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2nd_Adam
Guest
Of course, don’t you think you are united to Christ by faith too? You can make your calling and election sure according to Peter.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think Luther said the same thing in which Pope Benedict taught too.I mentioned this to him as well (about faith working in love which equates to faith and works; too bad Luther didn’t understand this though as it would have saved us a lot of trouble). God bless elvisman.
p.s. How are you doing by the way?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Well, I believe we are all born spirituality dead and in enmity with God according to Scrirpture, and that God makes us spirituality alive. Therefore, I believe our new birth is completely dependent on the grace and mercy of God.I love my fellow Christians (even though some might not like us) so I would never allow your views to divided us, but I would take exception if you tried to misinterpret Catholic teaching. I would like to ask do you believe in total deprivation as I’m interested why you believe this if you do? God bless.
J
josie_L
Guest
Adam, he did not understand the Church’s position concerning faith and works, and I don’t think Martin Luther had the same concept of faith alone as understood by the CC (whether then or now). Let me find the article which delineated somewhat Luther’s views on faith alone.I think Luther said the same thing in which Pope Benedict taught too.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I agree that Protestants understand the doctrine of justification by faith differently. But, should that divide us? However, Luther did not believe in a faith through mental ascent alone.Adam, he did not understand the Church’s position concerning faith and works, and I don’t think Martin Luther had the same concept of faith alone as understood by the CC (whether then or now). Let me find the article which delineated somewhat Luther’s views on faith alone.
“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
Martin Luther
I do understand that Luther believed in an alien righteousness apart from self as the basis of our justification, which received through faith… will transform us in charity, love, and personal holiness… progressively thoughout the Christian life.
B
bookgirl32
Guest
I think that I am united to Christ by grace in a faith working through love. I do not agree with you that I can “make my calling and election sure” according to Peter. However, since you are sure that you can, by what authority do you get this assurance?Of course, don’t you think you are united to Christ by faith too? You can make your calling and election sure according to Peter.
T
Trinityisgod
Guest
ya know, everytime I see an argument like this, I usually tell people I do read my bible, and point to scripture where they’re wrong. This time, it’s not even worth it
B
bookgirl32
Guest
I’m not questioning whether this is an accurate quote, but I’d like to know where you got this quote? What writing of Luther’s is it from?“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
Martin Luther
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2nd_Adam
Guest
It is by the authority of God, that I share this with you. It is His Holy Word, not mine. My assurance in Christ is as good as the promises of God, for it is impossible for God to lie.I think that I am united to Christ by grace in a faith working through love. I do not agree with you that I can “make my calling and election sure” according to Peter. However, since you are sure that you can, by what authority do you get this assurance?
Make Your Calling and Election Sure
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to [3] his own glory and excellence, [4] 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, [5] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities [6] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, [7] be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, [8] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
B
bookgirl32
Guest
But I interpret this passage differently than you do. I honestly believe it says something different than what you believe it says. So who is right?It is by the authority of God, that I share this with you. It is His Holy Word, not mine.
Make Your Calling and Election Sure
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to [3] his own glory and excellence, [4] 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, [5] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities [6] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, [7] be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, [8] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Well, the OP link about “Catholics need to read their Bibles” is from a Catholic which was posted on Catholic Answers.ya know, everytime I see an argument like this, I usually tell people I do read my bible, and point to scripture where they’re wrong. This time, it’s not even worth it
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2nd_Adam
Guest
You have no idea of my understanding of 2 Peter 1. I think you just want to argue for arguing sake. Please explain to me how we understand 2 Peter 1 differently.But I interpret this passage differently than you do. I honestly believe it says something different than what you believe it says. So who is right?
C
crazzeto
Guest
I think he’s talking about your current argument… your inability to even admit the bible is inerrant, and not self-contradictory. It’s getting crazy.Well, the OP link about “Catholics need to read their Bibles” is from a Catholic which was posted on Catholic Answers.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
The Christian Faith does not rise or fall with Luther or Calvin. Please get the source like all of us… the Internet.I’m not questioning whether this is an accurate quote, but I’d like to know where you got this quote? What writing of Luther’s is it from?
