Catholics only: Do you hate homosexual sex acts (as we are obliged to)?

[catharina]

My patients don’t get to vote for which nurse cares for them.

Not only for the legal prohibition, but I would be violating nursing ethics if I attempted to “influence” a client with regards to her or his sexual orientation.

As a nurse, I enjoy the opportunities I have to attend to my clients’ spiritual needs however, the bedside, literally or figuratively, is not the place for unwelcome evangelism.

While that might sound like a cop-out to you, I not only run the risk of losing my job, my license, and getting sued, but I also run the risk of failing in my duties and responsibilities to my clients as they are defined in my profession.

I strongly believe that my values and beliefs as a Catholic are an important aspect of my nursing care, but my ethical, legal, and moral obligations require me to use my judgment in how I apply those values and beliefs to my practice.

I see I’ve ruffled a few feathers here. It’s a dialog, and the way I see it, a dialog without some degree of dissent isn’t much of a dialog. As I wrote above, my questions and my concerns have been sincere, and I appreciate the sincere efforts a couple of people have made to respond to them.

A couple of people have noted an aversion to the word ‘hate’ in the original post. I have to say that I find the combination of the words ‘hate’ and ‘homosexuality’ in the same sentence to have dangerous connotations – but that’s my opinion and you are free to disagree with me.

Have returned from a one-week sabbatical with family back East.
Now, I have two thoughts regarding this thread.

First, whenever I apply for a new position, I deliberately wear a crucifix. Not huge or gaudy but visible. Since I’m a retired social worker who now delights in being a nanny, I want any family that hopes to hire me to understand, with little room for confusion, the basis of my religious beliefs. This has worked fine for me with families who are Jewish Americans, Indian Sihks, non-believers, Protestants, Catholics and any mix thereof. It allows me to introduce myself without doing any verbal “preaching.” If I’m working with active toddlers, then I rarely wear the crucifix during the workdays (to spare the chain from breaking!).

Second, the discussion above about hating the sin, especially the quotes from the Catechism reminded me of the Psalm that the Church still prays: “You shall love justice and hate wickedness.” That seems to say it all.

PS to the poster who mentioned Drano. Makes a lot of sense!

 

[agangbern]

Originally Posted by agangbern View Post
What do you mean by “intimate love for anyone”? Intimate as in having sex with anyone? That would not be true love.

That is your opinion. Love is love.

Yes, love is love. But to a Christian, the meaning of love does not depend on whatever one feels right. More so, having sex with anyone whom one is attracted to is not love.It is written, “Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.” (1 Cor 13:6)

 

[agangbern]

As long as I haven’t committed the actual act I haven’t sinned. I am leaving these forums for one last time because I refuse to be brainwashed. I would rather hang out with sinners and be accused of being one than try to be something I am not. See you all in heaven someday.

Don’t be so sure that we would see each other in heaven someday. Christ came to save sinners, that is, by showing them the way to repentance and righteousness. He did not come and hang out with sinners to approve and consent to their sins.

 

[goofyjim]

Don’t be so sure that we would see each other in heaven someday. Christ came to save sinners, that is, by showing them the way to repentance and righteousness. He did not come and hang out with sinners to approve and consent to their sins.

I believe we will be quite surprised that the very ones we excluded from heaven will be the ones who make it there and the ones we though a sure bet don’t make it at all. Even the righteous aren’t guaranteed salvation.

 

[agangbern]

I believe we will be quite surprised that the very ones we excluded from heaven will be the ones who make it there and the ones we though a sure bet don’t make it at all. Even the righteous aren’t guaranteed salvation.

No man has a right to exclude anyone from heaven, except maybe the one to whom Jesus gave the keys to the Kingdom. That power is God’s prerogative alone. Not we can do that. This is non-issue at all.

The discussions in this thread does not in any way imply that one party is judging an individual. For all we know, we do not even truly know each other here. We are simply discussing “acts” in relation to what is proper to the eyes of God.

