Catholics neeed to read their Bibles!

[mackbrislawn]

I think that in RCIA and faith formation classes scriptural basis for Church teachings and doctrines should be referenced more. As it is, most Catholics have no idea how their beliefs are founded in scripture.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The problem is that you think everyone else “knows in part” and that you personally “know in full”. The problem is that you keep taking verses and using them completely out of context, despite the fact that you keep warning us against such action, and then defend your interpretation by waying that we only “know in part”. We know fully and without doubt the Truth as revealed to the Church through the Holy Spirit by Jesus, 2nd Adam.

That’s simply a lie sister. I have always posted that I personally know in part and error somewhere. I’ve answered your question. Please do the same and answer my questions to you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think that in RCIA and faith formation classes scriptural basis for Church teachings and doctrines should be referenced more. As it is, most Catholics have no idea how their beliefs are founded in scripture.

Thanks for sharing your view, it was very insightful… especially in regards to the OP and thread topic link!

 

[bookgirl32]

That’s simply a lie sister. I have always posted that I personally know in part and error somewhere. I’ve answered your question. Please do the same and answer my questions to you.

So you’re not claiming that you are part of the elect, that you are saved the way you believe you are saved, and that your interpretation of salvation as taught in the Bible is correct? You’re saying that you could be wrong?

 

[2nd_Adam]

So you’re not claiming that you are part of the elect, that you are saved the way you believe you are saved, and that your interpretation of salvation as taught in the Bible is correct? You’re saying that you could be wrong?

Well, it all depends on what doctrine we are discussing. Remember, we share many of the historic creeds and essential doctrines of the Christian Faith. I have no doubt that the Scriptures is the Word of God, and that Jesus is God incarnate, and the the doctrine of the Trinity is true.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Thanks for sharing your view, it was very insightful… especially in regards to the OP and thread topic link!

It is very telling that when someone offers you something that is counter to your claims you respond that it is just their opinion. But when someone agrees with you (by offering their own opinion) you count it as “very insightful”

Interesting

Careful 2nd Adam, your true colors are showing.

God bless

 

[bookgirl32]

Well, it all depends on what doctrine we are discussing. Remember, we share many of the historic creeds and essential doctrines of the Christian Faith. I have no doubt that the Scriptures is the Word of God, and that Jesus is God incarnate, and the the doctrine of the Trinity is true.

We are discussing whether or not you believe yourself to be on of the “elect” as you define it. Are you or are you not sure that you are one of these “elect”?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Well, it all depends on what doctrine we are discussing. Remember, we share many of the historic creeds and essential doctrines of the Christian Faith. I have no doubt that the Scriptures is the Word of God, and that Jesus is God incarnate, and the the doctrine of the Trinity is true.

Can you point me to where in Scripture it lays out the “essential” doctrines? As a Catholic who has read their Bible, I have never come across the section which lists the “essentials”.

God bless

 

[josie_L]

According to the authorative Word of God known as Sacred Scripture, all that God intends to be saved will be saved. That group of sinners are called vessels of mercy, the elect, the chosen, His Sheep, Saints, adopted sons, legtimate sons, wheat, etc. Do you disagree with my conclusion? It is by the Spirit of God that I understand this truth. Now, what is the Catholic view of who will be saved?

The Catholic church does believe in predestination (but not as Calvin does) however it must not violate our free will. I will post more specifics in just a bit.

 

[crazzeto]

Can you point me to where in Scripture it lays out the “essential” doctrines? As a Catholic who has read their Bible, I have never come across the section which lists the “essentials”.

God bless

From the Douay-Rheims bible:

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=61&ch=1&l=3&f=s#x

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and of Christ Jesus our hope: 2 To Timothy, his beloved son in faith. Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father, and from Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 As I desired thee to remain at Ephesus when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some not to teach otherwise, 4 Not to give heed to fables and endless genealogies: which furnish questions rather than the edification of God, which is in faith.

Sounds a lot like there aren’t any non-essential doctrains to me.

 

[josie_L]

According to the authorative Word of God known as Sacred Scripture, all that God intends to be saved will be saved. That group of sinners are called vessels of mercy, the elect, the chosen, His Sheep, Saints, adopted sons, legtimate sons, wheat, etc. Do you disagree with my conclusion? It is by the Spirit of God that I understand this truth. Now, what is the Catholic view of who will be saved?

