Catholics only: Do you hate homosexual sex acts (as we are obliged to)?

[neuro_nurse]

By propaganda I mean that popular culture equates Catholic teaching on this issue with hatred and violence toward persons…

That’s not necessarily propaganda. Like it or not, there are a lot of people who perceive Christians as hateful of homosexuals and others.

I don’t think that Catholics are largely responsible for this perception. The Church does not teach the homosexuality is a sin, but the more vocal Protestants do equate homosexuality with sin – as if homosexuality is a choice (who in their right mind would make that choice? I have to go with the medical/psychological model on this one)

I think we are seeing the backlash of the public’s perception of Christians as hateful in the publication of books by people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. I’m sure you can think of plenty of other anti-Christian examples.

While we may understand the distinction between hating the sin and loving the sinner, people who already think of us as hateful aren’t going to.

I’ll say it again, I love being a Catholic – one of the things I love about being a Catholic is I’m not one of ‘them.’ I adore my Baptist wife, I like our non-Catholic friends, but I don’t think the way they do and I don’t want to. I want people to know I’m Catholic so they know I’m not one of ‘them.’

My perception of Catholics is that we are loving and charitable. I’ll admit that my response to the topic of this thread has been strongly influenced by what seems to me, right or wrong, to be a contradiction to that perception in the statement that we are supposed to ‘hate’ anything. This thread may have caused you to think about the topic in “a deeper and richer way,” but my immediate response was revulsion.

As I said, I understand the distinction.

 

[estesbob]

That’s not necessarily propaganda. Like it or not, there are a lot of people who perceive Christians as hateful of homosexuals and others.

And the reason they perceive Christians as hateful of homosexuals is we go agaisnt the cultural push to recognize homosexual behavior as just anothe appropriate lifestyle.

I don’t think that Catholics are largely responsible for this perception. The Church does not teach the homosexuality is a sin, but the more vocal Protestants do equate homosexuality with sin – as if homosexuality is a choice (who in their right mind would make that choice? I have to go with the medical/psychological model on this one)

There is no evidecnce that homosexualtiy is genetic and as far as why one would choose that lifestly I suggest you go look at the pictures and commentary on the Fulsom Street festival in San Fransisco.

I think we are seeing the backlash of the public’s perception of Christians as hateful in the publication of books by people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. I’m sure you can think of plenty of other anti-Christian examples.

There has been a backlash agaisnt Christians since the day they marched Jesus out of the Garden. People think Christians are hateful becuase we dare to proclaim there are absolute truths,

While we may understand the distinction between hating the sin and loving the sinner, people who already think of us as hateful aren’t going to.

People who think we are hateful will not chage their mind unitl we accept homosexualtiy, abortion ,contraception et al.

I’ll say it again, I love being a Catholic – one of the things I love about being a Catholic is I’m not one of ‘them.’ I adore my Baptist wife, I like our non-Catholic friends, but I don’t think the way they do and I don’t want to. I want people to know I’m Catholic so they know I’m not one of ‘them.’

We differ greatly with the Baptists on matters of theology but we are nearly lockstep with them on the most imprortant socilal issues((the 5 non-negotiables)-abortion, euthanasia,contraception, fetal stem cell research, and homosexual marriage.

My perception of Catholics is that we are loving and charitable. I’ll admit that my response to the topic of this thread has been strongly influenced by what seems to me, right or wrong, to be a contradiction to that perception in the statement that we are supposed to ‘hate’ anything. This thread may have caused you to think about the topic in “a deeper and richer way,” but my immediate response was revulsion.

We must make sure we dont value being liked over proclaiming the truth

 

[neuro_nurse]

There is no evidecnce that homosexualtiy is genetic

I didn’t say it was and did not intend to imply that it was, but I could easily search the medical literature if you want me to.

Let’s get back to the practical aspects of this discussion.

We believe that homosexual acts are a sin. I assume that most homosexuals do not believe that homosexual acts are sinful. We see biblical truths as truth. In general, non-Christians do not see biblical truths as truth. We believe biblical truth are universal. Non-Christians do not see biblical truths as universal.

If non-Christians do not accept our beliefs and our values, how are we supposed to influence them?

As in the example I gave above, my Protestant classmates sincerely believed I am going to hell because I don’t believe what they believe. I don’t believe I’m going to hell for that reason – or any other, for that matter.