J
josie_L
Guest
I do not doubt that we are spiritually reborn but I do not believe we were spiritually dead either by that I mean we still had the will (because according to God we were created in his image) to do good (albeit we had a wounded nature) even after the fall. We were not as Luther and Calvin put it “totally depraved.”Well, I believe we are all born spirituality dead and in enmity with God according to Scrirpture, and that God makes us spirituality alive. Therefore, I believe our new birth is completely dependent on the grace and mercy of God.
B
bookgirl32
Guest
So I can’t get a good understanding of your understanding of 2 Peter 1 from just reading 2 Peter 1, huh?You have no idea of my understanding of 2 Peter 1. I think you just want to argue for arguing sake. Please explain to me how we understand 2 Peter 1 differently.
B
bookgirl32
Guest
You seem to think the quote worthwhile and yet you won’t share it’s source with me?The Christian Faith does not rise or fall with Luther or Calvin. Please get the source like all of us… the Internet.
You claim to be so certain that the Pope and Luther are in accord, and want to really make this point with us, and will post your source of the Pope’s quote, but you won’t post your source of Luther’s quote?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
The source is the Internet:You seem to think the quote worthwhile and yet you won’t share it’s source with me?
You claim to be so certain that the Pope and Luther are in accord, and want to really make this point with us, and will post your source of the Pope’s quote, but you won’t post your source of Luther’s quote?
bing.com/search?q=luther++quote+justification+sanctification&form=QBRE&qs=n
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bookgirl32
Guest
Okay. What website on the internet did you get this quote from?The source is the Internet:
bing.com/search?q=luther++quote+justification+sanctification&form=QBRE&qs=n
J
josie_L
Guest
Ok, here’s the article I was mentioning:I agree that Protestants understand the doctrine of justification by faith differently. But, should that divide us? However, Luther did not believe in a faith through mental ascent alone.
“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
Martin Luther
I do understand that Luther believed in an alien righteousness apart from self as the basis of our justification, which received through faith… will transform us in charity, love, and personal holiness… progressively thoughout the Christian life.
**Luther’s “discovery”
The thought came to him that Paul meant nothing less than that the righteousness of God could be made" our own simply by trusting in the righteousness of Christ. Luther thought he had been wasting his time and his efforts in trying to do for himself what Christ had already done for him. A feeling of immense relief swept over him. He felt that he was saved and that he could be saved in no other way than this.
When he began to teach theology, in 1512, he put forward his theory of justification by faith alone, of God’s forgiving love freely bestowed upon all who simply repent of their sins and trust in Christ. He convinced himself that that was the true faith of the Catholic Church, and he tried to combine his new-found doctrine with all other teaching of Catholic theology.
Gradually, however, Luther encountered opposition to his new theory of justification by faith alone. On October 31,1517 he published his 95 Theses, declaring that indulgences destroyed the true spirit of repentance. Called to account, he refused to recant his views unless refuted by biblical evidence itself, refusing to accept the authority and traditional teachings of the Church as reliable sources of doctrine.
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9304fea1.asp
Human nature has been totally corrupted by original sin, and man, accordingly, is deprived of free will. Whatever he does, be it good or bad, is not his own work, but God’s.
Faith alone can work justification, and man is saved by confidently believing that God will pardon him. This faith not only includes a full pardon of sin, but also an unconditional release from its penalties.
**
This is not exactly the same as you mentioned already but sufficiently different to set alarm bells off (who’s right), that being said this should not divide us as Christians.
By the way, remember the quote I said I would find from Martin Luther on the status of society after the introduction of “faith alone”, well I found it. Here it is:
**Martin Luther, as inveterate an enemy of the Catholic Church as ever lived, was forced to admit: “Under the papacy the people were at least charitable, and force was not required to obtain alms. Today, under the reign of the Gospel [by which he meant Protestantism], in place of giving they rob each other, and it might be said that no one thinks he has anything till he gets the possession of the property of his neighbor.” **
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