Here are the specifics:

“The Catholic Church, following St. Augustine (e.g., Grace and Free Will, 1,1; Sermon 169, 11,13), accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man’s free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).”

“The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a de fide dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty), while at the same time affirming free will and the possibility of falling away from the faith.”

“But, there is no official teaching on how exactly this comes into play. There are numerous theological schools of thought on the matter, the two major ones being the Thomists and the Molinists. I tend to subscribe to the former. The latter is closer to the Arminian position.”

"Any theological position on election, however, must conform with the Church’s soteriological teachings. Molinism, Thomism, and Arminianism all conform, Calvinism does not. To conform, your theology must accept the following:

1. Free will; that is, God allows people to choose him, and allows them to reject them. People always have the option. Thus election, if you believe it, must be an act of persuasion and not compulsion.
2. Co-operation; it is necessary for salvation for a man to cooperate with God’s grace. Man must continuously allow God’s grace to work in him. If at any point a man prevents this, he falls from grace.
3. Jesus died for all men, and his sacrifice has the potential of saving all, but his act did not automatically save anyone, only those who choose to accept him.
4. Man is born in a state of sin, and must be called by God in order to accept Him and thus receive the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
5. God predestines no one to Hell. i.e. you can only believe in negative reprobation, not positive.

There are, of course, many other teachings on salvation, but these are the main ones. Thomism, unlike Calvinism, accepts all of them. The main difference between the various schools of thought is how the calling grace of point 4 get dispensed, and its effects. Thomists maintain that God does not bestow it on everyone, while Molinists maintain that he does."

catholicsource.net/Predestination.html

 

[bookgirl32]

Here are the specifics:

The Catholic Church, following St. Augustine (e.g., Grace and Free Will, 1,1; Sermon 169, 11,13), accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man’s free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a de fide dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty), while at the same time affirming free will and the possibility of falling away from the faith.

But, there is no official teaching on how exactly this comes into play. There are numerous theological schools of thought on the matter, the two major ones being the Thomists and the Molinists. I tend to subscribe to the former. The latter is closer to the Arminian position.

Any theological position on election, however, must conform with the Church’s soteriological teachings. Molinism, Thomism, and Arminianism all conform, Calvinism does not. To conform, your theology must accept the following:

1. Free will; that is, God allows people to choose him, and allows them to reject them. People always have the option. Thus election, if you believe it, must be an act of persuasion and not compulsion.
2. Co-operation; it is necessary for salvation for a man to cooperate with God’s grace. Man must continuously allow God’s grace to work in him. If at any point a man prevents this, he falls from grace.
3. Jesus died for all men, and his sacrifice has the potential of saving all, but his act did not automatically save anyone, only those who choose to accept him.
4. Man is born in a state of sin, and must be called by God in order to accept Him and thus receive the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
5. God predestines no one to Hell. i.e. you can only believe in negative reprobation, not positive.

There are, of course, many other teachings on salvation, but these are the main ones. Thomism, unlike Calvinism, accepts all of them. The main difference between the various schools of thought is how the calling grace of point 4 get dispensed, and its effects. Thomists maintain that God does not bestow it on everyone, while Molinists maintain that he does.

catholicsource.net/Predestination.html

Thanks.

 

[elvisman]

That’s simply a lie sister. I have always posted that I personally know in part and error somewhere. I’ve answered your question. Please do the same and answer my questions to you.

No – Bookgirl32 is dead on correct.
Your signature line is a CLASSIC example of how you take things out of context.
You misrepresent the Catholic position by twisting and perverting statements by Benedict XVI regarding Martin Luther.
I have already exposed** you on this point in an earlier post.**
However, in case you missed it, here it is again:

Benedict XVI said that Luther was right – only if he meant faith WORKING through love as Paul mentions in Galations 5:14.
In other words – WORKS – not just an intellectual ascent to belief as many Protestants hold to. True faith is ONLY true faith if it WORKS in charity and love and one surrenders oneself totally. Simply believing is NOT faith.

You bastardize B-XVI’s comments when you abbreviate what he said because you butcher the meaning – but I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know.
As an anti-Catholic, you do this to antagonize Catholics.

**THIS ****is what Benedict XVI ****ACTUALLY **said:

The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).
**Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. ****Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled.We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love. We shall see the same thing in the Gospel next Sunday, the Solemnity of Christ the King. It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love. What he asks is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you give me food to eat when I was hungry, did you clothe me when I was naked? And thus justice is decided in charity. ****Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone. **But there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St Paul. It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way.

