to argue their point verbally resulting in no authoritative position established.

Peace!!!

I appreciate your post!

Something I have wondered for a while. Yes, there is no mechanism to authorotatively correct a non-Catholic, but I also wonder, what is even remotely authoritatively declared in any Protestant group? What would be considered a “dogma” to use Catholic language? I can think of a few, but they would be a Catholic dogma as well.

Regards

 

[adf417]

I appreciate your post!

Something I have wondered for a while. Yes, there is no mechanism to authorotatively correct a non-Catholic, but I also wonder, what is even remotely authoritatively declared in any Protestant group? What would be considered a “dogma” to use Catholic language? I can think of a few, but they would be a Catholic dogma as well.

Regards

Greetings MichaelP3
That may be the question of the day or better yet “Could there possibily be an authoritatively declared “dogma” in any Protestant group”? If yes please explane. If not, then does our actions become the teaching.

Example: at the local university there are more non-catholic groups than Catholic. Some of the bigger popular congrigations, but not all, believe Catholics to be non Christian. When confronting the non-Catholic sympathizers on how we as a community can change this the answer is always - or “we need to look past their misunderstandings”.

While i agree we should look past these misunderstandings the “teaching” continues and more importantly, these groups are and will always be considered as part of the Christian community by the community - solidifying that their “beliefs” must be Christian beliefs. And there is no group outside the Catholic church outwardly trying to correct these misunderstandings, ultimately resulting in confusion and non-unity to all those outside of Christianity.

Peace!!!

 

[Padres1969]

I appreciate your post!

Something I have wondered for a while. Yes, there is no mechanism to authorotatively correct a non-Catholic, but I also wonder, what is even remotely authoritatively declared in any Protestant group? What would be considered a “dogma” to use Catholic language? I can think of a few, but they would be a Catholic dogma as well.

Regards

Depends on the denomination. Some do not have anything that would be considered close to Catholic Dogma.

 

[adf417]

Depends on the denomination. Some do not have anything that would be considered close to Catholic Dogma.

They may not use the term “dogma” but i dont think there is a denomination in existance without the use of a dogmatic belief systemn to some degree.

Peace!!!

 

[Padres1969]

They may not use the term “dogma” but i dont think there is a denomination in existance without the use of a dogmatic belief systemn to some degree.

Peace!!!

I mean if you consider short statements of faith to equal dogma then yes. But again, not sure I’d consider a few bullet points to equal anything close to a dogmatic belief system.

 

[adf417]

I mean if you consider short statements of faith to equal dogma then yes. But again, not sure I’d consider a few bullet points to equal anything close to a dogmatic belief system.

Greetings Padres,
I would, and if one really wants to defend a belief that is eternal then he will find himself expanding those bullet points without end to clarify his position.

Peace!!!