Catholics only: Do you hate homosexual sex acts (as we are obliged to)?

[rboo124]

rboo124;3020437:

HOW DARE YOU! You have compared a race of people who were bought to this country in chains, sold at will, raped, murdered and beaten with no repurcsussions and who still suffer discrimination today to people defined only by the fact they enage in sodomy. Shame on you.

I’ll retreat and let you have this ‘win’…I’m not going to turn this into an argument with you. You have completely manipulated my words in an attempt to belittle me and I suggest you go back and re-read my posts…you have taken what I said completely out of context.

I am going to refrain from future discussions with you…the world is narrow minded and angry enough, I don’t seek more of it. It’s this type of Christian behavior that prevents people from converting…shame on YOU, Bob, truly! Why would somebody view your behavior as something that they would want from Christianity? How many others have you turned away with your anger and simpleton attitude?

 

[estesbob]

estesbob;3020456:

I’ll retreat and let you have this ‘win’…I’m not going to turn this into an argument with you. You have completely manipulated my words in an attempt to belittle me and I suggest you go back and re-read my posts…you have taken what I said completely out of context.

I am going to refrain from future discussions with you…the world is narrow minded and angry enough, I don’t seek more of it. It’s this type of Christian behavior that prevents people from converting…shame on YOU, Bob, truly! Why would somebody view your behavior as something that they would want from Christianity? How many others have you turned away with your anger and simpleton attitude?

Do you have any idea how outraged African Americans are when their struggle is compared to homosexuality? No one hard to manipulate your words. you are the one who made the comparison.

 

[estesbob]

Interesting points. Perhaps part of the problem is imprecise use of words? I mean we know homosexual acts are always wrong. Calling certain acts homosexual when they are not homosexual would seem to confuse the matter. In the same way it is confusing when the word contraception is misused or the word artificial is misused or misunderstood.

\

Homosexual behavior can only occur between members of the same sex. it is impossible for heterosexuals to engage in homosexual acts.

 

[fix]

I personally just find it judgemental for a bunch of heterosexuals to be concerning themselves with a sin that does not separate THEM from God.

Do you think the societal pressure to normalize what ought not be normalized is a pressing concern for people, in particular parents? Is it illegitimate to be concerned about this movement?

I’m more concerned with focussing on my own sins and character flaws…I’m not going to earn a place in Heaven worrying about how others are living their lives if I’ve got room to improve how I live my own.

Why does this apply to this issue? I mean take something like DWI. That is socially acceptable to be against. Why is DWI ok to call bad, but not impure sexual acts? Where is it stated we must be publicly against only socially acceptable proscriptions?

Judge not lest ye be judged…we all do it, it’s hard not to…but, it doesn’t make it right.

Great. So, I must not speak against those who drink and drive. Which other issues are off the table?

 

[rboo124]

Do you think the societal pressure to normalize what ought not be normalized is a pressing concern for people, in particular parents? Is it illegitimate to be concerned about this movement?

Absolutely. And I think the gay marriage laws are certainly open for protest. Our society has zigged and zagged over this topic, from beating deaths of kids for being homosexual, to allowing two men to marry eachother and adopt children. Yes, there’s a huge issue on both ends.

Why does this apply to this issue? I mean take something like DWI. That is socially acceptable to be against. Why is DWI ok to call bad, but not impure sexual acts? Where is it stated we must be publicly against only socially acceptable proscriptions?

Great. So, I must not speak against those who drink and drive. Which other issues are off the table?

Drunk driving is an act that not only takes the life of the person committing the sin, but also the lives of many, many innocent people. There are probably MANY better comparisons to use besides that.

Again, I’m repeating myself, but…I have no problem with this topic being discussed…and even if I did, so what? It would be rather arrogant of me. My initial post was meant towards society’s treatment of homosexuals. Of course I disagree with homosexuality…I don’t fully understand it, but I know what God has said regarding the topic and that’s good enough for me.

Every homosexual out there is aware of the Bible’s stance towards the act. Discussing the sin with a homosexual is not off limits…but, I think history has proven that perhaps the HOW it’s been approached hasn’t worked.

I think respsonses to my posts are a perfect comparison…somebody either misinterpreted or disagreed with what I posted, and BOOM…all of a sudden I’m a racist who’s opinion is reduced to nothing more than ‘nonsense’? LOL

Treating others with sarcasm and hatred is NOT going to get us very far. If this is how we are going to approach the homosexual community, we will fail. Hiding behind our ‘Christian Values’ will further hinder us from being of service because our ‘holier than thou’ attitudes will be surpassed only by our anger and intolerance.

BTW…I never said any topics were ‘off the table’, I simply shared my opinion on society’s intolerance of people that are ‘different’ than them. No offense was intended, but the fact that offense was so quickly assumed speaks volumes to me.