 

[Carlan]

I am trying to have a starting point in which we can agree. We are justifed by faith, but we do see things quite differently in our understanding of the doctrine of justification. I believe in penal substitution, and a forensic justification through the imputation of the righteousness of Christ through faith. I believe that we are justified by the righteousness of Christ alone, being an alien righteousness apart from us. How do you see the doctrine of justification as a Catholic Christian?

So you are saying that when Jesus died on the cross for our sins he paid the penalty, and in faith if you believe and acknowedge that, you are then Justified,saved.

That is true, but you cannot stop there. If you do not respond or cooperate with God’s grace through faith working in love you can in no way please the Father.

what you are believing is the fundamental belief of once saved always saved and that belief is simply not truth. It can be peached till the cows come home Adam, You still have to do what Paul says in no uncertain terms. Work out your salvation in fear and trembling
knowing that it is God"s gift of grace that is working in us(Phil.2:12) That is what Catholics believe. plain and simple. :thumbsup:Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Catholic church does believe in predestination (but not as Calvin does) however it must not violate our free will. I will post more specifics in just a bit.

I’m not sure if you want to open the can of worms of predestination. Just like the Catholic Faith, you will find variation on a Calvinistic view on predestination, and even a greater variation within Protestantism. Actually, the majority of Protestants who are Arminian line-up with a Catholic view of these issues.

 

[josie_L]

I’m not sure if you want to open the can of worms of predestination. Just like the Catholic Faith, you will find variation on a Calvinistic view on predestination, and even a greater variation within Protestantism. Actually, the majority of Protestants who are Arminian line-up with a Catholic view of these issues.

I was just telling you of our position with respect to predestination that is all. God bless.

 

[2nd_Adam]

So you are saying that when Jesus died on the cross for our sins he paid the penalty, and in faith if you believe and acknowedge that, you are then Justified,saved.

That is true, but you cannot stop there. If you do not respond or cooperate with God’s grace through faith working in love you can in no way please the Father.

what you are believing is the fundamental belief of once saved always saved and that belief is simply not truth. It can be peached till the cows come home Adam, You still have to do what Paul says in no uncertain terms. Work out your salvation in fear and trembling
knowing that it is God"s gift of grace that is working in us(Phil.2:12) That is what Catholics believe. plain and simple. :thumbsup:Carlan

Well, I am not coming from an Arminian Protestant persepctive of decisional regeneration.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I was just telling you of our position with respect to predestination that is all. God bless.

As long as we understand that our views of predestination should never divide us. As you probably know, Reformed Christians value the views of Augustine.

 

[josie_L]

No – Bookgirl32 is dead on correct.
Your signature line is a CLASSIC example of how you take things out of context.
You misrepresent the Catholic position by twisting and perverting statements by Benedict XVI regarding Martin Luther.
I have already exposed** you on this point in an earlier post.**
However, in case you missed it, here it is again:

Benedict XVI said that Luther was right – only if he meant faith WORKING through love as Paul mentions in Galations 5:14.
In other words – WORKS – not just an intellectual ascent to belief as many Protestants hold to. True faith is ONLY true faith if it WORKS in charity and love and one surrenders oneself totally. Simply believing is NOT faith.

You bastardize B-XVI’s comments when you abbreviate what he said because you butcher the meaning – but I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know.
As an anti-Catholic, you do this to antagonize Catholics.

**THIS ****is what Benedict XVI **ACTUALLY said:

The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love**. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).**
**Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. ****Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled.We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love. We shall see the same thing in the Gospel next Sunday, the Solemnity of Christ the King. It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love. What he asks is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you give me food to eat when I was hungry, did you clothe me when I was naked? And thus justice is decided in charity. **Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone. But there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St Paul. It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way.

I mentioned this to him as well (about faith working in love which equates to faith and works; too bad Luther didn’t understand this though as it would have saved us a lot of trouble). God bless elvisman.

p.s. How are you doing by the way?

 

[josie_L]

As long as we understand that our views of predestination should never divide us. As you probably know, Reformed Christians value the views of Augustine.

I love my fellow Christians (even though some might not like us) so I would never allow your views to divided us, but I would take exception if you tried to misinterpret Catholic teaching. I would like to ask do you believe in total deprivation as I’m interested why you believe this if you do? God bless.