Catholics neeed to read their Bibles!

[elvisman]

What a great post and you are so right!!! Some people think that the Holy Spirit works only in Catholics and that God only works in Catholics, wrong.

The Holy spirit can work in atheists - that’s how people are converted.
BUT the will of God is for ALL to belong to His ONLY Church - the Catholic Church.

 

[tweetymom]

The Holy spirit can work in atheists - that’s how people are converted.
BUT the will of God is for ALL to belong to His ONLY Church - the Catholic Church.

So you are saying that God only works in Catholics?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I agree. this does not prevent them from falling into doctrinal errors.

Yes, I agree. However, He also created a visible Church, with visible authority, and commanded that differences should be settled by the authority He appointed. this Body, His Church, is not to be separated from the Holy Scriptures produced by it. You started this thread a a method of exhorting Catholics to read their bibles more. What you have discovered is that Catholics do not read scripture in isolation from the Sacred Tradition that produced it. You reject the Word of God that lives in the Church, and by that rejection, you bring separation.

Do you understand that all of our visible churches have to define the visible church. In the Reformed Faith, it is taught that the Catholic Church is not part of the visible church because it does not meet the marks of a true visible church. However, within the Catholic Church, there are Christians who are part of the invisible church, yet not part of the true visible church. I’m not trying to say that I agree or disagree with this position. I am just trying to share with you that within Christendom, we have different views of the visible church. I will post the Westminster Confession of Faith to support this post. Historically, the Reformers always believed in both the visible church and invisible church.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XXV
Of the Church

I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all.[1]

II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6]

III. Unto this catholic visible Church Christ has given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and does, by His own presence and Spirit, according to His promise, make them effectual thereunto.[7]

IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible.[8] And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[9]

V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan.[11] Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.[12]

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Now correct me if I’m wrong but, doesn’t the Holy Spirit guide us into all truth and convict us when we are standing against the truth. But we as believers have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and sense Him on a daily basis…how come we aren’t convicted of the “sin” of separation from the “true visible Church”? Could it be because we look through spiritual lenses and see anyone who is a believer as a brother or sister in Christ? Could God for some reason be allowing this to happen within our lives as non-Catholics without conviction from the Holy Spirit?

It seems this would come down to an issue of whether or not the Catholic Church believes we as non-Catholics are becoming A) numb to the Spirits call in our lives or B) just plain out disobedient and fallen from grace.

If B is the case then I have fully affirmed within myself that is not true and I would have to disagree with any individual who holds such a belief, due to the truth that God works in my life through the Holy Spirit as well as many other protestants I know. If A is the case, I believe within myself the way that God works that it is untrue to say I am numb to the Spirits leading and God’s will. Now if neither is the case… it must not be so important an issue that God would convict our hearts and get us “in place” like He does in every other area of our lives dealing with sin. After all we seek the Will of God in our lives, we read the Holy Scriptures, we pray and we experience God just like other true believers…

[SIGN][SIGN]If God is going to convict me at any point for not being Catholic, I pray it would be now so I can be in the truth[/SIGN][/SIGN], but up to this point God has worked and yet not convicted me on this matter. Therefore it only safe to assume I am in the will of God if I strive to live according to what scripture teaches. If God convicts me later in life on this matter, perhaps it was all part of His will and there was a reason I was not convicted in my past (which only God would know why). However; I highly doubt that would be the case just based on what I have already learned and been taught in the Scripture. I will continue to live by what truth* He has shown and continues to show me* and what ways He would have me follow in this day. God bless you all in your relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

If God did not reveal to you yet the teaching’s of the CC how could you be held responsible for something you do not understand? You lost me there.

Also when Adam continues to mis-understand scripture and we show him what GOd has revealed to the Church and taught us what God is really saying how can that be a bad thing?

I mean did Jesus not tell his Apostles to go and teach the word. If they refuse to listen to you shake the dust from you feet and move on. I don’t recall him saying don’t teach anything and let them do what they want?