The fact of the matter is, it’s very apparent that perhaps the most accurate point I made was ‘we need to worry more about our sins than others’…I’m truly surprised at how flustered some responses to my posts have been…I must have really hit a nerve with some people to extract this type of response.

I mean, here we are discussing the sin of homosexuality when anger, intolerance and insults are being hurled out during…perhaps ths sin of homosexuality SHOULDN’T be our main concern, maybe there’s work that we need to do on ourselves before we worry about the work that needs to be done on others…?

If the shoe fits…wear it. And the shoe fits me, unfortunately, so I’ve got logs in my own eyes to remove first.

 

[fix]

Drunk driving is an act that not only takes the life of the person committing the sin, but also the lives of many, many innocent people. There are probably MANY better comparisons to use besides that.

And you think promoting the “gay” lifestyle only affects a limited group?

Every homosexual out there is aware of the Bible’s stance towards the act. Discussing the sin with a homosexual is not off limits…but, I think history has proven that perhaps the HOW it’s been approached hasn’t worked.

I do not know what you mean? This topic involves all people. It involves politicians and others, who may not have ssa, yet promote that these acts are acceptable.

Treating others with sarcasm and hatred is NOT going to get us very far.

I agree, but where is the hatred?

If this is how we are going to approach the homosexual community, we will fail. Hiding behind our ‘Christian Values’ will further hinder us from being of service because our ‘holier than thou’ attitudes will be surpassed only by our anger and intolerance.

Sorry, but your buzz words about hatred, intolerance, and such seem hollow to me.

BTW…I never said any topics were ‘off the table’, I simply shared my opinion on society’s intolerance of people that are ‘different’ than them. No offense was intended, but the fact that offense was so quickly assumed speaks volumes to me.

Again, I see the word intolerant is used. Why?

The fact of the matter is, it’s very apparent that perhaps the most accurate point I made was ‘we need to worry more about our sins than others’…I’m truly surprised at how flustered some responses to my posts have been…I must have really hit a nerve with some people to extract this type of response.

If the shoe fits…

You are making the case agaisnt your position. The “sins” of others affect all of us. You want to have discussion, but only on your terms.

 

[seekerz]

Back to the original posts, it’s interesting this topic should be brought up because just recently I was examining my own reaction of physical revulsion to an overt public display of affection between two homosexuals.

I do believe, like someone mentioned earlier, that society has swung between the extremes of shunning/discriminating against homosexuals to accepting their behavior as normal and even mandating that everyone accepts this as well.

By nature, I am one who always seeks to find a balance between extremes. The acts are sinful, the participants are humans whose inclinations, hearts and struggles God alone knows.

There is sometimes a fine line between refusing to associate with sinful behavior and refusing to show the love of Christ to other human beings.

Historically though, it is true that homosexuals have often been singled out for insult and abuse. So in a sense, their abusers have unwittingly set them up to be afforded special protection under the law.

I think the take-home message from what happened with gays is that every group of people should be treated with love, whether or not we approve of their lifestyle. Then there should be no need to make them specially protected entities under unnecessarily intrusive laws.

 

[Jestocost]

I suppose I do, but I see other sins as far worthier of my time and energy to try to correct, such as abortion. I really don’t see it as being much different than fornication. As sexual sins go I see adultery and pornography as causing much more pain and suffering to my fellow man. Even hetersexual fornication could be seen as worse since it is likely to lead to abortion, child abuse, abandonded/neglected children.

Also, there is no such thing as homosexual sex acts between a married couple. A married couple is a man and a woman. A homosexual act requires 2 men or 2 women.

 

[rboo124]

And you think promoting the “gay” lifestyle only affects a limited group?

I do not know what you mean? This topic involves all people. It involves politicians and others, who may not have ssa, yet promote that these acts are acceptable.

I agree, but where is the hatred?

Sorry, but your buzz words about hatred, intolerance, and such seem hollow to me.

Again, I see the word intolerant is used. Why?

You are making the case agaisnt your position. The “sins” of others affect all of us. You want to have discussion, but only on your terms.

No, I don’t think promoting the gay lifestyle ‘necessarily’ only affects a small group of people. If children are being allowed to be adopted by gay ‘married’ parents, that’s affecting MUCH more than a small group of people.

My ‘hatred and intolerant’ comparison was in no way meant towards you. For one, it’s meant towards how some in society treat sub-cultures that go against the grain…two, it’s meant towards another poster who had the audacity to label me a ‘racist’ and belittled my opinions to ‘nonsense’. I think I used a VERY accurate description. This is EXACTLY the same type of treatment that the ‘Beautiful People’ have displayed to others in society that alienates ‘us from them’…a good cause has no chance of success at the hands of a bad deed.

