Catholics neeed to read their Bibles!

[estesbob]

YES he does and I don’t teach any of that it is my personal beleif. I know that I am saved by Gods grace and have a personal relationship with Jesus. I read the Bible and believe in it totally.o carry on with your witch hunt.

So your personal belief is the the Catholic Church is dead wrong on its core doctrines but its OK for you to teach our faith to people who are aspiring to becomne Catholics as long as you dont let them know you dont believe what you are teaching them?

 

[tweetymom]

So your personal belief is the the Catholic Church is dead wrong on its core doctrines but its OK for you to teach our faith to people who are aspiring to becomne Catholics as long as you dont let them know you dont believe what you are teaching them?

I said I didn’t agree with everything the Church but would never teach that to anyone. Thats for you to find out how you believe. Carry on with your wich hunt. At least you are leaving Adam alone:thumbsup:

 

[qui_est_ce]

The article cited in the OP is from 2004!

I have done 10 Bible studies since then!! Many were put together Protestant converts and Catholic reverts.

Catholics have come a long way since that article was written. There needs to be MORE Catholics who study Scripture, but that doesn’t mean MANY aren’t already doing it!

Having said that, not everyone can or are called to be Scripture scholars. Humbly witnessing one’s faith is much more important than sparring semantics.

In one of the Psalms, it says “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.”

In today’s Gospel Luke 13, Jesus performed a miracle on the Sabbath. Jesus said the law is made for man, not man for the law.

In Luke 12, Jesus says, I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing!

Jeremiah 4:4 says we should be circumcised in our hearts, not only in our flesh.

 

[qui_est_ce]

PLEASE DO!!! The answer has been given to him numerous times anyway by numerous people. I just wish he’d listen to one of them.

{sigh} another Protestant coming to lecture us Catholics on what the Bible says sigh

They always start “Catholics, can you explain xxx?” This is to set up the argument of their superior knowledge of the truth.

blah blah blah blah

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Thank you for your so spaecial concern, I will say amen to all of Adams posts!

I am sorry to hear that and even more sorry to know, that after it was explained to you that what the statement said was that Catholic leaders are not of God, that you still stand by your amen

Sorry to hear that but God bless nonetheless

 

[2nd_Adam]

I said I didn’t agree with everything the Church but would never teach that to anyone. Thats for you to find out how you believe. Carry on with your witch hunt. At least you are leaving Adam alone:thumbsup:

Please leave tweetymom alone!

 

[Canto]

And you are right I am all those things and proud of the fact that I am saved by Gods grace!

3.no

Apostles forgiving sins ???

John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

God Bless

 

[Canto]

The Apostles and especially Jesus quoted the Old Testament Scriptures as the authorative Word of God. So, what church council is telling Jesus that the Old Testament cannon is the Word of God?

The apostles also quoted from apocryphal works too
And quoted from oral tradtion
And they quoted from and alluded to the Deuterocanon!

Jesus might have know what the canon was, but scripture doesn’t recrod him telling anyone what it is.

I agree with your view from my perspective, that the Word of God is not complete with the 39 OT books. The sufficient complete Word of God has 66 books!

Word OR epistle
The Bible does not contain the complete word of God
And there are 73 books
With what authority do you claim there are 39
How do you know - if the Spirit - why is He telling Catholics something different
If we just miss understand Him - how do you know it’s not you who missunderstand?

I honestly believe that you are unable to tell me how Pope Benedict’s teaching on justification by faith alone is different than what historic Protestants believe in regards to justification by faith alone.

Read, if you have a moment, the compendium to the Cathechism (promulgated by Pope Benedict) on justification, faith and works and see if Luther would give it a thumbs up.

Part 3, Chapter 3, 422-428
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION
422. What is justification?

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#Gods%20Salvation:%20Law%20and%20Grace

 

[2nd_Adam]

The apostles also quoted from apocryphal works too
And quoted from oral tradtion
And they quoted from and alluded to the Deuterocanon!

Jesus might have know what the canon was, but scripture doesn’t recrod him telling anyone what it is.

Word OR epistle
The Bible does not contain the complete word of God
And there are 73 books
With what authority do you claim there are 39
How do you know - if the Spirit - why is He telling Catholics something different
If we just miss understand Him - how do you know it’s not you who missunderstand?

Read, if you have a moment, the compendium to the Cathechism (promulgated by Pope Benedict) on justification, faith and works and see if Luther would give it a thumbs up.

Part 3, Chapter 3, 422-428
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION
422. What is justification?

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#Gods%20Salvation:%20Law%20and%20Grace

I have read the Catechism on the doctrine of justification. I have a good understanding on our differences of the doctrine of justification. However, I don’t think you actually understand our differences between our two views of justification. Do you mind sharing it with me? For clarification sake, I believe in a forensic justification.

