Catholics only: Do you hate homosexual sex acts (as we are obliged to)?

[estesbob]

Blessedtoo, I make a friendly challenge for you to find a hateful or anti-gay website that isn’t run by “Christians”. I’ve been looking, but haven’t found one yet. The “Christians”, on the other hand, must be going for a record.

One day till Christmas!!!

Peace and Love

And the point is?

 

[urban-hermit]

**Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

Ephesians 5**

 

[neuro_nurse]

You’re right, the papers aren’t full of them. It’s an untrue claim for anyone to make.

Conceded.

Hate crimes come in with numbers very close to fatalities from child abuse in the USA. I think the objection to the discussion of hate crimes is that a poster tied it to “so-called Christians” who must be commiting the crimes (!) when the poster’s own statistics show a nation with 30% non-Christians.

So, it must be all of those non-Christians who are abusing their children, right?

Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.

The surveys suggest that over the past decade, the pace of child-abuse allegations against American churches has averaged 70 a week.

Clayton, M. (April 5, 2002). Sex abuse spans spectrum of churches. Christian Science Monitor.

YES, this is EXACTLY what the catechism is telling us to do

Apparently you misunderstood my meaning of ‘minimizing violence.’ The definition of ‘minimize’ I intended was “to misestimate intentionally: play down, soft-pedal” (Merriam-Webster)

I truly think your problem is a deep prejudice against anybody who speaks a word against homosexuality.

I don’t see myself as having a problem – except that I seem to have wondered into an area where groupthink is the norm and dissent is not welcome.

I can’t toe your party line.

In this way you yourself are deeply concerned with the sins of others.

Actually, I believe I said much eariler on that I am much more concerned about *my own sins *than those of others.

Which is what this forum is all about.

Talking about other peoples’ sins?

You’re right - I am in the wrong place.

 

[Filius99993]

I think that people who feel that they are just “expressions of love” have never looked directly at, exactly, what they are.

That is sooooo true! There are too many people who look at homosexuality and say “Hey, it’s not that bad.” because they DON’T fully understand everything that’s going on behind it. We should pray for homosexuals and give them guidance.

 

[Kolbe300]

As you may have noticed from some of my other posts, I am a Catholic who has had to deal with homosexuality and am striving to live according to Catholic teaching and finding it truly the best thing that ever happened to me.!

Hello urban-hermit! Thank you for the warm welcome. As you probably have gatherd as well, I am Catholic and happen to be gay. It’s wonderful to hear you say that it’s the best thing that ever happened to you! I am learning so much in the walk and am very hopeful for the future.

Anyway, I was wondering if you could post some links to these sites you speak about, who are hateful and anti-gay. I am curious how many, if any, are run by Christians who are not heretics, i.e., that follow (or claim to follow) the Catholic faith as, for example, reflected in the documents posted at vatican.va

Well, to be honest, I would never post a link to a hateful, anti-gay website, simply out of fear that one may trip and actually land on that website. The point of my challenge (here you go estesbob) was to see if I’d get exactly the response that I did: You want me to show you a hateful website that is run by a truly Christian group.

I hope I can’t find one. The hateful websites are almost all run by those who preach a Christianity that I don’t believe to be Christian at all. The problem is that the non-Christian, looking in from the outside, does not realize that. Because of that sad fact, ALL Christians can end up looking like really horrible people, when they actually aren’t. For the person who embraces true Christianity, that can be painful.

The thread began with a simple (although we proved that wrong, didn’t we! ) question with regards to homosexuality. Now we’re chatting a bit about stereotypes. I’ve been gay (SSA, homosexual, whatever name you want to give it) my entire life. Do you know how many times I’ve read that because I’m gay I must be a pedophile, that I’m evil, that I’m an abomination to God, that I want to destroy marriage and the family, that I’m recruiting young people to join my “lifestyle”. (What life style would that be? Being celibate and going to church on Sundays?)

That was my point. My post was up for about 2 seconds before I got your response asking me to show a truly Christian website that was hateful. Stereotypes are irritating (understatement), as you all know. What I can do is show you a true Christian who isn’t a pedophile, isn’t evil, isn’t an abomination to God, doesn’t want to destroy marriage and family, but certainly would love to recruit young people to walk with Christ, and just happens to be gay. Unfortunately, and partly because of the countless hateful, anti-gay, “Christian” websites out there, many people wouldn’t believe me.

And, so no one gets mad for this not being on topic, I’ll go ahead and answer the OP. Yeah, I hate the sin because it’s so destructive. Not only do I not hate the sinner, I think nothing less of them because they are God’s. I can give them every Church teaching I know and I can preach the truth until I’m blue, but if that person walks away feeling unloved, I have FAILED.

