Catholics... Just As Bad As Protestants?

[Singinbeauty]

I did not mean to mock you, but the logical conclusion you are making is that you are infallible on doctrine, since all you have to do is ask the holy spirit and you get the answer. Sorry, but that just doesn’t compute.

Permit me to point to a couple of verses in scripture…

Mark 12:36
For David himself, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said, `The LORD said to my Lord, Sit in honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.’
Mark 12:35-37 (in Context) Mark 12 (Whole Chapter)

Mark 13:11
But when you are arrested and stand trial, don’t worry about what to say in your defense. Just say what God tells you to. Then it is not you who will be speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
Mark 13:10-12 (in Context) Mark 13 (Whole Chapter)

The Holy Spirit in both instances spoke to the individual and they were encouraged to listen. It didn’t say that the Holy Spirit will speak to the church and the church will tell you what to do…

Luke 12:12
for the Holy Spirit will teach you what needs to be said even as you are standing there."

 

[Eden]

Do you believe that Christ established authority in His Church?

 

[Eden]

III. Jesus Wants Us to Obey Apostolic Authority

Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles’ special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves.

Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

Rom. 15:16 – Paul says he is a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of the ordained which is distinguishable from the universal priesthood of the laity. Notice the Gentiles are the “sacrifice” and Paul does the “offering.”

1 Cor. 5:3-5; 16:22; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 – these verses show the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize (“deliver to satan”).

2 Cor. 2:17 - Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God’s word. They are actually commissioned by God. It is not self-appointed authority.

2 Cor. 3:6 – Paul says that certain men have been qualified by God to be ministers of a New Covenant. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of Christ handed down the ages through sacramental ordination.

2 Cor. 5:20 - Paul says we are “ambassadors” for Christ. This means that the apostles and their successors share an actual participation in Christ’s mission, which includes healing, forgiving sins, and confecting the sacraments.

2 Cor. 10:6 – in reference to the ordained, Paul says that they are ready to punish every disobedience. The Church has the authority excommunicate those who disobey her.

2 Cor. 10:8 - Paul acknowledges his authority over God’s people which the Lord gave to build up the Church.

1 Thess. 5:12-13 - Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them.

2 Thess. 3:14 - Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him.

1 Tim. 5:17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders (“priests”) of the Church.

Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands.

Heb. 12:9 – in the context of spiritual discipline, the author says we have had earthly fathers (referring to the ordained leaders) to discipline us and we respected them.

Heb. 13:7,17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to remember and obey their leaders who have authority over their souls.

1 Peter 2:18 - Peter charges the servants to be submissive to their masters whether kind and gentle or overbearing.

1 Peter 5:5; Jude 8 - Peter and Jude charge the members of the Church to be subject to their elders.

2 Peter 2:10 - Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ.

3 John 9 - John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John’s apostolic authority and declares that this is evil.

Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die.

Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a “protestant” rebellion against God’s chosen Moses in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood, and Korah and his followers perished. (This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents today.) Sirach 7:29-30 - with all your soul fear the Lord and honor His priests, love your Maker and do not forsake His ministers. God is not threatened by the authority He gives His children! God, as our Loving Father, invites us to participate in His plan of salvation with His Son Jesus. Without authority in the Church, there is error, chaos and confusion.

Source: scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

 

[dhgray]

EVERYONE BACK OFF

Singinbeauty came here to talk to her Catholic brotheren and to understand the Catholic Faith better. Instead of a welcome and loving envrionment, we end up attacking her…I’m guilty too.

Singinbeauty, please forgive me, please forgive us. To a point you are right:

So, I am concluding that catholics are just as bad as protestants and that is not a good witness on either side.

I look forward to posting with you.

 

[scylla]

Me too, Welcome and if you would like a discussion feel free to start a thread on one subject to make it easier on you.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Singinbeauty]

dhgray:

Singinbeauty came here to talk to her Catholic brotheren and to understand the Catholic Faith better. Instead of a welcome and loving envrionment, we end up attacking her…I’m guilty too.

Singinbeauty, please forgive me, please forgive us. To a point you are right:

I look forward to posting with you.

Ahhhh… So far no harm… I believe different. shrug Some may feel the need to convert my evil soul but remember everyone… Just as much as you believe that you have found the right path and how strong you feel about that path… So do I about mine… I like being asked about what I believe because it helps me to define and solidify my belief and path. So thank you all… You are setting in stone what I already believed so far!

