Catholics only: Do you hate homosexual sex acts (as we are obliged to)?

[agangbern]

Please see this.
The first-named species of hatred, in so far as it implies the reprobation of what is actually evil, is not a sin and may even represent a virtuous temper of soul. In other words, not only may I, but I even ought to, hate what is contrary to the moral law.

I would imagine it is controversial to many here.

The rest of it is very different from what we normally read.

According to the CCC:
*1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as “an utterance, a deed, or **a desire contrary to the eternal law.”**121

1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125*

All sins, therefore, should be hated by a hatred which is in the concept as quoted above by fix. There are no excuses. We don’t downplay the sin of “a desire contrary to the eternal law”, or of the homosexual acts themselves, by saying that there are a lot of other sins prevalent in society such as abortion, fornication, adultery, rape, etc. All those sins are also to be hated. Not one is better than the other. But you see, the other sinners do not seem to attempt to downplay or justify their sins. They are ashamed of their sins. That makes a lot of difference.

 

[Jestocost]

According to the CCC:
*1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as “an utterance, a deed, or **a desire contrary to the eternal law.”***121

1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125

All sins, therefore, should be hated by a hatred which is in the concept as quoted above by fix. There are no excuses. We don’t downplay the sin of “a desire contrary to the eternal law”, or of the homosexual acts themselves, by saying that there are a lot of other sins prevalent in society such as abortion, rape, etc. All those sins are also to be hated. Not one is better than the other. But you see, the other sinners do not seem to attempt to downplay or justify their sins. They are ashamed of their sins. That makes a lot of difference.

I know of plenty of fornicators, abortionists, even adulterers who downplay or justify their sins. Many of them demand that you accept their decision as well. That does make a difference, but it doesen’t distinguish them from homosexual acts.

 

[agangbern]

I know of plenty of fornicators, abortionists, even adulterers who downplay or justify their sins. Many of them demand that you accept their decision as well. That does make a difference, but it doesen’t distinguish them from homosexual acts.

Those who insist to downplay, justify or defend their sins, will surely feel in the end that they are being discriminated, unfairly treated, their rights are violated, etc. etc… Still, that would not make a sin lovable. Sin is still to be hated.

 

[Jestocost]

Those who insist to downplay, justify or defend their sins, will surely feel in the end that they are being discriminated, unfairly treated, their rights are violated, etc. etc… Still, that would not make a sin lovable. Sin is still to be hated.

I do not disagree with that.

 

[Kevin42]

My intellect understands that all sin is repugnant and disgusting, because it offends God who is perfect and worthy of all our love and obedience. Because of this, I hate sin.

Unfortunately my flesh does not always agree with my intellect, and must admit that in all honesty, my flesh does have an attachment to sin. I pray to God that Jesus will continue to purify me and loosen my flesh’s attachment to sin, so that I can truly and fully see it for what it is…an offense against God that is irreparable except through the sacrifice of Jesus.

 

[goofyjim]

I hate the acts but just have a severe disagreement that they are any worse than contraception and fornication or all the other mortal sins. And this judgement that they are hellbound is ridiculous. Ours is not to determine that. We used to say that about suicides but Church teaching has changed there. We are even beginning to reexamine Judas Iscariot, are we not?

 

[estesbob]

I hate the acts but just have a severe disagreement that they are any worse than contraception and fornication or all the other mortal sins. And this judgement that they are hellbound is ridiculous. Ours is not to determine that. We used to say that about suicides but Church teaching has changed there. We are even beginning to reexamine Judas Iscariot, are we not?

Then Church says that homosexual behavior is a mortal sin. What are we to make of that?

 

[seekerz]

Then Church says that homosexual behavior is a mortal sin. What are we to make of that?

That it is a mortal sin, nothing more or less. The decision as to whether someone goes to hell is God’s. If or when the sinner obtains absolution is not mine to know unless, maybe I’m his confessor. Therefore it stands to reason that I can’t know if any individual (homosexual or not) is hellbound.

 

[goofyjim]

Then Church says that homosexual behavior is a mortal sin. What are we to make of that?

Did I not already agree with that? But the Church also says that contraception and fornication are mortal sins. Last I checked there were not degrees of mortal sin as though one mortal sin was worse than another. You never seem to listen to what I post.

 

[goofyjim]

\

Homosexual behavior can only occur between members of the same sex. it is impossible for heterosexuals to engage in homosexual acts.

Then what exactly is oral and anal sex? Why is it okay between a married partners? I don’t think it should be. It is still sodomy.

 

[pathia]

Really-so if my child steals i cant hate the action without being guilty of hating my child? Or is this thread deteriorating into a semantics argument?

I think you can be angry at your child, but since we are talking about a child. Why would you ever hate anything a child does? Children are developmentally limited in moral understanding. It is your job to teach them that it is immoral and contrary to fairness to steal. ‘Hating’ what he or she did will not change the action in way shape or form. Hatred of any sort is not productive in raising a child.