I certainly don’t want to have a discussion only on ‘my terms’…this is my opinion. It doesn’t mean I’m ‘right’. I’m not HERE because I think I’m right about everything, I’m here because I know I’m NOT right about everything and want to learn and grow. And I’m certainly not trying to say that I’m not just as guilty, if not more so, of being a hypocrite or judgemental.

I’m a struggling Christian…I was born Catholic, left the Church when my mom died when I was 15, returned two years ago at 35 when I began recovery from alcoholism and I’m not ‘growing’ as rapidly as I’d like to…

Unfortunately, I’m left here with a very bad taste in my mouth. I’m offended at being called a racist and having my opinions called ‘nonsense’. I came here to ‘learn’ from Christians with stronger faith and deeper education than myself and three posts into my stay I get smacked with what I would consider ‘less than Christian’ BS.

I think posting in this thread was a mistake…I either don’t understand this topic to the level of some of you, or truly don’t want to understand where some of you are coming from because if that’s what IT is, I don’t want it.

 

[rboo124]

Back to the original posts, it’s interesting this topic should be brought up because just recently I was examining my own reaction of physical revulsion to an overt public display of affection between two homosexuals.

I do believe, like someone mentioned earlier, that society has swung between the extremes of shunning/discriminating against homosexuals to accepting their behavior as normal and even mandating that everyone accepts this as well.

By nature, I am one who always seeks to find a balance between extremes. The acts are sinful, the participants are humans whose inclinations, hearts and struggles God alone knows.

There is sometimes a fine line between refusing to associate with sinful behavior and refusing to show the love of Christ to other human beings.

Historically though, it is true that homosexuals have often been singled out for insult and abuse. So in a sense, their abusers have unwittingly set them up to be afforded special protection under the law.

I think the take-home message from what happened with gays is that every group of people should be treated with love, whether or not we approve of their lifestyle. Then there should be no need to make them specially protected entities under unnecessarily intrusive laws.

I truly wish I had worded myself as eloquently and accurately as you just did.

This is exactly how I feel. I think my delivery was much rougher around the edges than the way you put it. Perhaps I tried to convey too much in too little…you did an excellent job getting your point across.

 

[fix]

No, I don’t think promoting the gay lifestyle ‘necessarily’ only affects a small group of people. If children are being allowed to be adopted by gay ‘married’ parents, that’s affecting MUCH more than a small group of people.

Right, that is why this topic stirs so much interest.

My ‘hatred and intolerant’ comparison was in no way meant towards you. For one, it’s meant towards how some in society treat sub-cultures that go against the grain…

See, right here I find it troubling. The subculture is not just “against the grain”, but is a much deeper problem

'm a struggling Christian…I was born Catholic, left the Church when my mom died when I was 15, returned two years ago at 35 when I began recovery from alcoholism and I’m not ‘growing’ as rapidly as I’d like to…

Welcome home. We each struggle. I know many will pray for you.

Unfortunately, I’m left here with a very bad taste in my mouth. I’m offended at being called a racist and having my opinions called ‘nonsense’. I came here to ‘learn’ from Christians with stronger faith and deeper education than myself and three posts into my stay I get smacked with what I would consider ‘less than Christian’ BS.

Do not lose heart. Tempers flare. We all are imperfect. Pray for each other.

I think posting in this thread was a mistake…I either don’t understand this topic to the level of some of you, or truly don’t want to understand where some of you are coming from because if that’s what IT is, I don’t want it.

Do not give up. You are welcome here.

 

[seekerz]

I truly wish I had worded myself as eloquently and accurately as you just did.

This is exactly how I feel. I think my delivery was much rougher around the edges than the way you put it. Perhaps I tried to convey too much in too little…you did an excellent job getting your point across.

Thank you. I feel strongly that without the right approach to the challenge of homosexuality in our day, Christians may soon lose to the ‘everything goes’ crowd.

 

[rboo124]

I suppose I do, but I see other sins as far worthier of my time and energy to try to correct, such as abortion.

I agree…I know gay people and I do tend to tread a bit lightly on the topic. The gay people I know are hard working, friendly people, mostly from religious backgrounds with their own difficulties in their sexual preference. I’ve been told by one gay guy that it would be much ‘easier’ for him to just be ‘straight’…so, I asked him ‘Well, why not attempt it?’ He laughed at me and told me it’s just as easy for me to ‘Try to be gay’.

Perhaps I’m too ‘easy going’ on the whole gay thing…I don’t know…I know alcoholics, drug addicts, cheaters, etc. that are all ‘straight’ and their sins disrupt the lives of many more innocent people than that of the gay people I know. Bills not being paid because of their habits, venereal diseases because of their cheating, neglect and abuse towards their kids, etc. I mean, these people are self destructing in their sins, and they’re taking down loved ones, insurance companies, places of employment, school systems, etc. with them. I ‘try’ to stay open minded because as soon as I point my finger, that person could point there finger right back at me.

