Catholics need to stop using the "33,000 denominations" apologetic device

[Tomyris]

It is not accepted as gospel here. The majority does not support the research (and it’s definition) result as a legitimate apologetic resource. It is not constructive. .

I go by what I see in the threads. When Catholics use the 33,000 figure, sometimes 9 or more Catholic posters will follow their post on the thread, but none of them challenge the figure. It looks like assent by silence. MANY Catholics come on here and spout all sorts of things and claim it is what the Church is teaching. To people like me, each Catholic represents the Catholic church and the non-Cs assume they know what they are talking about. Often they don’t and that destroys the credibility of just about anyone else. There are a few people who will refute their fellow Catholics - Don Ruggero and Guanophore come to mind - but most people seem content to just let anything be said, as long as it is a slam against Protestants, that is fine, even better if it scores points against Martin Luther. It turns CAF into a sham. So I applaud this thread, and wish more informed Catholics would police the uninformed Catholics who say all sorts of things that are against the mind and heart of the Catholic Church. This thread is an exception to that observation, an encouraging exception.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

I go by what I see in the threads. When Catholics use the 33,000 figure, sometimes 9 or more Catholic posters will follow their post on the thread, but none of them challenge the figure. It looks like assent by silence. MANY Catholics come on here and spout all sorts of things and claim it is what the Church is teaching. To people like me, each Catholic represents the Catholic church and the non-Cs assume they know what they are talking about. Often they don’t and that destroys the credibility of just about anyone else. There are a few people who will refute their fellow Catholics - Don Ruggero and Guanophore come to mind - but most people seem content to just let anything be said, as long as it is a slam against Protestants, that is fine, even better if it scores points against Martin Luther. It turns CAF into a sham. So I applaud this thread, and wish more informed Catholics would police the uninformed Catholics who say all sorts of things that are against the mind and heart of the Catholic Church. This thread is an exception to that observation, an encouraging exception.

You are seriously saying that a small bunch of posters on an online forum represent the view of one Billion Catholics?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

You are seriously saying that a small bunch of posters on an online forum represent the view of one Billion Catholics?

Personally, I so appreciate what Catherine Grant, moderator now retired, put in the important notices in her sub-forum. I think it is so important
*Please remember that there are many people lurking who are judging your position and all those who are in your communion by your behavior alone. *
I think that is exactly on point.

I certainly remark that threads will have a small number of people posting but have been accessed by hundreds and even thousands of readers in a very short time.

For how many individuals reading, especially non-Catholics, is it actually clear that “a small bunch of posters on an online forum” do not, in fact, represent the view of one billion Catholics? How many of them appreciate that posts actually represent a very small segment of not only the Church’s membership (and that limited to that fraction who communicate in English) but also the minds of those who are in the Church?

I also wonder how many non-Catholic readers from around the world come fully expecting that, in the forum, they will find Catholics who knowledgeably and articulately reflect in their statements and postings the correctly articulated teaching of the Church. It is, after all, “The Catholic Answers Forum.”

The Church in the United States is abundantly represented…but the Church in Europe I personally find far less represented…to say nothing of the Church in Africa, Asia, Oceania or Latin America.

 

[Wannano]

You are seriously saying that a small bunch of posters on an online forum represent the view of one Billion Catholics?

It has been pointed out that the 33,000 denominations of Protestantism represent 33,000 different viewpoints and result in utter confusion and chaos. I read there is approx one billion Protestants in the world. If all Catholics do not have the same viewpoint since they are classed as a denomination totalling one there are possibilities for 33,000 differing viewpoints in one bilion people so the conclusion drawn is that we are equally confused!

 

[JustaServant]

It has been pointed out that the 33,000 denominations of Protestantism represent 33,000 different viewpoints and result in utter confusion and chaos. I read there is approx one billion Protestants in the world. If all Catholics do not have the same viewpoint since they are classed as a denomination totalling one there are possibilities for 33,000 differing viewpoints in one bilion people so the conclusion drawn is that we are equally confused!

 

[po18guy]

I remember posting my analysis in that original thread.

Basically speaking:

1. Each church that calls themselves by the following names is a separate denomination: congregational, Presbyterian, independent, baptist, “bible church” and any other church where the local pastor gets to set the doctrine (i.e. no higher authority can displace the pastor).

Using this standard I set, we have possibly hundreds of thousands, if not millions of denominations.

But wait, I’m getting started.

1. Every individual Christian who believes in “Jesus and me” or “Not religious, just relationship” becomes a denomination unto themselves. Regardless of the church they attend (if they even attend one), they are denominations unto themselves. These are the “Church of One” types.

As you can see, this could easily become hundreds of millions of denominations.

Now, how do I define protestant?