 

[urban-hermit]

I think you can be angry at your child, but since we are talking about a child. Why would you ever hate anything a child does? Children are developmentally limited in moral understanding. It is your job to teach them that it is immoral and contrary to fairness to steal. ‘Hating’ what he or she did will not change the action in way shape or form. Hatred of any sort is not productive in raising a child.

Hi Pathia - let’s not get off track here. We’re not talking about raising children, we’re talking about hating an action whilst loving the actor.

Without going off topic i will still try to salvage the analogy for you: Imagine the mother of a serial murderer. The child, still her beloved child, has grown up and gone way wrong. If you try, can you see a relevant point there?

 

[Beautiful]

Please someone - tell me I’m not the only one.

Do you hate the sin of homosexual sex acts?

I can’t for the life of me - allow my mind to go there. What I mean is I can’t visualize what homosexuals might do in a bedroom. I have this mental block as far as I can see and I can’t get past it.
Anyway - if I can’t see it I can’t really say I hate it but I can say I don’t like anything I know that will go against God’s will.

 

[pathia]

Hi Pathia - let’s not get off track here. We’re not talking about raising children, we’re talking about hating an action whilst loving the actor.

Without going off topic i will still try to salvage the analogy for you: Imagine the mother of a serial murderer. The child, still her beloved child, has grown up and gone way wrong. If you try, can you see a relevant point there?

I was simply answering someone’s own analogy that was thrown at me.

However, no, I still don’t see the relevant point there. Anyone who is a serial killer is obviously mentally deranged to the point of questionable insanity. I’m not sure if I would say they deserve pity, but I don’t know how I could hate someone who was that way. They aren’t enough of a person to ‘hate’ them, serial killers have something very broken inside of them. I would only hope that they are kept alive long enough that maybe some resemblance of sanity can return, or be created so they may develop the chance for remorse for their actions.

If a serial murderer killed my child I would not hate either. I would want justice of course, but I would not hate. I would pray that they develop enough humanity to someday have remorse and apologize.

 

[mark_a]

I constantly hear from Christians that homosexuals are destroying the family when it is hedonistic heteros who have already accomplished that with ABC, adultery, divorce, pre-marital sex, &c, &c ad nauseum and when I bring this up the response is usually along the lines of, “Well, yeah, but homosexuality is unnatural” or “it cries out to Heaven” or some such. It’s like a little kid who gets caught and points out other kids who did worse things than he did.

Excellent points that should help keep holier-than-thou attitudes in check. Thanks.

 

[urban-hermit]

That it is a mortal sin, nothing more or less. The decision as to whether someone goes to hell is God’s. If or when the sinner obtains absolution is not mine to know unless, maybe I’m his confessor. Therefore it stands to reason that I can’t know if any individual (homosexual or not) is hellbound.

(phone rrrrrings…)

Hi seekerz. It’s Frankie (one of your gay friends) and I just want to know, if I keep having sex with Johnnie, my male lover, will I still go to heaven? I mean, you’re a knowledgeable Catholic, right? I’ll be ok, won’t i? I mean I believe in Jesus and all that… and i’m a loving, caring person who’s done many good things in my time. So I’ve got as much chance of going to heaven as anybody else, right?

Well, I … (blah-blah-blah) … (blah-blah-blah) … (blah-blah-blah) … and so, in conclusion:

… That it is a mortal sin, nothing more or less. The decision as to whether someone goes to hell is God’s. If or when the sinner obtains absolution is not mine to know unless, maybe I’m his confessor. Therefore it stands to reason that I can’t know if any individual (homosexual or not) is hellbound.

Oh, ok. You don’t know for sure. Well … what are my chances? I’ll at least make it to purgatory, right?

Well, I … (blah-blah-blah) … (blah-blah-blah) … (blah-blah-blah) … and so, in conclusion:

… That it is a mortal sin, nothing more or less. The decision as to whether someone goes to hell is God’s. If or when the sinner obtains absolution is not mine to know unless, maybe I’m his confessor. Therefore it stands to reason that I can’t know if any individual (homosexual or not) is hellbound.

Hmm. That doesn’t sound too reassuring. And you say it’s all JUST because i love having sex with Johnnie? You know how cute he is! I mean, seriously, what do you think of the fact that we are having sex and just lovin’ it ?

?
?
?

 

[urban-hermit]

I was simply answering someone’s own analogy that was thrown at me.

However, no, I still don’t see the relevant point there. Anyone who is a serial killer is obviously mentally deranged to the point of questionable insanity. I’m not sure if I would say they deserve pity, but I don’t know how I could hate someone who was that way. They aren’t enough of a person to ‘hate’ them, serial killers have something very broken inside of them. I would only hope that they are kept alive long enough that maybe some resemblance of sanity can return, or be created so they may develop the chance for remorse for their actions.