 

[bookgirl32]

I don’t know maybe you can find it

Tweetymom, I appreciate your efforts at “loving” 2nd Adam. He is hard to dialogue with. I do, however, wonder at your confusion between the concepts of judgement (which no one on this thread so far has uttered a word in regards to the state of 2nd Adam’s soul), and defense of the truth. I’m not trying to tell you how to think, or how to believe. But I can with absolute certainty tell you what the Church you belong to, the Catholic Church, believes, and it does not leave room for different interpretation. You seem to think that 2nd Adam has every right to stand up for his own beliefs, but that we as Catholics do not. I think that’s a double standard.

 

[bookgirl32]

YES he does and I don’t teach any of that it is my personal beleif. I know that I am saved by Gods grace and have a personal relationship with Jesus. I read the Bible and believe in it totally.o carry on with your witch hunt.

So why do you want to be Catholic? I don’t understand why you’d stay, if you disagree with that much of the Church’s teachings. That’s an honest question.

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is in defense of tweetymom who is led by the Spirit!!
And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Wisdom from the Spirit
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ

http://www.casafree.com/modules/xcgal/albums/userpics/12682/Tweety_Love.jpg
Tweetymom is one of the most Christ-like Christian on this site!

 

[bookgirl32]

Okay, first of all, both you and Tweetymom are here of your own accord. This forum is set up to answer questions about the Catholic faith honestly and also to defend the Catholic faith honestly. It is not here in the name of “meeting in the middle”. It is not here to assert everyone’s belief so that they feel comfortable. It and the Catholics on it have every right to defend their own faith, and to correct those who are misrepresenting that faith. That is a purpose of the forum. If you don’t want that to happen, you don’t have to subject yourself to it.

 

[Canto]

I have read the Catechism on the doctrine of justification. I have a good understanding on our differences of the doctrine of justification. However, I don’t think you actually understand our differences between our two views of justification. Do you mind sharing it with me? For clarification sake, I believe in a forensic justification.

Would Protestants agree with this statement on good works: “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.” (Compedium to the Catechism)

“…through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified (Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Chapter 10)".

Then there are the various types of grace the Church speaks of, not to mention our own free will to respond, or not respond, to God’s grace and the grace recieved from the sacraments. Then issues over sanctification and so on.

The council of Trent condemned forensic justification. This article is a good explenation of differences and talks about sanctification too, save me parroting. catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp

Justification is a process that begins at baptism and at any time we can lose such justifcation, in the end we will be judged according to our works.

One apologist noted “justification of the believer is not a forensic declaration of a person’s righteousness, but an actual interior purification of the soul.”

 

[2nd_Adam]

Would Protestants agree with this statement on good works: “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.” (Compedium to the Catechism)

“…through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified (Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Chapter 10)".

Then there are the various types of grace the Church speaks of, not to mention our own free will to respond, or not respond, to God’s grace and the grace recieved from the sacraments. Then issues over sanctification and so on.

The council of Trent condemned forensic justification. This article is a good explenation of differences and talks about sanctification too, save me parroting. catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp

Justification is a process that begins at baptism and at any time we can lose such justifcation, in the end we will be judged according to our works.

One apologist noted “justification of the believer is not a forensic declaration of a person’s righteousness, but an actual interior purification of the soul.”

Here’s a thread created just for you brother!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=392530

 

[zaffiroborant]

So your personal belief is the the Catholic Church is dead wrong on its core doctrines but its OK for you to teach our faith to people who are aspiring to becomne Catholics as long as you dont let them know you dont believe what you are teaching them?

I wonder how people do this? How do you teach people things you don’t believe in, why would you do that??? It’s not like one would have to teach RCIA to get by in life, not like having to teach scientific or economic theories or other things you don’t believe in as part of course. Why would one teach under such false pretenses, why would one participate in leading people into a religion they didn’t themselves believe in, I just don’t understand.

 

[AwGusTeen]

I said I didn’t agree with everything the Church but would never teach that to anyone. Thats for you to find out how you believe. Carry on with your wich hunt. At least you are leaving Adam alone:thumbsup:

So, you voluntarily teach that which you consider to be error? Nice.

 

[guanophore]

 **I do not think** Adam avoids the truth! **And I don't feel **that he is wrong!

I sincerely believe this, Tweety, and I understand that you believe your thoughts and feelings should be the standard of Truth, but they are not. Neither are mine, neither are Adams. Truth is defined by Jesus, and it is so far above our ways that we sometimes cannot even grasp it. I am not accusing you of deliberately reinforcing him in his wrong, either. I trust that you sincerely do not recognize the wrong.

Adam accepts about 80% or more of the Apostolic faith, so he does have the Truth in many areas. However, what we are trying to address with him here are the areas where he has embraced falsity.