1. Not Catholic and
2. Not Eastern Orthodox and
3. Not Oriental Orthodox and
4. Protesting against the Catholic Church, or split from the Catholic Church (or one of the splits) in its history and
5. believes in Jesus Christ (I define this broadly, believes in Jesus and that he’s the Messiah)

So Lutheran counts. Anglican counts, since they split from us. And the various “bible churches” count since they split from the splits. I count JW and Mormons since they split from the splits and both declare those churches anathema!

So 33,000 is an understatement. We could easily have hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

The problem is not Protestantism, the problem is relativism which is endemic in the NCNO (non Catholic, non Orthodox) side of Christianity.

Hammer strikes nail squarely on the head. “Sola scriptura” means, as it always has, “ego sola meum.” Since the written word, yes even the scriptures, are easily twisted, sola scriptura is ideal for twisters. Proof of this outside of the Apostolic Churches abounds.

 

[JustaServant]

It has been pointed out that the 33,000 denominations of Protestantism represent 33,000 different viewpoints and result in utter confusion and chaos. I read there is approx one billion Protestants in the world. If all Catholics do not have the same viewpoint since they are classed as a denomination totalling one there are possibilities for 33,000 differing viewpoints in one bilion people so the conclusion drawn is that we are equally confused!

I’ve read, but rarely participate the endless Catholic-EO debates I see on the NCR forums here and EC.
I’ve asked my wife about the built-in anamosity that seems to exist as before she converted, she used to go to a Syrian Orthodox Church. I’ve asked her if they displayed any of the behaviors I have seen online.
Never, in her experience.
They went to Divine Liturgy and then got together for tabouli and kibbe with grape leaves. If you asked them about the filoque, they would probably have looked in the fridge to see if they had any left.
So, is this apparent animosity an online phenomenon? Because I myself have never seen this in the “outside world”.

 

[JustaServant]

Personally, I so appreciate what Catherine Grant, moderator now retired, put in the important notices in her sub-forum. I think it is so important
*Please remember that there are many people lurking who are judging your position and all those who are in your communion by your behavior alone. *
I think that is exactly on point.

I certainly remark that threads will have a small number of people posting but have been accessed by hundreds and even thousands of readers in a very short time.

For how many individuals reading, especially non-Catholics, is it actually clear that “a small bunch of posters on an online forum” do not, in fact, represent the view of one billion Catholics? How many of them appreciate that posts actually represent a very small segment of not only the Church’s membership (and that limited to that fraction who communicate in English) but also the minds of those who are in the Church?

I also wonder how many non-Catholic readers from around the world come fully expecting that, in the forum, they will find Catholics who knowledgeably and articulately reflect in their statements and postings the correctly articulated teaching of the Church. It is, after all, “The Catholic Answers Forum.”

The Church in the United States is abundantly represented…but the Church in Europe I personally find far less represented…to say nothing of the Church in Africa, Asia, Oceania or Latin America.

You do bring up an important point Father. The problem with armchair apologists, is they do not allow for the diversity of opinion within the church, and many times among clergy themselves. I have seem them weald a Catechism like a fundamentalist wealds a Bible.
So oftentimes the ‘answers’ in Catholic Answers are more complicated than a simple black and white answer.
Precisely why I compared the 33,000 device as not much different than the fundamentalist tactic of using the ‘trail of blood’.

 

[Wannano]

I’ve read, but rarely participate the endless Catholic-EO debates I see on the NCR forums here and EC.
I’ve asked my wife about the built-in anamosity that seems to exist as before she converted, she used to go to a Syrian Orthodox Church. I’ve asked her if they displayed any of the behaviors I have seen online.
Never, in her experience.
They went to Divine Liturgy and then got together for tabouli and kibbe with grape leaves. If you asked them about the filoque, they would probably have looked in the fridge to see if they had any left.
So, is this apparent animosity an online phenomenon? Because I myself have never seen this in the “outside world”.

I think anonymity creates a false sense of bravery in some of us.

 

[pianistclare]

They went to Divine Liturgy and then got together for tabouli and kibbe with grape leaves. If you asked them about the filoque, they would probably have looked in the fridge to see if they had any left.

That’s really funny.

 

[Reuben_J]

That’s really funny.

About to comment so myself. Second that.

 

[Reuben_J]

I go by what I see in the threads. When Catholics use the 33,000 figure, sometimes 9 or more Catholic posters will follow their post on the thread, but none of them challenge the figure. It looks like assent by silence.

I would be one of those silent on the figure. I just don’t know for sure.

However the principle behind it is the same, that’s the reason for the silence. Private interpretation of the Bible, can lead to different belief, which lead to different churches and thus denominations.

