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benidict
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2nd Adam;5861407:
he has trouble answering alot of questions. he totally ignores the question when it has him up against a wall. its called a bypass. i really do believe there is something more to this than hes letting on. either he just likes to start something he cant finish or he really is convinced by what hes learning here and hes just too afraid to admit it. so dont hold your breath my friend. hes not gonna answere
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Kalos
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Hi Canto: I’m not 2nd Adam, but I’d like to give you my answer in case he doesn’t get to it. My belief is a lot like his so he would probably approve. The scripture I go to first is 2 Pt.1:15-19. Here Peter recalls his experience of actually hearing the voice of God speaking on the holy mount (the transfiguration). This is his tradition. He says they were “eyewitnesses of His glory”. I don’t think anyone could claim a higher tradtion. But then he says in v.19 that “We have a more sure word of prophecy” That can only mean scripture. Scripture is God’s direct word because it does not come by experience as Peter’s tradition did. When we receive things through our senses, it is always subject to some error. Scripture is without error. It is reliable in every way. Not so for tradtion.
Next I go to Gal.1:8 Here, Paul is warning the Galations not to believe any other gospel than the original message Paul gave them at the first. Paul say that even if we ourselves come back again and modify or add anything to it, you are to reject it. So Paul gives the word higher authority than even himself or even an angel of God has no authority over the word.
While there is not neccessarily anything wrong with tradition, i do not want to be ruled by it. I can be certain that God honors the promises in His word. His word has power. Tradtion does not. The gospel is the power of God unto Salvation, not tradition. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word, not tradition. “For the word of
God is living and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart”. Not so for tradition.
I hope this gets you started.
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Canto
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Hi Kalos, thank you for taking the time to respond !!!
V20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
In this case there must be someone (Magesterium) to interpret
He shall be called a Nazarene Matthew notes the prophets saying – this is not recorded in the OT as one example
Not everything is recorded in the Bible.
Why would Paul tells us to hold onto tradition and be wary of those not walking according to tradition?
God’s word isn’t just written alone. If he guards the written word why not the oral word?
Faith comes by hearing (no mention of reading) the word (wether by word or by our epistle).
You may have heard Catholics meniton that Tradtion is living.
None of these verses show/say Scripture is authorative over Sacred Tradition. Paul tells us to hold onto both - not place one above the other.
This can only mean scripture – not necessarily
V20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
In this case there must be someone (Magesterium) to interpret
He shall be called a Nazarene Matthew notes the prophets saying – this is not recorded in the OT as one example
Gospel as you may know means good news – no implication this news is written. In verse 8 Paul uses the word preach. Word or epistle he tells the Thessalonians.
Tradition is part of God’s word – so I don’t understand you not wanting to be “ruled by it.”
Not everything is recorded in the Bible.
Why would Paul tells us to hold onto tradition and be wary of those not walking according to tradition?
God’s word isn’t just written alone. If he guards the written word why not the oral word?
Faith comes by hearing (no mention of reading) the word (wether by word or by our epistle).
You may have heard Catholics meniton that Tradtion is living.
None of these verses show/say Scripture is authorative over Sacred Tradition. Paul tells us to hold onto both - not place one above the other.
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benidict
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wow! a protestant voice with reason. sure is refreshing. this should help the discussion move in a more positive direction. thank you and God bless:thumbsup:
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2nd_Adam
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Please see post 362 for my answer. God is always authorative over all. What we are really discussing is how God reveals Himself authoratively to His children. We both agree that Sacred Scripture is God-breathed. That is pretty authorative to me. What Catholics seem to be saying to me is… God our Heavenly Father is saying that my adoped children at the Catholic Church have the Fullness of Truth and my adopted children a the Protestant Churches only have partial truth; therefore, my children at the Catholic Church are better than my children from my non-Catholic Christian churches. Well, God never makes that kind of that distinctive between Catholics and Protestants in Scripture. You are either in enmity with God and united to Adam (child of the devil), or by the grace of God alone… are now united to Christ and an eternal adopted child of God based on our elder brother Jesus Christ. I rather listen to God my Heavenly Father through His written revelation (Sacred Scripture) over my siblings over at the Catholic Church.
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2nd_Adam
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humble_maid
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What would you say to the Muslims and to the Baha’i believers who make the same claim. Does God change His words? Because all claim that they receive their WORD from God yet we are all divided. I suppose that you need to understand what the Sacred Tradition means first before you can make assumptions on the Catholic Faith. The Holy Spirit is the advocate who reveals the truth not scripture, because it is obvious that scripture alone cannot be interpreted without the HS. We believe that the Magisterium calls upon the HS in order to interpret and relies on the oral tradition handed down from the apostles which no protestant religion can claim.
God Bless you. Remember that we have a desire to love and follow our Lord Jesus; keep this in mind. Maybe then we will begin to heal the rift that was caused by what I call the Rebellion and not the Reformation.