 

[crazzeto]

1 right thing according to whom?

One true thing might be an exaggeration, but for the most part what Shannon posted is accruate. I appreciate what your position is here, but there is certain axiom which must be accepted, there can only be a single objective historical and theological truth. This truth must be completely supported in Scripture (Bible) as well as by good, accurate scholarship. Adam has repeatedly spouted off factually incorrect arguments, then when he gets backed into a corner he either starts ignoring, or goes into a defensive stance of “I don’t understand why we can’t get along” or some such thing. In my experience it’s just plain ignoring you more often than not.

For instance here is one thing Adam is now ignoring. He made statements that early Christians had no need of any counsol to tell them which books were inspired by God.

Two of us pointed out this is factually incorrect, a fact which is backed up both by history and the bible it’s self as in the bible Paul warns of forged Apostolic letters being circulated. I’m still waiting to hear his response on this, as well as many other arguments he’s put forward, then just started ignoring when the evidence against his argument just started to pile up.

 

[Shannon9791]

1 right thing according to whom?

According to the church you claim to be a part of.

 

[tweetymom]

According to the church you claim to be a part of.

Claim? I am a Catholic, but also respect other religons.

 

[elvisman]

I do not think Adam avoids the truth! And I don’t feel that he is wrong! I am a Christian first and A Catholic. I don’t claim anything that I am not, and I don’t judge people, I am not contibuting to the sins of anyone,sorry you judge me as such. I love all people,even you and others who always think that you are right. I love Jesus and I know that He loves me. Sorry that to you I am wrong, but Jesus counts more than you:thumbsup:

"Christian first, then Catholic". That’s about the most ignorant thing I’ve read on this forum. Catholic IS Christian - in fact, we were the very FIRST Christians. Your statement is an oxymoron.

**As for 2nd Adam - not only does he avoid the truth - he avoids people who refute his arguments, as I have done many times. I have done it not with my own skills but with the truth of the Catholic Church. **
**
Remember - the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15) - nothing else. Jesus and his Church are indivisible - that’s why he identified his very self with it in Acts 9:4-5:
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

 

[elvisman]

So you are saying that God only works in Catholics?

READ my post again instead of shooting from the hip.
I said the Holy Spirit can work in ANYBODY - even atheists.
He works to bring ALL to His Church.

 

[tweetymom]

"Christian first, then Catholic". That’s about the most ignorant thing I’ve read on this forum. Catholic IS Christian - in fact, we were the very FIRST Christians. Your statement is an oxymoron.

**As for 2nd Adam - not only does he avoid the truth - he avoids people who refute his arguments, as I have done many times. I have done it not with my own skills but with the truth of the Catholic Church.
**
Remember - the Church is the *“pillar and foundation of truth” *(1 Tim. 3:15) - nothing else. Jesus and his Church are indivisible - that’s why he identified his very self with it in Acts 9:4-5:
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Sorry to diagree with you on the ignorant thing? And thanks for calling me ignorant. God Bless you anyway and love:thumbsup:

 

[2nd_Adam]

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Now correct me if I’m wrong but, doesn’t the Holy Spirit guide us into all truth and convict us when we are standing against the truth. But we as believers have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and sense Him on a daily basis…how come we aren’t convicted of the “sin” of separation from the “true visible Church”? Could it be because we look through spiritual lenses and see anyone who is a believer as a brother or sister in Christ? Could God for some reason be allowing this to happen within our lives as non-Catholics without conviction from the Holy Spirit?

It seems this would come down to an issue of whether or not the Catholic Church believes we as non-Catholics are becoming A) numb to the Spirits call in our lives or B) just plain out disobedient and fallen from grace.