I asked for the definition of ‘denomination’ that Protestants are comfortable with. None coming forth but that maybe because I could of missing it, if there was. So the figure of 33,000 basically is not refuted. People like GKC, himself a non-Catholic, would say the figure was used by the pollster for their purpose.

A cradle Catholic would be quite amused as to why the agitation over the figure. After all it is a fact that there are many Christian denominations today. Each denomination is only accountable to itself, not to the rest.

Perhaps the indecision I think is about the non-denominational churches. Not sure though. Is each single church a denomination by itself?

If one uses the definition of authority that decides/governs the church, a structure more understood by Catholics, then each church would constitute a denomination.

But what does it matter? Is it not the reality? One hundred, one thousand, ten thousand denominations, … would the figure change anything that is being discussed here?

 

[Reuben_J]

MANY Catholics come on here and spout all sorts of things and claim it is what the Church is teaching. To people like me, each Catholic represents the Catholic church and the non-Cs assume they know what they are talking about. Often they don’t and that destroys the credibility of just about anyone else. There are a few people who will refute their fellow Catholics - Don Ruggero and Guanophore come to mind - but most people seem content to just let anything be said, as long as it is a slam against Protestants, that is fine, even better if it scores points against Martin Luther. It turns CAF into a sham. So I applaud this thread, and wish more informed Catholics would police the uninformed Catholics who say all sorts of things that are against the mind and heart of the Catholic Church. This thread is an exception to that observation, an encouraging exception.

Don Ruggerro, one of the posters here, by his own disclosure, is an academician, a Catholic priest. Probably he was once a parish priest.

I believe he is well endowed with Vatican and knowledgeable with its activities.

I have to warn you though when one speaks about the Vatican/Catholic Church’s documents. You may not be able to imagine it of you come from a small Protestant church, but in Catholicism, those documents are mind boggling. You can pick any Catholic as he/she comes out of the mass and ask him/her about the content of such documents, and most probably ninety five out of a hundred, you would draw blanks.

This is the kind of information Fr Ruggerro si reminding us with.

That does not mean they do not know the basic of their belief and they can very well dialogue with you on it.

As for the Vatican documents, they are not Catholic Church’s law until the local Bishop made it known to the parishioners and make it binding. I was just asking about a recent document, titled ‘Iuvenescit Ecclesia’ issued in May this year, perhaps a very important doctrinal document issued to the Bishops. And you are right, hardly anybody has heard of this bar a few.

The life of the parishioners is quite different than that of a diplomat in the Vatican which is doing their work in many ways – reaching out to other churches and religions besides praying and looking after the good of their own faithful.

But sometimes our priests, no disrespect, are far from living out the reality of their flock on the ground.

 

[GKC]

I would be one of those silent on the figure. I just don’t know for sure.

However the principle behind it is the same, that’s the reason for the silence. Private interpretation of the Bible, can lead to different belief, which lead to different churches and thus denominations.

I asked for the definition of ‘denomination’ that Protestants are comfortable with. None coming forth but that maybe because I could of missing it, if there was. So the figure of 33,000 basically is not refuted. People like GKC, himself a non-Catholic, would say the figure was used by the pollster for their purpose.

A cradle Catholic would be quite amused as to why the agitation over the figure. After all it is a fact that there are many Christian denominations today. Each denomination is only accountable to itself, not to the rest.

Perhaps the indecision I think is about the non-denominational churches. Not sure though. Is each single church a denomination by itself?

If one uses the definition of authority that decides/governs the church, a structure more understood by Catholics, then each church would constitute a denomination.

But what does it matter? Is it not the reality? One hundred, one thousand, ten thousand denominations, … would the figure change anything that is being discussed here?

GKC would expand on a point or two here. The question from the first, for me, was where did the figure(s) come from. And as long as I’ve watched the numbers appear, over the years, they have roughly paralleled those used by the folk who put out the World Christian Encyclopedia and related material. No other source has been reliably suggested, which would give that parallel, long term. And the WCE people, as noted, use an idiosyncratic definition for denomination, which is not considered when the numbers are given, whether the source is given or not. The answer to how many denominations is two-fold: “what are you counting, precisely defined?” and “Nobody knows”. The best answer I could give is “Whatever number you want, or some other number, higher or lower than that”. But the consistent parallel to the CWE figures keeps me posting on this deceased equine, even though I clench my teeth.

I’d not affirm a point or two further, in addition, but that’s personal. Your first and final paras are correct.