Why would a homosexual listen to you or me when we tell them that their behavior is sinful? If our truth means nothing to someone else, how does it serve her or him?

I’m asking in all sincerity.

 

[blessedtoo]

I didn’t say it was and did not intend to imply that it was, but I could easily search the medical literature if you want me to.

Let’s get back to the practical aspects of this discussion.

We believe that homosexual acts are a sin. I assume that most homosexuals do not believe that homosexual acts are sinful. We see biblical truths as truth. In general, non-Christians do not see biblical truths as truth. We believe biblical truth are universal. Non-Christians do not see biblical truths as universal.

If non-Christians do not accept our beliefs and our values, how are we supposed to influence them?

As in the example I gave above, my Protestant classmates sincerely believed I am going to hell because I don’t believe what they believe. I don’t believe I’m going to hell for that reason – or any other, for that matter.

Why would a homosexual listen to you or me when we tell them that their behavior is sinful? If our truth means nothing to someone else, how does it serve her or him?

I’m asking in all sincerity.

I think it’s great that you’re hanging in here with us and asking these questions.

I can personally testify that when I was active in the homosexual lifestyle, I would have adamantly refused any potential “cure” should one have been presented to me. You believe the oft repeated sentiment that “no one would choose to be gay” but I suggest that if you did some research (although there has not been much done in this area) on whether a homosexual would avail themselves of a “cure” you would be staggered by the response.

Non-Christians also believe homosexual behavior is sinful. Islam holds this belief as well as Judaism. In Buddhism, the Dalai Lama has this to say:

In a 1997 interview, the Dalai Lama (the leader of Tibetan Buddhism and a widely-respected spiritual figure) was asked about homosexuality. He did not offer any strong answer either way, but noted that all monks are expected to refrain from sex. For laypeople, he commented that the purpose of sex in general is for procreation, so homosexual acts do seem a bit unnatural.

religionfacts.com/homosexuality/buddhism.htm

If you ask an active homosexual who is immersed in this lifestyle if he believes what he is doing is sinful he will probably say no. But if you were to ask him what he thought the very first time he CHOSE to act on these feelings, or how he felt when the feelings first began to surface, you might have to wait awhile for his response. Anyone of us who is immersed in sin is likely to have knocked our conscience into a coma. Once you have pulled the layers of justification, denial and belligerence around you, it is hard for the tiny voice of conscience to be heard. It is especially difficult if you have surrounded yourself with folks who will gladly help you redefine your sin as your “right to love”.

The point of evangelization is not to CONVINCE. Only God is capable of conversion. The point of evangelization for the Catholic is to accept the obligation to spread the truth of the Gospel, to give every man a chance to hear God’s word, and to cooperate with God’s grace in affecting change in the hearts and minds of the lost sheep.

 

[agangbern]

The Church does not teach the homosexuality is a sin, but the more vocal Protestants do equate homosexuality with sin – as if homosexuality is a choice (who in their right mind would make that choice? I have to go with the medical/psychological model on this one)

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

When one who knows that his act is contrary to the natural law
insists in doing it or in supporting movements aimed at glorifying those practicing them, then he is in “rebellion” against God, the very author of the natural law. It is a sin to rebel against God!

 

[fix]

If you ask an active homosexual who is immersed in this lifestyle if he believes what he is doing is sinful he will probably say no. But if you were to ask him what he thought the very first time he CHOSE to act on these feelings, or how he felt when the feelings first began to surface, you might have to wait awhile for his response. Anyone of us who is immersed in sin is likely to have knocked our conscience into a coma. Once you have pulled the layers of justification, denial and belligerence around you, it is hard for the tiny voice of conscience to be heard. It is especially difficult if you have surrounded yourself with folks who will gladly help you redefine your sin as your “right to love”.

The point of evangelization is not to CONVINCE. Only God is capable of conversion. The point of evangelization for the Catholic is to accept the obligation to spread the truth of the Gospel, to give every man a chance to hear God’s word, and to cooperate with God’s grace in affecting change in the hearts and minds of the lost sheep.

This is beautifully said. Thank you.

 

[TMC]

I can personally testify that when I was active in the homosexual lifestyle, I would have adamantly refused any potential “cure” should one have been presented to me. You believe the oft repeated sentiment that “no one would choose to be gay” but I suggest that if you did some research (although there has not been much done in this area) on whether a homosexual would avail themselves of a “cure” you would be staggered by the response.