 

[goofyjim]

No man has a right to exclude anyone from heaven, except maybe the one to whom Jesus gave the keys to the Kingdom. That power is God’s prerogative alone. Not we can do that. This is non-issue at all.

The discussions in this thread does not in any way imply that one party is judging an individual. For all we know, we do not even truly know each other here. We are simply discussing “acts” in relation to what is proper to the eyes of God.

Correct. And a desire does not equal an act. I only sin when I actually commit the act.

 

[agangbern]

Correct. And a desire does not equal an act. I only sin when I actually commit the act.

And the topic in this thread is about “homosexual acts”. If to you desiring is not an act, so be it to you. Then exclude it from this thread.

 

[urban-hermit]

Hi there - the OP has resurfaced from the depths of overtime Hades - thanks everyone for covering for me while i was working too much!

Catching up on reading all the posts in this thread took a while - but it was worth it, they are great.

 

[urban-hermit]

My responses, my questions and my comments, have dealt very specifically with the practical applications of what we believe and how we live which is, I assume - I hope - the purpose of this thread.

Ah, so maybe you still have doubts and suspicions about the purpose of this thread?

I feel it has already been explained very well by others. Just to let you know I am a sort of ex-gay, in that I no longer identify myself using the label “gay”. Does that explain why I might start a thread such as this? Maybe anything else I say will just confirm for you that I am simply minding other people’s business, worried more about their sins than my own…

so let’s just assume that I am, for the sake of argument. You’re a faithful Catholic and I am just some disgruntled busy-body ex-gay. But I’m an observant disgruntled busy-body ex-gay … if you are interested in improving your spiritual life, then you might be able to do so by noting any accurate construtive criticism I have, right? Maybe I’m just a disgruntled busy-body ex-gay who’s never gonna stop pointing out other peoples’ sins and ignoring my own, but that’s my problem. You might as well profit from it.

Ok, so there’s this poison called mortal sin that, once a person gets hooked on it, means he’s finished when he dies. He will go to hell. Unless of course he repents before exiting stage left.

Why will he go to hell? Because he cannot go to heaven. Why not? Because in heaven God’s will is done perfectly at all times. But if a person has set their will against God’s, they would not even enjoy heaven! They would just make everybody else miserable up there. (Kind of like they do here … but i digress)

Now let’s pretend you have a patient who just LOVES havin’ gay sex! I mean it’s just fantastic - really works for him. He has found it’s all it’s cracked up to be - and MORE. He’s just so happy. And he can’t stop talking about how he and his lover just LUUUV gettin’ it on.

You treat him with respect and courtesy, as you should, and give him good medical care of course. Obviously you are at work and cannot stand at the foot of his bed and blurt out YOU-ARE-GOING-TO-HELL-IF-YOU-DON’T-. . . But sometimes simply withholding any sort of approval, which is within your rights to do, is more effective anyway. And did you know that when it comes to this poisonous immorality he’s living, that if you DO approve it for him, not only do you retard or perhaps obstruct his repentance, but you yourself can become complicit in his sin?

1868 **Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;

• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;

• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers

1869 Thus sin makes men accomplices of one another and causes concupiscence, violence, and injustice to reign among them. Sins give rise to social situations and institutions that are contrary to the divine goodness. “Structures of sin” are the expression and effect of personal sins. They lead their victims to do evil in their turn. In an analogous sense, they constitute a “social sin.”**

Kind of gives another perspective on the sins - especially the mortal sins - of others.

Right: this also applies to your fornicating heterosexual friends.

I think it’s awesome that you do for the poor and I encourage you and thank God for your work there. I give some money but I mostly concentrate on education and prayer on the moral issues, as I personally feel they are the worst problems in my local area and my country. Also I feel that sexual immorality and physical poverty and suffering are much more intertwined than most people think.

It is important that we start out from a perspective of being able to see sin for what it is: ugly and destructive, something - a THING, not a person - which should be hated because it is life-threatening. This mortally sinful THING, in this case homosexual sex acts, should not be dressed up in our minds as some alternate expression of love, because that is a lie and it confuses people, actually putting them in great danger, precisely because they cannot SEE the danger.