If B is the case then I have fully affirmed within myself that is not true and I would have to disagree with any individual who holds such a belief, due to the truth that God works in my life through the Holy Spirit as well as many other protestants I know. If A is the case, I believe the way that God works within me that it is untrue to say I am numb to the Spirits leading and God’s will. Now if neither is the case… it must not be so important an issue that God would convict our hearts and get us “in place” like He does in every other area of our lives dealing with sin. After all we seek the Will of God in our lives, we read the Holy Scriptures, we pray and we experience God just like other true believers…

If God is going to convict me at any point for not being Catholic, I pray it would be now so I can be in the truth, but up to this point God has worked and yet not convicted me on this matter. Therefore it only safe to assume I am in the will of God if I strive to live according to what scripture teaches. If God convicts me later in life on this matter, perhaps it was all part of His will and there was a reason I was not convicted in my past (which only God would know why). However; I highly doubt that would be the case just based on what I have already learned and been taught in the Scripture. I will continue to live by what truth* He has shown and continues to show me* and what ways He would have me follow in this day. God bless you all in your relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I agree with Tweetymom, this is a very mature and wonderful post!

 

[elvisman]

Claim? I am a Catholic, but also respect other religons.

Your posts indicate that you are Catholic in name only. You tout Pro-Abortion candidates and say that you’d vote for them again. You don’t understand Catholic positions on Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. You CLEARLY don’t understand the Catholic Faith.

"By their fruits you shall know them" (Matt. 7:16).

 

[elvisman]

Sorry to diagree with you on the ignorant thing? And thanks for calling me ignorant. God Bless you anyway and love:thumbsup:

Christian vs. Catholic IS ignorance.
Study the faith you claim to be a part of before making silly comparisons like this.

 

[Cr8ton]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

If God did not reveal to you yet the teaching’s of the CC how could you be held responsible for something you do not understand? You lost me there.

Also when Adam continues to mis-understand scripture and we show him what GOd has revealed to the Church and taught us what God is really saying how can that be a bad thing?

I mean did Jesus not tell his Apostles to go and teach the word. If they refuse to listen to you shake the dust from you feet and move on. I don’t recall him saying don’t teach anything and let them do what they want?

I have been to an RCIA after I had first became a believer and accepted Jesus’ Lordship over my life. I felt I was learning things that were expounded upon apart from the Word itself. Therefore I felt led to read the Bible and then if scripture permitted, take on the things of the Catholic tradition. Since that point I have never felt the urge or leading of the Spirit to pursue the things I once heard in RCIA. Nor do I feel I am missing any viable truths that God hasn’t yet revealed to me. If someone is sensitive to the Spirits leading and it was God’s will for them to be in the Catholic church. In my mind it wouldn’t be very hard for God to let it be known. I feel I am having faith that God will take me into all truth since His word clearly states the Holy Spirit guides us. Therefore why is it I am not having this desire?? like i said, there are only so many possibilities. My main focus is understanding the pivotal point of where Catholics and Protestants differ and then praying on the matter and seeing which ones aligns with scripture, and of course which one God confirms in my own heart. The truth is true believers will always seek the absolute truth that God has declared, and God has graciously provided with me the faith to believe that He will not misguide us nor let us be led astray. That is just not the God we serve. here is the formula: Scripture + prayer for wisdom, understanding, guidance, truth + love for God + love for others = Spirit leading them into the TRUTH that God so desires we all know and believe.

However I don’t believe a denomination is in anyway a determination of ones salvation by any means. I am not against Catholics, I prefer to look beyond the whole denomination idea as a whole and know that all of us as believer are true brothers and sisters in Christ. We are family, and if we don’t continue to fix our eyes on the unseen and get caught up in the physical realm we start to think that way as well. God bless

 

[2nd_Adam]

One true thing might be an exaggeration, but for the most part what Shannon posted is accruate. I appreciate what your position is here, but there is certain axiom which must be accepted, there can only be a single objective historical and theological truth. This truth must be completely supported in Scripture (Bible) as well as by good, accurate scholarship. Adam has repeatedly spouted off factually incorrect arguments, then when he gets backed into a corner he either starts ignoring, or goes into a defensive stance of “I don’t understand why we can’t get along” or some such thing. In my experience it’s just plain ignoring you more often than not.