I agree that this is true, but this is such a complex and difficult question for homosexuals, as I am sure you know. Please understand that the comments I am about to make are not about you (who I do not know at all) and are not intended to challenge your beliefs or your choices.

I do not believe that homosexuality orU] homosexual acts are inherently evil or immoral. But if a homosexual would prefer to be heterosexual, and it is possible for him or her, then that is obviously their right to try. But for many, acknowledging that they would rather be hetero would be the same as saying they believe that they are flawed in their current state, or even that they are evil (or have evil tendencies) in their current state. To ask them to try to change is a very difficult and touchy thing. If they try and fail, what does that do their psyche? Having been convinced that what they have felt since puberty or before is evil, and then to fail to put that behind them can really do some damage. It takes a lot of care, and the caregivers should accept that it may not “work” and be prepared for that. So if homosexuality is not inherently evil or sinful, we are running a pretty big risk.

If you ask an active homosexual who is immersed in this lifestyle if he believes what he is doing is sinful he will probably say no. But if you were to ask him what he thought the very first time he CHOSE to act on these feelings, or how he felt when the feelings first began to surface, you might have to wait awhile for his response. Anyone of us who is immersed in sin is likely to have knocked our conscience into a coma. Once you have pulled the layers of justification, denial and belligerence around you, it is hard for the tiny voice of conscience to be heard. It is especially difficult if you have surrounded yourself with folks who will gladly help you redefine your sin as your “right to love”.

This is all true. But as has been discussed ad nauseum here, we have to be very careful when dealing with conscience. Conscience is the Word of God written on our hearts, and we believe that all men should recognize certain things by the reaction of their conscience. But the feelings that emanate from conscience can be deceptive in both directions. The emergence of heterosexual feelings are also often accompanied by feelings of guilt and confusion. Many heterosexuals feel a lot of guilt about their first (hetero) sexual encounter, especially since for most it is outside the bounds of marriage.

I am glad that you have found a path for yourself in your life and in the Church, and I hope it all works out for you. But I don’t think our choice would work for everyone (not saying you said it would).

 

[blessedtoo]

I agree that this is true, but this is such a complex and difficult question for homosexuals, as I am sure you know. Please understand that the comments I am about to make are not about you (who I do not know at all) and are not intended to challenge your beliefs or your choices.

To be honest, it is not the homosexual community that finds this “question” difficult - it is the heterosexual folks. For “gays” who are profoundly committed to their lifestyles and devoted to activism (a small minority), the only difficulty is in convincing everyone else that they have the “right to love”. If you consider that the largest possible percentage of homosexual Americans is, at the most, 8%, you must deduce that it is the heterosexuals who are driving this “movement”. Eight percent (more like 5%) of the population could not have made the strides in overturning traditional morals without the enthusiastic support of the “straights”.

Most of the folks I “ran” with were not especially politically active. They may have held personal opinions about gay marriage but were not interested in devoting time and energy to activism. Those who chose to immerse themselves in the homosexual lifestyle were unconcerned about “sin” or Catholic teaching. Many friends simply sought spiritual nourishment in faiths that claim “inclusiveness” as the cornerstone of their teaching.

Those who still have difficulty are the few who have not yet killed their consciences, who are struggling to understand the truth of God’s will. How unfortunate for them if they should seek that truth and receive some diluted version meant solely to make them “feel better” about sin.

I do not believe that homosexuality orU] homosexual acts are inherently evil or immoral.
Then I can see why you are struggling with this issue. Perhaps you should return to “square one” and allow God to help you understand.

But if a homosexual would prefer to be heterosexual, and it is possible for him or her, then that is obviously their right to try. But for many, acknowledging that they would rather be hetero would be the same as saying they believe that they are flawed in their current state, or even that they are evil (or have evil tendencies) in their current state. To ask them to try to change is a very difficult and touchy thing. If they try and fail, what does that do their psyche? Having been convinced that what they have felt since puberty or before is evil, and then to fail to put that behind them can really do some damage. It takes a lot of care, and the caregivers should accept that it may not “work” and be prepared for that. So if homosexuality is not inherently evil or sinful, we are running a pretty big risk.