 

[Reuben_J]

GKC would expand on a point or two here. The question from the first, for me, was where did the figure(s) come from. And as long as I’ve watched the numbers appear, over the years, they have roughly paralleled those used by the folk who put out the World Christian Encyclopedia and related material. No other source has been reliably suggested, which would give that parallel, long term. And the WCE people, as noted, use an idiosyncratic definition for denomination, which is not considered when the numbers are given, whether the source is given or not. The answer to how many denominations is two-fold: “what are you counting, precisely defined?” and “Nobody knows”. The best answer I could give is “Whatever number you want, or some other number, higher or lower than that”. But the consistent parallel to the CWE figures keeps me posting on this deceased equine, even though I clench my teeth.

I’d not affirm a point or two further, in addition, but that’s personal. Your first and final paras are correct.

Thank you GKC, sir.

 

[GKC]

Thank you GKC, sir.

You are very welcome.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

After all, at Mass we recite the Nicene Creed which in its last section says.“I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” which many a non-Catholic cannot profess since that is not what was intended or professed at the time.

The RC Nicene Creed says, “I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.” TEC Nicene Creed says, “I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.”

 

[johnnyc176]

John Martignoni is my source for this number and he is a recognised Apologist, so I will stay with the 33,000

Yeah quite a few good apologist cite this number which is fine but really…3,000…33,000…does it really matter? I mean if some protestant says you are wrong it is only 29, 999 and uses that as a way to deny the Truth of the One True Church founded by Christ, the Catholic Church, well they are not really interested in the Truth.

Where I live in the south there are individual denominations, store front denominations, mainline denominations…the 33,000 number could very well be accurate. But what matters most for salvation is there is only One Church, the Catholic Church. There was one group that had t shirts saying ‘I love my church’. I tried to strike up a conversation with one and asked why it didn’t say ‘I love the Church or I love Jesus’ Church and was told Jesus didn’t find a church He founded Christianity and if I was Catholic I wasn;t a Christian lol. All you can do is pray for someone like that. Hand them over to the Blessed Mother.

 

[rcwitness]

I go by what I see in the threads. When Catholics use the 33,000 figure, sometimes 9 or more Catholic posters will follow their post on the thread, but none of them challenge the figure. It looks like assent by silence. MANY Catholics come on here and spout all sorts of things and claim it is what the Church is teaching. To people like me, each Catholic represents the Catholic church and the non-Cs assume they know what they are talking about. Often they don’t and that destroys the credibility of just about anyone else. There are a few people who will refute their fellow Catholics - Don Ruggero and Guanophore come to mind - but most people seem content to just let anything be said, as long as it is a slam against Protestants, that is fine, even better if it scores points against Martin Luther. It turns CAF into a sham. So I applaud this thread, and wish more informed Catholics would police the uninformed Catholics who say all sorts of things that are against the mind and heart of the Catholic Church. This thread is an exception to that observation, an encouraging exception.

That’s all you cared to reply to in my post?

I, personally, don’t think I’ve ever used the number 33k to apply to the denominations. I also have not felt compelled to refute the number with Catholic’s who post it because i never looked at that source. Its just an independent study. And it just shows that there are many denominations in the complex world of Christianity. I may say “hundreds” or “thousands”. You seem to believe that denominations are not a negative reality in Christianity, and perhaps even a good thing? I guess that would make sense if you practice inter-denominational Communion. We probably view Communion as an impediment to denominations.

I think anonymity creates a false sense of bravery in some of us.

For sure.

I would be one of those silent on the figure. I just don’t know for sure.

However the principle behind it is the same, that’s the reason for the silence. Private interpretation of the Bible, can lead to different belief, which lead to different churches and thus denominations.

I asked for the definition of ‘denomination’ that Protestants are comfortable with. None coming forth but that maybe because I could of missing it, if there was. So the figure of 33,000 basically is not refuted. People like GKC, himself a non-Catholic, would say the figure was used by the pollster for their purpose.

A cradle Catholic would be quite amused as to why the agitation over the figure. After all it is a fact that there are many Christian denominations today. Each denomination is only accountable to itself, not to the rest.

Perhaps the indecision I think is about the non-denominational churches. Not sure though. Is each single church a denomination by itself?

If one uses the definition of authority that decides/governs the church, a structure more understood by Catholics, then each church would constitute a denomination.

But what does it matter? Is it not the reality? One hundred, one thousand, ten thousand denominations, … would the figure change anything that is being discussed here?

Yes. And in the end, we should not tout a specific number (especially such a High number) unless maybe some day the Church actually teaches some sort of figure.

 

[Tomyris]

That’s all you cared to reply to in my post?

Please don’t take it that way. You raise good points which require long and careful answers. I wish I had the time, which is more compressed with the return of the work week than over a three day weekend. It is better to try to take the time to reply to one point well than to everything poorly, which might well leave you with the feeling that I am not really answering you. And I may find the time to answer you. It is easy to come up with something snarky, or something that is unintentionally snarky, than it is to try to express myself well. And I am always frustrated at the poor quality of what I post anyway.