 

[neuro_nurse]

Have returned from a one-week sabbatical with family back East.
Now, I have two thoughts regarding this thread.

First, whenever I apply for a new position, I deliberately wear a crucifix. Not huge or gaudy but visible. Since I’m a retired social worker who now delights in being a nanny, I want any family that hopes to hire me to understand, with little room for confusion, the basis of my religious beliefs. This has worked fine for me with families who are Jewish Americans, Indian Sihks, non-believers, Protestants, Catholics and any mix thereof. It allows me to introduce myself without doing any verbal “preaching.” If I’m working with active toddlers, then I rarely wear the crucifix during the workdays (to spare the chain from breaking!).

Second, the discussion above about hating the sin, especially the quotes from the Catechism reminded me of the Psalm that the Church still prays: “You shall love justice and hate wickedness.” That seems to say it all.

PS to the poster who mentioned Drano. Makes a lot of sense!

Thanks for your response.

My grandmother was a social worker who told me that most of the people she saw had spiritual needs more than anything else. I’ve found in my nursing care that I can always find the time to pull up a chair and spend some time with a patient who reveals to me she or he has spiritual concerns - and that the time I spend with those patients is often the most rewarding time I’ll spend all week!

 

[neuro_nurse]

Don’t be so sure that we would see each other in heaven someday. Christ came to save sinners, that is, by showing them the way to repentance and righteousness. He did not come and hang out with sinners to approve and consent to their sins.

But Christ DID hang out with sinners and was severely criticized for it.

As I’ve written in a couple of posts, I have had a lot of exposure to conservative Protestant’s thinking about “avoiding all appearance of sin.” I’ve read some comments by Evangelical ministers who say that Christians should not have fellowship with Catholics (as if the two are mutually exclusive) because people might think that they approve of the Church’s teaching on salvation. (I have since read Robert Sungenis’ book “Not By Faith Alone” in which he specifically names at least one of those ministers and points out the he really doesn’t understand Catholic doctrine)

In short, I’m not going to avoid ‘hanging out’ with someone because I’m afraid that someone else might think I approve of that person’s beliefs or behavior – I’m married to a woman who is on the other end of the political spectrum from me! The truth is that despite the superficial differences, our values are based on our love for the Lord. We’ve both grown from acknowledging our differences and learning from each other.

Ah, so maybe you still have doubts and suspicions about the purpose of this thread?

Thank you very much for your reply.

Let’s say that in the interim I have become less suspicious of the motive behind creating this thread, but no less cautious about the implications of using ‘hate’ and ‘homosexual’ in the same sentence, regardless of the intention.

In the interim I discovered Ferdinand Mary’s “sticky” thread on “Church teaching of same sex issues” and found the following citation extremely valuable in how I think about this issue:

The virtue of chastity blossoms in friendship. It shows the disciple how to follow and imitate him who has chosen us as his friends, who has given himself totally to us and allows us to participate in his divine estate. Chastity is a promise of immortality. Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with one’s neighbor. Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion.

In a certain sense I can relate to some of the things you wrote in your last post. I’m a recovering alcoholic. I frequently care for people who are suffering from the effects of alcoholism – and believe me; it’s extremely difficult to care for someone – to love someone who has “done this to himself.” I understand my colleague’s revulsion of the problems alcoholics suffer – I DO NOT condone their judgmental attitudes towards these clients whose lives are literally in our hands.

It’s not easy to disclose my recovery to my colleagues (especially since I live in New Orleans where alcohol is a deeply engrained part of the culture); it’s a stigma. But my alcoholism not only allows me to relate to my clients with substance abuse issues in ways that most of my colleagues cannot, it allows me to show my colleagues my ability to care for and love our clients with substance abuse problems – to model what I believe is appropriate behavior.