If a serial murderer killed my child I would not hate either. I would want justice of course, but I would not hate. I would pray that they develop enough humanity to someday have remorse and apologize.

Hi there Pathia - I guess I have to assume you’re trying, but …

Do you really not see the difference between my hating WHAT WAS DONE
… by my now adult child, the serial murderer, …
and my continuing to love WHO HE IS, even though he continues to kill (he hasn’t gotten caught yet and I don’t have the heart to turn him in - he’s got so much potential … If he could just kick this one bad habit… I just hate that he keeps killing…)

Does that help? … What if you substitute my hypothetical adult child’s attachment to murder with something more obviously self-destructive - say, anorexia nervosa.

Does that make any sense ? No ? … Oh well - i tried !

AGAIN THE POINT IS TO ILLUSTRATE THE CONCEPT OF HATING SOMETHING BAD (SIN) WHILST LOVING THE PERSON DOING THE BAD ACTION.

Please I hope and pray this doesn’t muddy the logical waters any further…

 

[kentuckyliz]

Well, I guess I don’t have any beef with what homosexuals do in bed if the Church has ruled that it is perfectly licit for married heterosexuals to do the same things. Seems rather arbitrary of a distinction really.

 

[LittleDeb]

(phone rrrrrings…)

Hi seekerz. It’s Frankie (one of your gay friends) and I just want to know, if I keep having sex with Johnnie, my male lover, will I still go to heaven? I mean, you’re a knowledgeable Catholic, right? I’ll be ok, won’t i? I mean I believe in Jesus and all that… and i’m a loving, caring person who’s done many good things in my time. So I’ve got as much chance of going to heaven as anybody else, right?

Well, I … (blah-blah-blah) … (blah-blah-blah) … (blah-blah-blah) … and so, in conclusion:

Oh, ok. You don’t know for sure. Well … what are my chances? I’ll at least make it to purgatory, right?

Well, I … (blah-blah-blah) … (blah-blah-blah) … (blah-blah-blah) … and so, in conclusion:

Hmm. That doesn’t sound too reassuring. And you say it’s all JUST because i love having sex with Johnnie? You know how cute he is! I mean, seriously, what do you think of the fact that we are having sex and just lovin’ it ?

?
?
?

Hi there Pathia - I guess I have to assume you’re trying, but …

Do you really not see the difference between my hating WHAT WAS DONE
… by my now adult child, the serial murderer, …
and my continuing to love WHO HE IS, even though he continues to kill (he hasn’t gotten caught yet and I don’t have the heart to turn him in - he’s got so much potential … If he could just kick this one bad habit… I just hate that he keeps killing…)

Does that help? … What if you substitute my hypothetical adult child’s attachment to murder with something more obviously self-destructive - say, anorexia nervosa.

Does that make any sense ? No ? … Oh well - i tried !

AGAIN THE POINT IS TO ILLUSTRATE THE CONCEPT OF HATING SOMETHING BAD (SIN) WHILST LOVING THE PERSON DOING THE BAD ACTION.

Please I hope and pray this doesn’t muddy the logical waters any further…

These two posts specifically apply to me and my struggle to separate the sin from the sinner.

You illustrate precisely why I know I probably come off to some of my friends as accepting of the acts as I said in my PP.

In discussing this topic and others with another devout Catholic we came up with the question, “When does a bad behavior become a character flaw?” In other words is a behavior ever indistinguishable from the person? From a Christian perspective the answer is no. The person is always separate from the sin. They are not defined by their sin. But from a secular perspective behavior is not separated from the person.

I am then addressing a person who has defined himself/herself by the homosexual behavior. If they don’t separate it how can I? To hate the act could result in hating the person.

 

[blessedtoo]

Then what exactly is oral and anal sex? Why is it okay between a married partners? I don’t think it should be. It is still sodomy.

Once again, I find myself on Jim’s side. And here we have the clear and pervasive confusion among Catholics clearly illustrated by this comment:

Well, I guess I don’t have any beef with what homosexuals do in bed if the Church has ruled that it is perfectly licit for married heterosexuals to do the same things. Seems rather arbitrary of a distinction really.

So, to estebob (love ya!) who says:

Agreed. It is imposible to commit homosexual acts in heterosexual sex.

and jencoast who agrees:

Also, there is no such thing as homosexual sex acts between a married couple. A married couple is a man and a woman. A homosexual act requires 2 men or 2 women.

I would say that the only acts which can be utilized in homosexual behavior would be classed under the label of sodomy. As defined until the 70’s, these acts referred to any non-intercourse activity between two people. It did not specify that the activity must occur between two people of the same gender. These acts, because they fly in the face of anatomical natural law, are the defining element of homosexual behavior. Two men or two women who may love eachother but do not engage in sodomy would not be engaging in homosexual behavior. To separate the acts themselves, or worse, allow them for one group and not another defies logic, reason, and moral tradition.