Catholics need to stop using the "33,000 denominations" apologetic device

[punisherthunder]

This isn’t a hard concept to grasp.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that there are people I work with who tell me the names/denominations of their churches that would make your collective heads explode.

Tabernacle of Faith, Venue Church, God Freedom Church, His Word Church, and one named Happy Church. The Happy Church meets in a movie theatre on early Sunday mornings. When asked why, they said that people can’t dare set foot in a church because of fear, so meeting in a common place like a movie theatre relaxes them more. Then again the whole time they play movie clips and have some Pentecostal hollering. I did ask the lady what type of church it fell under and she said," the Christan Bible".

Don’t tell me that 33,000 variations of this don’t exist.

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes. And in the end, we should not tout a specific number (especially such a High number) unless maybe some day the Church actually teaches some sort of figure.

And I didn’t, which I plainly said. That number of 33000 is not from Catholic source. If you ask me, I do not know how many, frankly.

Looking at the discussion here, I think it is not the number which is the contention, but rather churches split because of different interpretation of the Bible. At one time there was only one Catholic Church (not counting EO & OO of course) but look at it now, there are so many different churches.

As far as I am concerned I would be happy to accept Protestants explanation of their churches, what they believe and so forth, because I take a position that they are different in some ways from the Catholic Church.

I am still trying to figure out what’s the big deal about the number. If it is not 33,000 then it is not. Would it change the status quo? If it is the small number that our friends in Protestantism want, so be it. What has it got to do with the teaching of Catholic Church? As far as I can tell, there is no teaching on the number of Christian denominations in the world today. And goodness, do we really need a teaching on that?

Seriously, I am trying to find out what is the fault of Catholic posters here that receive all the objection. How should they post or say to make their posts acceptable?

 

[rcwitness]

And I didn’t, which I plainly said. That number of 33000 is not from Catholic source. If you ask me, I do not know how many, frankly.

Yes. I dint mean you did.

Looking at the discussion here, I think it is not the number which is the contention, but rather churches split because of different interpretation of the Bible. At one time there was only one Catholic Church (not counting EO & OO of course) but look at it now, there are so many different churches.

As far as I am concerned I would be happy to accept Protestants explanation of their churches, what they believe and so forth, because I take a position that they are different in some ways from the Catholic Church.

I am still trying to figure out what’s the big deal about the number. If it is not 33,000 then it is not. Would it change the status quo? If it is the small number that our friends in Protestantism want, so be it. What has it got to do with the teaching of Catholic Church? As far as I can tell, there is no teaching on the number of Christian denominations in the world today. And goodness, do we really need a teaching on that?

Seriously, I am trying to find out what is the fault of Catholic posters here that receive all the objection. How should they post or say to make their posts acceptable?

 

[Reuben_J]

ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations
ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations

Excerpt from the blog:

Many Catholics like to cite the 33,000 figure because the number is so outrageously large they assume it is a particular embarrassment to Protestants.

I think this is an exaggeration. Who are the ‘many Catholics’?

More likely a figment of his imagination. What is the point of trying to embarrass Protestants with the number (33000)? You don’t want to embarrass anybody in an interfaith dialogue.

Even if the number 33000 is cited, it is more to emphasize that churches have been split into so many different churches, not that the exact figure is accurate. If someone said 33000, well, that is quoting someone else’ number to make a point – that there are so many churches out there. Point demonstrated, not the number verified.

Look at all this division in your ranks! But the result has been that Protestants consult the source, take note of the problems with it, claim a few thousand denominations at most, and scoff at the wild exaggeration. Catholics look foolish for insisting on a ridiculously high and easily-refuted number, and Protestants imagine they can sleep the sleep of the just because the real number is nowhere close. See! they say. No denomination problem here! Thus the real issue gets lost.

Catholics need to stop citing this number, not only because it is outlandishly false but because it is not the point how many Protestant denominations there are. The point is the scandal of division and the love of private judgment that has caused so much of it. The scandal would be no less if there were two denominations, and no greater if there were two million. Any division in the body of Christ is a scandal. To argue over how many is a red herring. It is an argument about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

The real point is St. Paul’s words in Ephesians 4:4–6:
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

By “one body,” St. Paul means “one Church,” as is evident when you compare Ephesians 1:22-23 and Colossians 1:18, 24. Protestants don’t need to answer to an Encyclopedia; they need to answer to St. Paul. That is the only discussion worth having. We make a mistake in allowing them to avoid the discussion by fixating upon the dubious number 33,000.