The Church does not ask them to change. Let’s not get off track here. I simply used this example because another poster said “no one would choose to be gay”. A person with SSA does not have an obligation to become heterosexual. They only have the obligation to refrain from the behavior.

The emergence of heterosexual feelings are also often accompanied by feelings of guilt and confusion. Many heterosexuals feel a lot of guilt about their first (hetero) sexual encounter, especially since for most it is outside the bounds of marriage.

As they should, if they are engaging in the marital act outside of marriage. Perfectly appropriate guilt emerges from the conscience for a reason.

I am glad that you have found a path for yourself in your life and in the Church, and I hope it all works out for you. But I don’t think our choice would work for everyone (not saying you said it would).

“Work”? You mean my choice to live according to God’s will? IMO, that should work for everyone.

 

[fix]

That’s not necessarily propaganda. Like it or not, there are a lot of people who perceive Christians as hateful of homosexuals and others.

Yes, they view it that way because of the propaganda. Even quoting the CCC can be viewed as hateful by some.

as if homosexuality is a choice (who in their right mind would make that choice? I have to go with the medical/psychological model on this one)

Actions are choices. We all make bad choices for many reasons.

While we may understand the distinction between hating the sin and loving the sinner, people who already think of us as hateful aren’t going to.

That is why we need to be prudent and offer explanations.

My perception of Catholics is that we are loving and charitable. I’ll admit that my response to the topic of this thread has been strongly influenced by what seems to me, right or wrong, to be a contradiction to that perception in the statement that we are supposed to ‘hate’ anything. This thread may have caused you to think about the topic in “a deeper and richer way,” but my immediate response was revulsion.

Is your reponse based on reason and faith or on emotionalism and influence from secular sources?

 

[LittleDeb]

Is your response based on reason and faith or on emotionalism and influence from secular sources?

For me, this statement shows my struggle. Thanks for putting it so precisely, fix.

I am finding that I was loving my friends with SSA from an emotional POV. Oftentimes that emotional love translated to a “pity love.” On a reasonable level I knew there was nothing to be won from being in the lifestyle, but the secular ideas played on my emotions.

I long ago learned that emotions were not a good place to be to make reasonable decisions. This one will still take me awhile to overcome my emotional response.

 

[fix]

For me, this statement shows my struggle. Thanks for putting it so precisely, fix.

I am finding that I was loving my friends with SSA from an emotional POV. Oftentimes that emotional love translated to a “pity love.” On a reasonable level I knew there was nothing to be won from being in the lifestyle, but the secular ideas played on my emotions.

I long ago learned that emotions were not a good place to be to make reasonable decisions. This one will still take me awhile to overcome my emotional response.

Urban and blessedtoo have made me think more deeply about this issue. It really is more sophisticated and demanding then it appears from first glance at all these threads.

I appreciate your point about other influences. It is true for all of us. I am not discounting emotions, but I accept we need to put them in perspective.

The influence groups have, media, government, academics, gay rights, all play a big role in how we form our conscience whether we realize it or not. The OP presents a position that really makes a Catholic evaluate his/her committment to faith and call to ongoing conversion.

 

[neuro_nurse]

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

Very good! I cited the paragraphs in the Catechism that deal with homosexuality in a previous post on this thread.

The Sacred Scripture presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity; homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.

The Catechism goes on to say, “The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.” 2358

I’m sure you know what follows that sentence.

As I understand it, being a attracted to another person, whether that person is the same or different gender, is not a choice. I did not choose to be a heterosexual – I figured out I was attracted to girls long before I knew the first thing about sex. I did not choose to be attracted to my wife – she walked into the room and it was all over!

I choose to love my wife – and it really wasn’t an easy decision to make. The easiest thing for me to do would have been not to pursue her in marriage. Some days it’s easier to love my wife than others, but I still, consciously, or unconsciously, choose to love her.

Homosexuals, and heterosexuals for that matter, choose to engage in sexual acts. The Church teaches us, and as fix pointed out above, that for homosexuals and unmarried heterosexuals, those acts are sins.

I think it’s great that you’re hanging in here with us and asking these questions.

 

[goofyjim]

Yes, they view it that way because of the propaganda. Even quoting the CCC can be viewed as hateful by some.

Actions are choices. We all make bad choices for many reasons.

That is why we need to be prudent and offer explanations.

Is your reponse based on reason and faith or on emotionalism and influence from secular sources?