So, as I understand the implications of the quotes cited by Ferdinand Mary, our response to our homosexual sisters and brothers should start with friendship. We can stand for what we believe and not back down, but we can, and as I understand the implications of Ferdinand’s citations, we should make sure our homosexual friends understand that while we believe that homosexual acts are sinful, it doesn’t affect the way we *feel *about them.

 

[catharina]

But Christ DID hang out with sinners and was severely criticized for it.

As I’ve written in a couple of posts, I have had a lot of exposure to conservative Protestant’s thinking about “avoiding all appearance of sin.” I’ve read some comments by Evangelical ministers who say that Christians should not have fellowship with Catholics (as if the two are mutually exclusive) because people might think that they approve of the Church’s teaching on salvation. (I have since read Robert Sungenis’ book “Not By Faith Alone” in which he specifically names at least one of those ministers and points out the he really doesn’t understand Catholic doctrine)

In short, I’m not going to avoid ‘hanging out’ with someone because I’m afraid that someone else might think I approve of that person’s beliefs or behavior – I’m married to a woman who is on the other end of the political spectrum from me! The truth is that despite the superficial differences, our values are based on our love for the Lord. We’ve both grown from acknowledging our differences and learning from each other.

Thank you very much for your reply.

Let’s say that in the interim I have become less suspicious of the motive behind creating this thread, but no less cautious about the implications of using ‘hate’ and ‘homosexual’ in the same sentence, regardless of the intention.

In the interim I discovered Ferdinand Mary’s “sticky” thread on “Church teaching of same sex issues” and found the following citation extremely valuable in how I think about this issue:

In a certain sense I can relate to some of the things you wrote in your last post. I’m a recovering alcoholic. I frequently care for people who are suffering from the effects of alcoholism – and believe me; it’s extremely difficult to care for someone – to love someone who has “done this to himself.” I understand my colleague’s revulsion of the problems alcoholics suffer – I DO NOT condone their judgmental attitudes towards these clients whose lives are literally in our hands.

It’s not easy to disclose my recovery to my colleagues (especially since I live in New Orleans where alcohol is a deeply engrained part of the culture); it’s a stigma. But my alcoholism not only allows me to relate to my clients with substance abuse issues in ways that most of my colleagues cannot, it allows me to show my colleagues my ability to care for and love our clients with substance abuse problems – to model what I believe is appropriate behavior.

So, as I understand the implications of the quotes cited by Ferdinand Mary, our response to our homosexual sisters and brothers should start with friendship. We can stand for what we believe and not back down, but we can, and as I understand the implications of Ferdinand’s citations, we should make sure our homosexual friends understand that while we believe that homosexual acts are sinful, it doesn’t affect the way we *feel *about them.

… except it does affect the way we “feel” about others and therein lies the conflict. Separating out a loving, God-based and chosen relationship from the factors introduced when one of the friends is living a gay lifstyle, one can indeed “feel” very sad about the turmoil and conflict in the life of gay friends. God knows I do. All loving relationships are based in the will, the free choice of being loving. Yet when a friend is gay, although one should love him/her and one can also like him/her, there is a conflict that is based in one’s great concern for his or her immortal soul.

It’s very tough.

 

[blessedtoo]

But Christ DID hang out with sinners and was severely criticized for it.

Can we PLEASE put this canard to rest? Christ did not “hang out” with sinners, as though he spent His Friday nights partying with the tax collectors, prostitutes and thieves. He “hung out” with His chosen 12 apostles, Mary Magadalene, Martha, etc., and MINISTERED to the sinners.

BTW: In the “sinners hanging with Christ” scenario, WE are the sinners, not the Savior. St. Paul tells us in I Corinthians:

But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person.

and

It is widely reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of a kind not found even among pagans–a man living with his father’s wife.
And you are inflated with pride. 3 Should you not rather have been sorrowful? The one who did this deed should be expelled from your midst.

 

[Delphinus85]

The reason I ask is that many threads here have Catholics who understand very well that we are supposed to treat homosexuals with respect (a good thing!), but do not seem to grasp the seriousness of the danger to the homosexual of being sexually active.