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2nd_Adam
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In all honesty, all Scripture from non-Catholic religions are not from God. Does the Catholic Church believe that the Quran and Book of Mormon are God-Breathed and inspired by God? The Holy Spirit illuminates truth through Sacred Scripture, but I don’t believe He illuminates truth through scripture from non-Christian religions. We agree that the Holy Spirit’s work is illumination of Sacred Scripture, but I do not believe the Holy Spiriti works infallible through the Magestrium. The wind blows and we do not know where it came from. It is the same with the Holy Spirit and His mighty work. He cannot be contained inside the Catholic Church, but rather He is working in all tongue, tribes and nations to the glory of our Triune God.
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - Jesus
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tweetymom
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Amen brother!
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guanophore
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No, 2nd. On the contrary, this is a very common topic here on CAF, and if you wish to search the threads, you will find that I have addressed it many times. It is off topic in this thread, though. If you are serious (which I doubt at this point that you are) about discussing it, please open a thread in Apologetics where it belongs. You have more creative ways of derailing your own thread than anyone I know!
The Faith handed down to us from the Apostles (Catholics) may not have answers that satisfy you. However, this says more about your refusal to accept what God has revealed, and your choice to cling to modern innovations created by those who are separated from the Apostolic Succession.
Again, it is off topic in this thread. Unlike our Calvanist separated brethren, we accept the Teachings of Jesus as relevant to the topic of salvation. Of interest in this matter, thereofre, is the parable of the Prodigal Son, who, though he separated himself from his inheritance, was still his father’s son. The question for you would be (if you can accept that this parable is relevant) if the son had chosen not to repent and return, and had died in the pig stye, whould he have been reunited with his inheritance?
There are some Catholics who, having died to sin, return to live in it. The nature of sin has not changed. Sin still separates us from God.
And one which seems to have more bearing on the topic thread than apostasy.
Actually, if all his time at CAF does for him is show him that he does not have all the answers, and that there are Catholics who know their scriptures and their faith, and that his efforts to convert us into “bible christians” fail, that is a lot.he has trouble answering alot of questions. he totally ignores the question when it has him up against a wall. its called a bypass. i really do believe there is something more to this than hes letting on. either he just likes to start something he cant finish or he really is convinced by what hes learning here and hes just too afraid to admit it. so dont hold your breath my friend. hes not gonna answere
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humble_maid
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How would you know what distinction God gives? Protestants do have partial truth because they have totally disregarded the oral and sacred tradition. Here are scriptures which I believe have already been given to you but was not adressed by you.
2 THESS 2:13-16
13 Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle. *Traditions… See here that the unwritten traditions are no less to be received than their epistles. *15 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope in grace, 16 Exhort your hearts and confirm you in every good work and word.
The bible was not yet given to the early christians; they went on both the oral word and epistles(written word) of God. Certain dialogues and oral stories were not integrated into the bible so we call them Tradition—*The word tradition (Greek paradosis) in the ecclesiastical sense, which is the only one in which it is used here, refers sometimes to the thing (doctrine, account, or custom) transmitted from one generation to another; sometimes to the organ(Church) or mode of the transmission (kerigma ekklisiastikon, predicatio ecclesiastica). newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm
The Catholic Church defined the canons of the Old and New Testaments at the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397). Before that time Christians weren’t certain exactly which books belonged in the canon because the Church hadn’t yet made a definitive decision on the issue. It was from this time forward that we see have the bible in its modern form. Therefore, the Lord gave the Church (from its inception till now) the Bible and Oral Tradition as the two ways of preserving and handing on a single thing, the revealed Word of God.
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guanophore
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Where do you find this in Scripture?
This is what we call an “extrabiblical tradition”, in this case, a tradition of man, as opposed to Sacred Tradition. However, I do agree with you in your accurate identification of Sacred Tradition. It is God as revealed to the church.
When Peter speaks of “we have” he is referring to the Church. The NT did not yet exist for several hundred years. Jesus is the greatest revelation by God of Himself to man, and this is what was given to the Apostles.
You are implying that what God revealed to Peter’s eyes and heart was less valid than what was revealed through his pen.
You are implying that the Holy Spirit’s revelation of Truth can be “contaminated” by humanity - that the HS is too weak to preserve divine truth in the heart of a human being.
Ahh. Well, I agree about the perceptions. The problem you are having is that you don’t realize that Scripture also goes through your perceptions. That is why there are as many interpretationsn of it as there are belly buttons!
True. He is speaking here of the preached gospel. Paul, unlike yourself, does trust God to preserve His Word in the hearts and minds of people.
This is what is at the heart of all the “protesting”. It is the same attitude that got Lucifer thrown out of heaven. "I do nto want to be ruled’. However, Jesus did appoint authority, and did it through people. He promised to remain with them, to prevent them from error, and to preserve them to the end. Those who do not wish to submit to the authority He appointed are rejecting Him.
Luk 10:16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
If this were true, then you would have no Bible at all.
What you are saying is that what the Apostles delivered to the church is not God’s Word. It has no power.
What you are saying is that what the Apostles delivered to the saints, and commanded them to preserve, is not the gospel.
What you are saying is that the Word of God delivered to the Church by the Apostles did not have the power to save.
Kalos, you have a warped perception of tradition. There are two kinds of tradition. One, is Sacred Tradition, which is the Word of God that lives in the Church. It is infallible and immutable, just as is the written Word of God.