 

[Ignatius]

Singinbeauty:

It seems to me that this is a purpose that the RCC is striving for. To be separate from the rest of the Christian faith. Correct me if I am wrong in this observation.

You are wrong on this. The Catholic Church which was founded by Jesus Christ almost 2000 years ago, contains the fullness of the Truth and the Deposit of Faith which has been handed down from that time from generation to generation to the present day. It is easy enough to verify, just trace the beginning of the different denominations.

Do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:
If you are a member of the Jewish faith, your religion was founded by about 4,000 years ago.
If you are of the Catholic faith, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.
If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.
If you are Anabaptist, your religion was founded by Nicholas Storch and Thomas Munzer in Germany in 1521.
If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.
If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.
If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the United States in 1901.
If your organization is “evangelical nondenominational christian” your group started in the 1960s

This is also interesting:
Discerning the Church which Christ founded.

There are a few things we know about this true church:

1. It was built by Jesus Christ himself (Matt 16:18) which means that the “true church” must be about 2000 years old.
2. Jesus only built ONE church (Matt 16:18).
3. This church is the God -ordained upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15).
4. This church is the fullness of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) which means that it is also the fullness of truth (John 14:6).
5. The unity of this church will be proof to the world that Jesus was sent by God (John 17:21,23). In order for this unity to be seen by the world this church must be a visible church.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Ignatius:

You are wrong on this. The Catholic Church which was founded by Jesus Christ almost 2000 years ago, contains the fullness of the Truth and the Deposit of Faith which has been handed down from that time from generation to generation to the present day. It is easy enough to verify, just trace the beginning of the different denominations.

Discerning the Church which Christ founded.

There are a few things we know about this true church:

1. It was built by Jesus Christ himself (Matt 16:18) which means that the “true church” must be about 2000 years old.
2. Jesus only built ONE church (Matt 16:18).
3. This church is the God -ordained upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15).
4. This church is the fullness of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) which means that it is also the fullness of truth (John 14:6).

God Bless
5) The unity of this church will be proof to the world that Jesus was sent by God (John 17:21,23). In order for this unity to be seen by the world this church must be a visible church.

All this makes sense if you are catholic but to me the church that Jesus set forth is the Christian faith. We all belong to this church whether you like it or not. It doesn’t matter what denomination you come from. As long as you believe that the way to God is through Jesus Christ His son.

All the rest of what you quoted is interesting but does not apply to me. Those are denominations under the Christian faith. I do not hold to a denomination because most if not all are corrupt in some way or another.

 

[djrakowski]

dumspirospero:

And I have read what they “believe”
I don’t have enough time to dissect all the heresies in it…but it wasn’t all that impressive…I was raised in that type of protestant Church and I always found it lacking and deficient…that is why I had to make the switch.

I’m in an exchange with a fellow from these forums, and have raised a few issues with him regarding my struggle with determining whether the claims of the Catholic Church are correct. I commented that, if it weren’t for the lack of charity expressed by a number of folks on these forums, that I would probably have become a Catholic a long time ago. And the attitude expressed in this post - insisting on pointing out all the errors of our ‘heretical’ ‘churches’, rather than arguing for the truths of Catholicism - is really off-putting. In other words, instead of saying things like “I always found it lacking and deficient,” “I have read what they ‘believe’,” “don’t have time to dissect all the heresies in it,” why don’t you choose to prove how Catholicism is “complete and sufficient.”

In the middle of this struggle, sometimes I’m ready to throw in the towel and stay around sincere, charitable folks in something less than the “one, true Church” than be around people ready to attack and take offense at every opportunity.

Dan

 

[Ignatius]

Singinbeauty:

All this makes sense if you are catholic but to me the church that Jesus set forth is the Christian faith. We all belong to this church whether you like it or not. It doesn’t matter what denomination you come from. As long as you believe that the way to God is through Jesus Christ His son.

I understand what you are saying, but you are assuming I was always Catholic; which is incorrect. In my search of His Truth, I examined about all of Christianity. I also did a lot of praying for guidance. I asked the Holy Spirit to show me the way and guide me to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Jesus Christ only started one Church.
Ephesians 4:4-6 **
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all.**

Check when the denominations started and what they taught and where their teachings come from. Even chech where we got the Bible (really check, do some research on the Canon of the New Testament) If you do a little checking, I think you will find that things are not the way that you now suppose them to be.