I post it here in Social Justice because I feel it speaks very much to the common good, however politically incorrect it may sound.

I have heard people say they have a problem with anybody who treats homosexual sex acts as more serious than other mortal sins, such as contraception or fornication. This makes no sense to me.

I have heard people say that homosexual sex acts are expressions of love, which also makes no sense to me.

Are the “peace and love” people missing the fact that the active homosexuals they love will basically rot in hell if they do not repent?

I answered “yes” but I wish to explain. I hate the act because it cheapens (and IMHO MOCKS) heterosexual sects done in marriage and love. I feel sorry for those caught in it, and I pray for their deliverance. I do not hate the person, and I hate homosexual acts just as much as heterosexual acts that do the same thing (demeans marital love)

 

[urban-hermit]

In a certain sense I can relate to some of the things you wrote in your last post. I’m a recovering alcoholic. I frequently care for people who are suffering from the effects of alcoholism – and believe me; it’s extremely difficult to care for someone – to love someone who has “done this to himself.” I understand my colleague’s revulsion of the problems alcoholics suffer – I DO NOT condone their judgmental attitudes towards these clients whose lives are literally in our hands.

Drunkenness is the practice of drinking until you are drunk. It is not the same thing as the person who does it. It is an unfortunate and self-destructive action that that PERSON, whom we are OBLIGED to LOVE, chooses to take.

Do you hate drunkenness? Yes or no.

 

[neuro_nurse]

Drunkenness is the practice of drinking until you are drunk. It is not the same thing as the person who does it. It is an unfortunate and self-destructive action that that PERSON, whom we are OBLIGED to LOVE, chooses to take.
Do you hate drunkenness? Yes or no.

I have to go with the medical model of alcoholism - it’s a disease for which there is a demonstrated biological basis. You can argue this point with me if you wish, but I have the medical literature on the subject at my fingertips, so unless you can come up with peer-reviewed empirical evidence to dispute that model, you’re not going to convince me otherwise.

I chose to start drinking - which, morality aside, is socially acceptable. After a period of time, my choice was limited to either drink or go into screaming delirium tremens - which isn’t much of a choice. If you ever want to get an idea of what hell is like, watch someone go through DTs.

Do I hate drunkenness? I hated it most when I was a drunk.

Can we PLEASE put this canard to rest? Christ did not “hang out” with sinners, as though he spent His Friday nights partying with the tax collectors, prostitutes and thieves. He “hung out” with His chosen 12 apostles, Mary Magadalene, Martha, etc., and MINISTERED to the sinners.

Are you implying that we are to avoid the company of sinners? Am I to avoid having sinners, specifically homosexuals, as friends? That makes it rather difficult to minister to them.

Besides, I’m a recovering alcoholic, I don’t ‘party’ any more.

 

[estesbob]

I have to go with the medical model of alcoholism - it’s a disease for which there is a demonstrated biological basis. You can argue this point with me if you wish, but I have the medical literature on the subject at my fingertips, so unless you can come up with peer-reviewed empirical evidence to dispute that model, you’re not going to convince me otherwise.

I.

I dont know if its a disease or not.I just know I cant drink. Well actually I can drink-its just when I do i cant stop.

Still "recovering: after 22 years

 

[estesbob]

Drunkenness is the practice of drinking until you are drunk. It is not the same thing as the person who does it. It is an unfortunate and self-destructive action that that PERSON, whom we are OBLIGED to LOVE, chooses to take.

Do you hate drunkenness? Yes or no.

I do. Having been a drunk for a long time I cant stand to be around drunks because it reminds me too much of myself.

 

[neuro_nurse]

I dont know if its a disease or not.I just know I cant drink. Well actually I can drink-its just when I do i cant stop.

Still "recovering: after 22 years

Congratulations! I’m coming up on 8 years.

 

[estesbob]

Congratulations! I’m coming up on 8 years.

Outstanding!