This is more of an internal affair for Catholics rather than debating it on a non-Catholic religions forum. And which I agree whole-heartedly. But isn’t this what we were saying all along?

edit: This is said by the same guy who say we do not know Protestantism and Protestants do not want to be known as Protestants and yet he blatantly mentioned Protestants.

 

[Padres1969]

The RC Nicene Creed says, “I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” TEC Nicene Creed says, “I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.”

True, but Catholics until a few years ago also prayed that they “Acknowledged one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”

The RCC changed it when they re-released the English translation.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Most Reformed people do get banned from CAF, or leave in disgust. .

As do 99% of Catholics on CARM and various other protestant websites.

CAF is actually very fair, imo.

 

[rcwitness]

As do 99% of Catholics on CARM and various other protestant websites.

CAF is actually very fair, imo.

I’ve seen many Catholics banned here. I don’t see partiality here.

 

[jmcrae]

Bottom line, using that number or any specific number is just going to sidetrack your argument -it’s best to say something like “a great many” or (more effectively) “more than two.” Christ established One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church on Peter; Peter’s successor lives in Rome; hence “Roman Catholic” and it’s the same Church that Christ inaugurated at the Last Supper, and infused with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

There are a large number of knock-offs and variants, but only one original.

 

[Padres1969]

Bottom line, using that number or any specific number is just going to sidetrack your argument -it’s best to say something like “a great many” or (more effectively) “more than two.” Christ established One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church on Peter; Peter’s successor lives in Rome; hence “Roman Catholic” and it’s the same Church that Christ inaugurated at the Last Supper, and infused with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

There are a large number of knock-offs and variants, but only one original.

Of course the Orthodox would refute that since they too claim to be the one and only original…

But you’re right that it’s better for Catholics to focus on the base argument then to focus on a number that’s specious at best by most Catholics’ own admission since they reject the same source’s computation of the number of Catholic denominations.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

True, but Catholics until a few years ago also prayed that they “Acknowledged one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”

The RCC changed it when they re-released the English translation.

I knew that there were some changes, but didn’t know that was one. Thanks.

 

[Tomyris]

I’ve seen many Catholics banned here. I don’t see partiality here.

I am not saying that there is partiality and I have seen many Catholics banned here - sometimes long after I thought they deserved it. If anything, the mods are very patient.

Rather, if I have become good at hopping, it is because I go about with my foot in my mouth. It is VERY easy to say something that I think is not offensive but is extremely so to Catholics. The converse is also true, and sometimes I get furious at something I read because only a - well, only a me - could have written that, if I were Catholic.

So I want to keep my keyboard from getting ahead of me, but the darn thing is always in front, you know?

We can really communicate when we know what offends the other and what the other means by the words they choose.

 

[pianistclare]

Funny, but until seeing this thread…I’ve never ever heard anyone advance that there are 33,000 denominations. Neither priest nor layperson.

 

[JustaServant]

I am not saying that there is partiality and I have seen many Catholics banned here - sometimes long after I thought they deserved it. If anything, the mods are very patient.

Rather, if I have become good at hopping, it is because I go about with my foot in my mouth. It is VERY easy to say something that I think is not offensive but is extremely so to Catholics. The converse is also true, and sometimes I get furious at something I read because only a - well, only a me - could have written that, if I were Catholic.

So I want to keep my keyboard from getting ahead of me, but the darn thing is always in front, you know?

We can really communicate when we know what offends the other and what the other means by the words they choose.

I think the statement originated when you said most Reformed people get banned here. I don’t think that is the case. In fact, Reformed Christians tend to more disciplined and intelligent in their responses, as opposed to fundamentalists, JWs, and SDAs.
Maybe what you meant to say was there has been 33,000 posters banned since CAF started in 2004.

 

[JustaServant]

Funny, but until seeing this thread…I’ve never ever heard anyone advance that there are 33,000 denominations. Neither priest nor layperson.

Do a simple search on CAF.
Unless you mean in real life. I would agree there.
Except…a few weeks ago we heard our priest make this claim during a homily.

 

[pianistclare]

Do a simple search on CAF.
Unless you mean in real life. I would agree there.
Except…a few weeks ago we heard our priest make to claim during a homily.