I am a Christian first and A Catholic. I don't claim anything that I am not, and I don't judge people, I am not contibuting to the sins of anyone,sorry you judge me as such.

Affirming people in doing wrong does contribute to the sins of others. Read your catechism. I accept that you believe you are doing nothing wrong. That does not make it less wrong.

I love all people,even you and others who always think that you are right.

I think if you are honest, you will recognize that I am not always right. I think, if you are honest, you will also recognize that it really has nothing to do with you and me thinking we are “right”. You seem to believe that “right” is dependent upon what you think and feel, but this is not the case. there is objective Truth, and all of us are responsible to embrace that Truth that has been revealed by God. you and Adam seem to stubbornly resist some aspects of this Truth revealed to us by God. Perhaps it makes you uncomfortable.

I love Jesus and I know that He loves me. Sorry that to you I am wrong, but Jesus counts more than you:thumbsup:

I know you love Jesus, Tweety,a nd so does 2nd Adam.

You are confusing my criticism of your theology with your personhood. It is quite possible to be a good person, and hold to errors. Just read about Apollos in your NT. You and Adam stand in the tradition of Apollos. What did the members of the church do when they wanted to show love to Apollos?

 

[guanophore]

Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Now correct me if I’m wrong but, doesn’t the Holy Spirit guide us into all truth and convict us when we are standing against the truth.

Yes, of course. This passage is written to the Catholic Church. those who depart from it also depart from the Promises made to her by God.

 But we as believers have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and sense Him on a daily basis..how come we aren't convicted of the "sin" of separation from the "true visible Church"?

What makes you think you are not?

Why are you on CAF right now?

Why are you asking this question?

How do you know the HS is not drawing you into unity? How do you know you are not responding to that drawing grace right now? Don’t you think the HS knew we were having this conversation? how did you end up in it? Welcome, by the way.

Could it be because we look through spiritual lenses and see anyone who is a believer as a brother or sister in Christ?

This is part of the Catholic faith which you have accepted.

Could God for some reason be allowing this to happen within our lives as non-Catholics without conviction from the Holy Spirit?

No, the HS always draws all members of the Body into unity.

 It seems this would come down to an issue of whether or not the Catholic Church believes we as non-Catholics are becoming A) numb to the Spirits call in our lives or  B) just plain out disobedient and fallen from grace.

I think both of these things are true, and not just for non-Catholics. However, there are other reasons for the lack of unity. The member who started this thread, as is the case for many of our separated brethren, has never been exposed to the Apostolic faith. One cannot be disobedient to something they have never encountered (at least not on purpose!)

If B is the case then I have fully affirmed within myself that is not true and I would have to disagree with any individual who holds such a belief, due to the truth that God works in my life through the Holy Spirit as well as many other protestants I know.

The fact that a person lacks unity does not mean they are disobedient, lacking in grace, or that the HS is not working in their life. On the contrary, the more the HS works in a persons’ life, the more into unity with the One Body that person will be drawn.

**

If A is the case, I believe the way that God works within me that it is untrue to say I am numb to the Spirits leading and God’s will.**

You may be open to some aspects of His working, but yet numb to the pain of the divisions within His Body. For example, Peter was dutifully following God, and was in the Spirit on the roof when God revealed to him that He wanted to add the Gentiles to the Church. The fact that Peter did not “get” this before did not mean he was not sincerely following the Spirit. He was just a little dense.

Cr8ton:

Now if neither is the case… it must not be so important an issue that God would convict our hearts and get us “in place” like He does in every other area of our lives dealing with sin.

In fact, I believe that fact that you are here having this conversation is evidence He is doing just that.

After all we seek the Will of God in our lives, we read the Holy Scriptures, we pray and we experience God just like other true believers…

If God is going to convict me at any point for not being Catholic, I pray it would be now so I can be in the truth, but up to this point God has worked and yet not convicted me on this matter. Therefore it only safe to assume I am in the will of God if I strive to live according to what scripture teaches.

it is the “safest” thing you have, since you are separated from the Apostolic Tradition.

If God convicts me later in life on this matter, perhaps it was all part of His will and there was a reason I was not convicted in my past (which only God would know why). However; I highly doubt that would be the case just based on what I have already learned and been taught in the Scripture. I will continue to live by what truth* He has shown and continues to show me* and what ways He would have me follow in this day. God bless you all in your relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I sojourned away from the Church for 20 some years, like Tweety did. I am also certain, just as she is, that God used all those experiences to draw me closer to Him.

 

[guanophore]

We all draw lines in the sand, even the Magestrium draws lines in the sand. Does the Catholic Church consider Mormon Christians to be your brother and sisters in Christ? That is a line in the sand.

I agree. The main difference being that Catholic lines in the sand are based upon the Apostles teaching, and yours are based on your own perceptions.