May God gratiously bless you.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[dumspirospero]

As a non-Denom…can you, in reality, say you believe in anything…except for the bare minimums it takes to even be considered a Christian?..I promise I am not trying to be rude or inflammatory…it is just I used to be a non-Denom and well…to be honest, it is lacking and deficient…it really isn’t a religion at all…it is all about you and thats it.

Singinbeauty:

Ahhhh… So far no harm… I believe different. shrug Some may feel the need to convert my evil soul but remember everyone… Just as much as you believe that you have found the right path and how strong you feel about that path… So do I about mine… I like being asked about what I believe because it helps me to define and solidify my belief and path. So thank you all… You are setting in stone what I already believed so far!

 

[Eden]

Singinbeauty:

All this makes sense if you are catholic but to me the church that Jesus set forth is the Christian faith. We all belong to this church whether you like it or not. It doesn’t matter what denomination you come from. As long as you believe that the way to God is through Jesus Christ His son.

All the rest of what you quoted is interesting but does not apply to me. Those are denominations under the Christian faith. I do not hold to a denomination because most if not all are corrupt in some way or another.

The only Christian Church in the West for 1500 years was the Catholic Church - before the first Protestant churches broke away. Doesn’t it matter to you that the Catholic Church is the ancestor to your church? Doesn’t the thought that the Catholic Church has existed for 2,000 years - since the time of Christ -intrigue you? There is a rich history here going back to the time of Christ.

 

[Philthy]

Singinbeauty:

I have to say that I do not believe that the catholic church is the one and only church started and established by Jesus himself. And I haven’t found anything close that leads me to that conclusion as of yet.If it was He would have told us to follow catholic traditions and each of those traditions that make you catholic and separate you from other denoms would be spelled out in scripture just as the jewish traditions are in the OT. Some of the traditions and followings I don’t fully understand but I will check out that link. Thank you!

Hi Singinbeauty! :yup:

I extend a belated welcome to the forums.
It is not uncommon to experience relatively low levels of hostility in this particular forum. People on both sides of the discussion carry baggage which fuels the emotions - don’t take it personally. In addition, written communication frequently fails to convey the full intention of the writer, and often distorts the “mood” of the writer as well. Reconsider if you feel someone has been unkind to you - it may not be intentional.
You make a number of observations and conclusions above. I would like to comment on them:

Singinbeauty:

I have to say that I do not believe that the catholic church is the one and only church started and established by Jesus himself.

Actually the Catholic church is that BY DEFINITION. The Catholic Church is DEFINED AS the one and only church founded by the Christ. You know, from the Apostles Creed? Everyone in Heaven and everyone on earth who is “in Christ” is a member of the Catholic Church, which is the mystical body of Christ. You may not like that name, but it has been around for 2000 years and is unlikely to change. Catholic means universal…thats where it comes from - the universal church.

Singinbeauty:

If it was He would have told us to follow catholic traditions and each of those traditions that make you catholic and separate you from other denoms would be spelled out in scripture just as the jewish traditions are in the OT.

This seems very logical, but also a religion of “man” as you said in your first post. The problem is that implicit in your statement is that “Scripture tells us everything regarding faith and morals”. Well the reality is that Christ never said there would be ANY New Testament at all. Not even a hint of it. The old testament is extensively written by prophets and the prophets ended with John the Baptist - how could you possibly expect more Scripture? It is only by virtue of the Church the Christ established that we have confidence in the New Testament to be what the Church claims it to be: “God-breathed”. Christ left us a Church, not a book. He instructed his apostles to “Baptize and Teach” to make disciples, he did not say to write a book and let them figure it out.
Please don’t confuse what I have said to mean that I believe Scripture isn’t to be revered as the very word of God. Its my own interpretation of what Scripture says that is to treated with suspicion. And your opinion is no better.
You seem to be seeking the church of apostalic times. That is worthy though there is no indication that the organization of the church is to be fixded for all time (except that Christ is the head) - why don’t you search through some reliable sources and read what the early church fathers(ECF’s) did and taught? They were around during the apostolic and immediate post apostolic era. It will shock you to see how Catholic they were.

Again, welcome -

Phil

 

[Singinbeauty]

Ephesians 4:4-6
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all.