But…when I watch the news and see gay people protesting because they can’t march in the St. Patrick’s Day Parade, or hear Rosie O’Donnel speaking about gay marriages, etc. I do get aggravated. Society shouldn’t ‘hate’ gay people, but certainly shouldn’t extend special priviledges, either. IMO

 

[pathia]

I see no way to logically hate the actions of a person without hating the person too. We are inherently the sum of our actions in this world, therefore hating the action includes hatred of the individual.

I don’t hate, period. I disagree, I get disgusted, I am concerned, I get worried, I can be horrified at people and things they do, but I never HATE. I never hate, and whenever I find myself thinking of hateful thoughts in any manner I stop, pause, reflect and calm myself down. Hate is an extremely powerful negative emotion, and we are flawed individuals therefore it is doomed to cause mistakes.

 

[estesbob]

I see no way to logically hate the actions of a person without hating the person too. We are inherently the sum of our actions in this world, therefore hating the action includes hatred of the individual.

Really-so if my child steals i cant hate the action without being guilty of hating my child? Or is this thread deterioating into a semantics argument?

.

 

[East_and_West]

“Homosexual acts” are an abomination. I think that people who feel that they are just “expressions of love” have never looked directly at, exactly, what they are. They just think that they are another form of sexual expression. However, the parts do not match, they are not supposed to, and, therefore, it is not uncommon for, in the desire for true sexual satisfaction, the perpetrators to sink deeper and deeper into depravity.

I cannot even begin to understand how any people with same-sex attraction to ever take that first step to homosexual acts. If I was afflicted with same-sex attraction I think I would become a hermit!

I used to live that life style. Let me tell you. Its easy to take the first step when you feel lonely and marginalized.

 

[estesbob]

I suppose I do, but I see other sins as far worthier of my time and energy to try to correct, such as abortion. I really don’t see it as being much different than fornication. As sexual sins go I see adultery and pornography as causing much more pain and suffering to my fellow man. Even hetersexual fornication could be seen as worse since it is likely to lead to abortion, child abuse, abandonded/neglected children.

None of which says that homosexual behavior should not be roundly ciriticized just as the other sins you mentioned. Again i will note that only in in Homosexual threads are we contantly bombarded with claims that other sins are worse. So what? If one ends up in hell it really doesnt matter what sin put them there.

Also, there is no such thing as homosexual sex acts between a married couple. A married couple is a man and a woman. A homosexual act requires 2 men or 2 women.

Agreed. It is imposible to commit homosexual acts in heterosexual sex.

 

[Mijoy2]

I think it has to be responded to in light of the theology. Probably best illustrated in JPII Theology of The Body.

Homosexual sex, is a misuse of a wonderful beautiful holy activity presented to us as a gift from our Creator. If one only considers the mechanics of homosexual behavior it may not seem evil in an of itself, but when expressed as an inappropriate way to cherish God’s gift to us, it becomes more apparent that it is wrong.

Think of it this way (although it may not be a very good analogy). You buy your wife a dozen roses as a gift. She decides they work fairly well as a rag to wash her car. You’d probably be a bit hurt.

 

[Pug]

The reason I ask is that many threads here have Catholics who understand very well that we are supposed to treat homosexuals with respect (a good thing!), but do not seem to grasp the seriousness of the danger to the homosexual of being sexually active.

I’m not sure what you mean by “hate” in this context. That is a strong emotion that takes a lot of effort and work to maintain. I don’t often feel that emotion. If you are asking if I feel that emotion in response to homosexual sex, then the answer is, I doubt it. The only times I’ve been confronted with a situation where the emotion could come up, it hasn’t. I can’t promise it won’t happen tomorrow, but it hasn’t happened so far. Usually I come up with a different emotion. Also, I am far more likely to concentrate on what the person needs than what they did. I don’t see the point in expending the energy required to sustain hate or to focus the bulk of my attention on an action that someone else did. I’d rather put my energy into doing whatever is required by the situation, be it admonishing, praying, offering them a way out of the relationship, encouraging them to do what they already know is right, being a shoulder to lean on, just listening, or whatever.

I do grasp that a voluntarily chosen homosexual sex act is serious.

 

[fix]

Please see this.

I would imagine it is controversial to many here.

The first-named species of hatred, in so far as it implies the reprobation of what is actually evil, is not a sin and may even represent a virtuous temper of soul. In other words, not only may I, but I even ought to, hate what is contrary to the moral law.

The rest of it is very different from what we normally read.