The other is the tradition of men (customs) about which these statements you have made do apply.
Without a doubt! Nothing gets me more heated than the denial of the Word of God, and insinuations that He is too weak to preserve it.
1Th 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, **the word of God, which is at work in you believers. **
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Carlan
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Hi Tweety, If Adam claims to follow the teachings of Christ handed down to him through the Apostles then he is a Catholic. However, since he does not believe in the whole truth of the Gospel he falls short. I think he has about 20% of the race won, I would say to him, Adam keep going you can do it, Just open up that intellect and go all the way home,don’t give up.
Carlan
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humble_maid
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Firstly, what do you mean by Non-Catholic religions? Aren’t protestants non-catholics?
Secondly, the HS does illuminate truth but not solely through Sacred Scripture. It is the advocate by which it confirms to us the integrity and the underlying meaning of the scriptures; but first and foremost it reveals to us the truth beyond the scriptures. How many people read the scriptures and don’t believe it? Therefore truth is not in scripture but in the HS which reveals it. That is why our Lord Jesus stated that if you do not come to Him like an innocent child then you will not enter the Kingdom of God. What did He mean by this? Do children know what they read if they can read at all? No. So one must have a pure heart and an innocent disposition to accept the truth, then scripture helps to reveal more of God’s plan for us and Who He is.
The HS can inspire men, women and children from all over in different times, places, religions to accept Jesus as Lord and God. Scriptures from the Holy Bible can only confirm these beliefs. Yet without the HS there cannot be any truth gained.
Every protestant speaks of serving God through Christ Jesus but they forget that Jesus promised us the HS as an ‘advocat’,‘comforter’, ‘paraclete’ after He left this world. This HS is the third person of the Triune God whose revelation is as true as the Word of God and the word coming directly from the mouth of God. John 14:16-17: “And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with, you for ever. The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive”; and in John 15:26: “But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.”
The CC has maintained through the Magesterium the guidance of the HS. So all the Sacred and Oral Traditions are a revelation from the HS handed down to us; it is infallible.
God Bless
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guanophore
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Yes, we are in agreement that there are two kinds of tradition, and that it is important to distinguish which is which.
Yes.
This is a false statement.
The fact that someone has followed the Apostolic commandments better than another does nto make them “better children”. It just means they were more obedient children. God loves all His children equally, even when they are disobedient.
Since you have so grossly misunderstood what the Catholic Church believes and teaches, this is certainly understandible. If you are around here long enough, you may come to realzie that there is no disagreement between Sacred Tradition (the Word of God in the Church) and Sacred Scripture.
Oh! Then please direct us, 2nd, to the God-breathed verses that tell us which books belong in the bible (canon).
Then your God is too small, 2nd. Scripture testifies that God can reveal the Truth about Himself in pagan writings, the human conscience, nature, and even the heavens.
Of course, you could not believe that, and still justify your Protesting.
Again, Scripture testifies differently. The first recorded infallible council in Jerusalem shows the Magesterium (teaching authority appointed by Christ) making infallible decisions for the Church, and enacting pastoral directives based upon them. If you say the HS does not work infallibly through the Magesterium, then you are saying the Apostles committed blasphemy when they wrote “it seemed right to the HS and to us”…
You are also saying that you have no reliable basis for your bible. Many of our separated brethren don’t realize that the bible they attempt to use to thump Catholics over the head is itself a product of Sacred Tradition, and of the infalible working of the HS through the Magesterium.
No one is claiming otherwise.
Jesus promised that He would be with His One Body, the Church, and guide them into all Truth. That does not mean that He is not at work elsewhere, guiding others into the Truth.
Being born of the Spirit does not prevent one from being in error, or suffering from only partial information. Unless, of course, you think Apollos was not born again!
I find it interesting that your post ends with a contradiction of what you have asserted at the beginning. A double minded man?..
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bookgirl32
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So, you believe that a “Sacred Tradition” that is not in the Bible is inspired and authoritative equal to Scripture itself. Good to know. One little thing though, I didn’t realize that Protestants established a canon of scripture. Would you point out to me when that happened?
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pismopal
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I am having trouble keeping my legs under me. The “protestant” canon of scripture ? That explains it…not only do they have a different bible…they can interpret it any way they wish
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2nd_Adam
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Do you consider the mission field to be Muslims, Hindus, Athesists and Protestants? Why or why not?Hi Tweety, If Adam claims to follow the teachings of Christ handed down to him through the Apostles then he is a Catholic. However, since he does not believe in the whole truth of the Gospel he falls short. I think he has about 20% of the race won, I would say to him, Adam keep going you can do it, Just open up that intellect and go all the way home,don’t give up.
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2nd_Adam
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Romans chapter 1 is about God given conscience and nature (general revelation). So, within judgment, condemnation, and redemption, what does Scripture tell us about conscience and general revelation (nature). I would study Romans chapter 1 in context with the entire book of Romans before you try to answer. I’m not sure if my God is too small, but rather my God has spoken through Sacred Scripture. But, please don’t gloss over my question to you, because I’m trying to make a point here brother. And how does God reveal eternal redemptive truth in pagan writings?
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