For instance here is one thing Adam is now ignoring. He made statements that early Christians had no need of any counsol to tell them which books were inspired by God.

Two of us pointed out this is factually incorrect, a fact which is backed up both by history and the bible it’s self as in the bible Paul warns of forged Apostolic letters being circulated. I’m still waiting to hear his response on this, as well as many other arguments he’s put forward, then just started ignoring when the evidence against his argument just started to pile up.

The Apostles and especially Jesus quoted the Old Testament Scriptures as the authorative Word of God. So, what church council is telling Jesus that the Old Testament cannon is the Word of God?

 

[crazzeto]

Claim? I am a Catholic, but also respect other religons.

So do I, but respecting other religions doesn’t mean compramising the truth. How can you believe in God, if you don’t accept the Truth of God? How can you be sure of anything, you 're willing to throw out that which you know to be true, in the name of “respecting” other religions. Respect does not, and should not ever equate to throwing out the Truth of God.

The fact is, there aren’t many different perspectives all of them true as today’s culture wants you to believe. This is a horrific fallocy, it’s also logically unsupportable. There is in fact, a single objective truth. There are those who do not accept the truth, or only partially accept the truth. That doesn’t make them “every bit as right as anyone else”, that makes them partially right, partially wrong.

 

[tweetymom]

**Your posts indicate **that you are Catholic in name only. You tout Pro-Abortion candidates and say that you’d vote for them again. You don’t understand Catholic positions on Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. You CLEARLY don’t understand the Catholic Faith.

"By their fruits you shall know them" (Matt. 7:16).

I am not a Catholic in name only and by what fruits would you like to be judged by? I have a few in mind but not very loving so I will leave that up to God. I under stand Catholic postions, in fact teach them in RCIA also teach the Catholic faith there also. I never teach anything other than what the Church says! My walk with Jesus is a private matter.

 

[crazzeto]

The Apostles and especially Jesus quoted the Old Testament Scriptures as the authorative Word of God. So, what church council is telling Jesus that the Old Testament cannon is the Word of God?

LOL!!! Nice attempt to rewrite what you posted, you were speaking of any book in the bible. More over you are still wrong, Jesus didn’t just quote from the OT, he quoted from the Septuigant! Currently only Roman Catholics, and E. Orthodox faithfully include this as their OT, Protistants by and large reject this in favor of current jewish cannon (for what reason, I don’t know). Christians back then needed to know which books in the bible were cannonical, just as Christians today need to know.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Holy spirit can work in atheists - that’s how people are converted.
BUT the will of God is for ALL to belong to His ONLY Church - the Catholic Church.

You need to define what you mean by “is the will of God”. If you mean by the will of God in which whatever God ordains from eternity past, and God’s will is always done, then you have to take a step back and ask why not all Christians are Catholic. In addition, if you believe the will of God that all humans are willed to be Catholic, then why does most of the world do not even believe in Jesus Christ? I believe that Scripture reveals that whatever God ordains will always come to pass. God is completely sovereign, and through divine providence… He is causing alll things to come to pass according to what He wills.

 

[tweetymom]

So do I, but respecting other religions doesn’t mean compramising the truth. How can you believe in God, if you don’t accept the Truth of God? How can you be sure of anything, you 're willing to throw out that which you know to be true, in the name of “respecting” other religions. Respect does not, and should not ever equate to throwing out the Truth of God.

The fact is, there aren’t many different perspectives all of them true as today’s culture wants you to believe. This is a horrific fallocy, it’s also logically unsupportable. There is in fact, a single objective truth. There are those who do not accept the truth, or only partially accept the truth. That doesn’t make them “every bit as right as anyone else”, that makes them partially right, partially wrong.

Thank you too for the judgement call and God Bless