I meant in real life.
There is not much on CAF that resembles REAL LIFE,

 

[Tomyris]

Prophecy!

If so the gift has faded…

I don’t understand. Why do denominations help worship together? Don’t they do the opposite? Aren’t they in separate denominations because they do not profess the same doctrine?

Theology on this varies. Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, for example, won’t participate with anyone who disagrees with them, not in a public prayer, nothing.

I recognize other Christians as Christian and am willing to worship with them. We have open Communion - any other Christian is welcome to the table at our Church, provided he comes with a clean conscience. I would expect to be able to walk into any other Protestant church and take communion there, because we are Christians, even if the theology of Communion is something I disagree with. So we express unity in the Body of Christ and regard closed Communion as divisive and controlling. Whether I am in a Baptist or Pentecostal or Presbyterian church, I am among Christians, brothers and sisters, and I will eat at their table. I will respect the closed communion at some churches and not take there.

There are doctrines Catholics disagree on yet profess unity (Jon brought up whether Mary died and went to heaven, or didn’t die and went to heaven as one, I think) and I am not willing to say someone is not a Christian because he or she disagrees with me.

That is bounded by several things. One is that if my church (denominational level) has declared something heretical, and so separated fellowship, I will honor that. Mormons and JWs are in that category. There are also denominations that we recognize as Christian but we cannot, sorrowfully, walk on the same road with them because of direction (PCUSA). Yet they are Christians and welcome at our services and we are welcome at theirs.

The denomination controls doctrine, at least in the EPC. There is a local presbytery, which is composed of all the pastors and elders (pastors are a special kind of elder, teaching elders, as opposed to ruling elders), which makes some decisions. There is a general assembly of all the presbyteries, and they do things throughout the denomination. There is a moderator who organizes meetings and is responsible for letting people know what was decided at general assembly, but has no authority per se to set doctrine.

We seek unity with all other Christians. It is good to have joint services, even pulpit exchanges, with churches in other denominations. Where we can, we build bridges and rebuild unity with other denominations. There have been splits but also mergers, perhaps more mergers than splits, at least from where I am at. We can agree to disagree and we are still Christians. We do joint projects and ministries. Protestants and Catholics do pro-life work together, and stuff is done across other denominational lines.

I hope this answers your question.

 

[Reuben_J]

I meant in real life.
There is not much on CAF that resembles REAL LIFE,

Honestly the first I heard the number 33000 is in CAF. And I thought really? Nah, couldn’t be.

Interestingly that’s all it is to me, never spoke a word about it with my Catholic friends.

Perhaps it is an online phenomenon, people like to share unusual information which they saw somewhere. It’s also happens in Whats App groups.

Obviously this is sensitive to Protestants and in being considerate to their feeling, perhaps the Mods should consider banning this figure from being said in CAF.

As being said, suffice it is to know that the Church that Jesus left behind has morphed into so many churches we don’t know the number because of the principle each one is a Magisterium to himself.

 

[pianistclare]

Honestly the first I heard the number 33000 is in CAF. And I thought really? Nah, couldn’t be.

Interestingly that’s all it is to me, never spoke a word about it with my Catholic friends.

Perhaps it is an online phenomenon, people like to share unusual information which they saw somewhere. It’s also happens in Whats App groups.

Obviously this is sensitive to Protestants and in being considerate to their feeling, perhaps the Mods should consider banning this figure from being said in CAF.

As being said, suffice it is to know that the Church that Jesus left behind has morphed into so many churches we don’t know the number because of the principle each one is a Magisterium to himself.

Really? How many times have you seen it on CAF?
I’ve never seen it.

 

[GKC]

Really? How many times have you seen it on CAF?
I’ve never seen it.

I’'ve seen it roughly 33,000 times on CAF. Or a number of times roughly equal to the preceding numbers the WCE folk have offered, over the years. Or a lot of times…

 

[Reuben_J]

Really? How many times have you seen it on CAF?
I’ve never seen it.

I think two threads on it are still active now. That’s all to it. I am like you, it is new to me. When I saw it being mentioned, I took it as a way of speaking, not that the exact figure is accurate but it draws quite an interest here seeing the many response to it, as if it is a common Catholic argument which of course, is far from the truth (yes) in real life.