As I have stated before this does not prove that the catholic church is the one that Jesus started… He started the CHRISTIAN faith. Christian = Christ. Christianity’s basis is set on Christ himself hence CHRISTianity. We are not called catholics we are called to be christians even in the bible. The divisions of the church (or denominations) were brought on by MAN. Even catholocism…

 

[dumspirospero]

What truth do you want me to prove about the Catholic Church…if you want to know something, just ask or read it yourself. Secondly, I was not being rude, however even if I were…you shouldn’t let one uncharitable person or many for that fact on the world wide web keep you away from Catholicism…that is asinine. That is like saying you need to go to the hospital to have a crucial surgery that will save your life, but you aren’t going because the lady at the front desk rubbed you the wrong way. What is stopping you!!! I you not converting as the result of one or two things: Either you don’t handle important matters like your faith maturely and you let the lack of charity on behalf of a few keep you away from what you believe is the one, true, Church…in other words, you use that as an excuse or a crutch…or, You dont’ have any desire to be Catholic and never have, and you use someones lack of charity as an opportunity to attack The Church and Catholics.

djrakowski:

I’m in an exchange with a fellow from these forums, and have raised a few issues with him regarding my struggle with determining whether the claims of the Catholic Church are correct. I commented that, if it weren’t for the lack of charity expressed by a number of folks on these forums, that I would probably have become a Catholic a long time ago. And the attitude expressed in this post - insisting on pointing out all the errors of our ‘heretical’ ‘churches’, rather than arguing for the truths of Catholicism - is really off-putting. In other words, instead of saying things like “I always found it lacking and deficient,” “I have read what they ‘believe’,” “don’t have time to dissect all the heresies in it,” why don’t you choose to prove how Catholicism is “complete and sufficient.”

In the middle of this struggle, sometimes I’m ready to throw in the towel and stay around sincere, charitable folks in something less than the “one, true Church” than be around people ready to attack and take offense at every opportunity.

Dan

 

[Eden]

Singinbeauty:

As I have stated before this does not prove that the catholic church is the one that Jesus started… He started the CHRISTIAN faith. Christian = Christ. Christianity’s basis is set on Christ himself hence CHRISTianity. We are not called catholics we are called to be christians even in the bible. The divisions of the church (or denominations) were brought on by MAN. Even catholocism…

Catholic means universal. All Christians were “Catholic” in the early Church because they were Christians in the Catholic (meaning universal) Church (Greek “katholikos”=universal).

“Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” - St. Ignatius of Antioch circa 107 A.D.

Just in case there is any confusion, St. Ignatius was the Bishop of Antioch AND Antioch is where the term “Christian” was first used. He’s talking about the same thing - Christians/Catholic Church were one entity.

 

[scylla]

One last post, I have got to get to work.

I will contest that the Catholic Church is the Church set up by Jesus Christ. Feel free to look to history and trace the Church back.

Jesus Christ founded a Church we see that from the Gospel.

His Church was called the Catholic Church by Ignatius of Antioch in about 107AD

Feel free to look up Ignatius of Antioch and read his writings. I don’t think this here is a link to Calvin College
ccel.org/l/lake/fathers/toc.htm

The Church was united at this time and had a structure setup by the apostles. It is always useful to go back and read the writings of people in that day.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[dumspirospero]

The following is a quote which emphasizes the necessity of Authority in the Church, i.e. Magisterium…it also warns against the evils of protestantism.

“And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ; Untile we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of fulness of Christ; *That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. *But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ.”–Eph. iv. 11-15

 

[Singinbeauty]

Yes, catholic means universal and to that I agree. But I don’t agree that the catholic church we have today is the catholic that they were talking about way back when. The RCC has many adopted practices that, as of yet, I have not found ANY biblical evidence of. Practices that Paul and Peter never heard of.

 

[Philthy]

Singinbeauty:

… I go to a non-denom church and the pastor there does his sermon then I go home and study over what he talked about and come to a conclusion of whether or not I agree. He will not tell me what to believe, just present his ‘case’, and luckily I have agree’d with him thus far.

Interesting. Why would you consider that lucky? Do you have a motive for wanting to agree with him? I don’t understand why, in the absense of a bias, you would want to agree with him. It seems like you are saying that “no man tells me what to believe” but at the same time you want to believe whatever it is he tells you. Im probably just confused - care to explain?

Phil