Actions are choices. Feelings and thoughts are not.

 

[rpp]

Actions are choices. Feelings and thoughts are not.

To a certain extent, I disagree. We have control over out feelings. We most certainly have control over what we think about.

For example, there is a very nice lady that I have known for the better part of a year. We are very good friends and get along better than quite well. There is a certain “attraction” between us. Unfortunately, I do not have my annulment. That means that I cannot have any type of relationship with a woman beyond simple friendship. (Why? Because in the eyes of the Church, I am still married and thus must behave that way.)

So I have made a conscious choice to follow Church teachings and keep my feelings under control. To do otherwise would be to engage in what Pope John Paul calls “sinful love” in his book (when still a Cardinal Wojtyla) Love and Responsibility.

(My friend, by the way, understand and appreciates the limitations that I have right now.)

How do I do this? It can simply be described as not letting my mind go there. Thus, to be honest, I actually do not know how I feel about this lady who is, at this particular time, my friend. I do not want to “investigate” those feeling any further.

Of course I am also praying for strength and asking the Blessed Virgin Mary, St. Joseph, my patron saint, my guardian angel, Pope John Paul II and my late father to intercede for me with the Lord to give me strength. So far, the Lord is coming through.

This is not so difficult as it sounds. Anyone, so inclined can do this. In fact, I suspect that many people do this. All it takes is a little self-discipline. And no, I am not some passionless empty shell of a man. I am, in fact, quite the opposite.

 

[goofyjim]

To a certain extent, I disagree. We have control over out feelings. We most certainly have control over what we think about.

For example, there is a very nice lady that I have known for the better part of a year. We are very good friends and get along better than quite well. There is a certain “attraction” between us. Unfortunately, I do not have my annulment. That means that I cannot have any type of relationship with a woman beyond simple friendship. (Why? Because in the eyes of the Church, I am still married and thus must behave that way.)

So I have made a conscious choice to follow Church teachings and keep my feelings under control. To do otherwise would be to engage in what Pope John Paul calls “sinful love” in his book (when still a Cardinal Wojtyla) Love and Responsibility.

(My friend, by the way, understand and appreciates the limitations that I have right now.)

How do I do this? It can simply be described as not letting my mind go there. Thus, to be honest, I actually do not know how I feel about this lady who is, at this particular time, my friend. I do not want to “investigate” those feeling any further.

Of course I am also praying for strength and asking the Blessed Virgin Mary, St. Joseph, my patron saint, my guardian angel, Pope John Paul II and my late father to intercede for me with the Lord to give me strength. So far, the Lord is coming through.

This is not so difficult as it sounds. Anyone, so inclined can do this. In fact, I suspect that many people do this. All it takes is a little self-discipline. And no, I am not some passionless empty shell of a man. I am, in fact, quite the opposite.

I am forbidden the sexual act only. I am not forbidden to feel intimate love for anyone. I don’t really care what anyone says anymore. Love is never sinful.

 

[agangbern]

As I understand it, being a attracted to another person, whether that person is the same or different gender, is not a choice.

I don’t know what you mean here by “attracted to another person”. Your meaning of it could very well determine whether attraction to another person, specially the same sex, is a choice or not. That topic may call for another thread.
Anyway, the topic of this thread is “Homosexual sex acts”. We are all in agreement that homosexual acts are contrary to the natural law. They violate the nuptial meaning of the body. Therefore, from that point alone, it is enough reason to hate homosexual acts. “Hate” in the concept of Christian hatred.

 

[agangbern]

I am forbidden the sexual act only. I am not forbidden to feel intimate love for anyone. I don’t really care what anyone says anymore. Love is never sinful.

What do you mean by “intimate love for anyone”? Intimate as in having sex with anyone? That would not be true love.

 

[goofyjim]

What do you mean by “intimate love for anyone”? Intimate as in having sex with anyone? That would not be true love.

That is your opinion. Love is love.

 

[estesbob]

I am forbidden the sexual act only. I am not forbidden to feel intimate love for anyone. I don’t really care what anyone says anymore. Love is never sinful.

And sin is never love.

 

[goofyjim]

And sin is never love.

As long as I haven’t committed the actual act I haven’t sinned. I am leaving these forums for one last time because I refuse to be brainwashed. I would rather hang out with sinners and be accused of being one than try to be something I am not. See you all in heaven someday.