Merry Christmas!!!

 

[catharina]

**Quote from catharina:
Hate crimes come in with numbers very close to fatalities from child abuse in the USA. I think the objection to the discussion of hate crimes is that a poster tied it to “so-called Christians” who must be commiting the crimes (!) when the poster’s own statistics show a nation with 30% non-Christians.

Quote from neuro nurse:
So, it must be all of those non-Christians who are abusing their children, right?**

You’ve missed my point, perhaps deliberately. To decide that a group is guilty of certain crimes, based on the notions of your own fantasy life, is absurd in either case.

Need you be reminded that it is the RC Church who preaches love for all, including actively gay persons, while still deploring sin?

What is the nature of your objection - that you would ever imagine that gay-baiters and gay-haters are Christian and that the RC Church applauds such hatred?

 

[dconstruct]

I am a cradle-catholic, born and raised.

I am not obliged to hate anything. All I am required to do is love God with all my heart, soul and mind and to love my neighbor as myself.

I find that when I fixate on loving God, it becomes rather impossible to hate anyone, for there are reflections of the divine in all of us, black, white, gay, straight, other…

Anyone who says that Jesus wants you to hate anything or anyone is a fool or a liar or both.

 

[neuro_nurse]

You’ve missed my point, perhaps deliberately. To decide that a group is guilty of certain crimes, based on the notions of your own fantasy life, is absurd in either case.

Did I? It sounded to me as if you were suggesting that it is the 30% of non-Christians who are committing hate crimes. But if Christians couldn’t possibly commit hate crimes, then how is it that there are so many of them abusing children?

Need you be reminded that it is the RC Church who preaches love for all, including actively gay persons, while still deploring sin?

 

[catharina]

Did I? It sounded to me as if you were suggesting that it is the 30% of non-Christians who are committing hate crimes. But if Christians couldn’t possibly commit hate crimes, then how is it that there are so many of them abusing children?

No, I don’t need to be reminded of what the Church teaches.

I have a copy of the Catechism, I went to Catholic School, and so I can read it and comprehend it.

Here’s the difference: The opinions expressed on this thread are not synonymous with the teachings of the Church. Yes, they are based on the Church’s teaching, but they are also colored by experiences and values that come from outside of the Church, as are mine. (save the “my values are better than your values”-line for someone who will believe it)

You are free to express your opinion, and I am free to disagree with you, but please do not have the audacity to suggest that I am a heretic or in error because I don’t agree with you. You may have convinced yourself and others around you that your dogma is equivalent to Catholic doctrine, but I am able to discern human opinions from the Word of God.

I agree with the teachings of the Church. I have a different perspective than you do, as I am entitled.

Never, at any point on this or any other thread, have I indicted the Church of any such thing!

Yes, I believe that there are people who call themselves Christians who are bigots. I believe they are capable of acts of violence. They are a minority of Christians, but they are out there. I’ve met some of them, I’ve read news items about homosexuals who were beaten by people claiming to be Christians, and I’ve cared for victims of gay-bashing.

And yes, they have websites that really aren’t at all hard to find.

Let me make this clear: criticizing members of the Church is not tantamount to criticizing the Church.

dconstruct: quit while you’re ahead!

I have no idea what is bothering you but it’s clear that something is. To put blame on other Christians for hate crimes against gays, without supportive references, is to look for trouble. You’re now saying people who “claim to be Christiian” and that’s a huge change in your self expression. Congratulations. My audacity? What audacity is that? Now you’ve amended your statement and I’m fine with it. As for “my values are better than yours.” What’s that? We’re strangers to one another. Pick a fight elsewhere if you need to pick a fight.

dconstruct: truly, we are to hate wickedness (sin) as in “love justice and hate wickedness.” Jesus presented no exception to that teaching.

 

[dconstruct]

If I decided to make a somantic argument against you, it would come off as lame and intellectually lazy…so…

I will simply say that if Christ represents the infinite capacity for compassion that we all believe God to be, then in uplifting that spirit of compassion we are called to comraderie and companionship with those who are fallen and “wicked.” This is why Jesus surrounded himself with whores and tax collectors.

Whatever your own “hateful” agenda may be, when you look at the example that Jesus set, his prescription would be clear. Again, in the end the only two commandments that we’ve gotten straight from the horses mouth were:

Love God with all of your being and love your neighbor as yourself.

I don’t see anything in that that I would interpret as an exhortation to hatred.

 

[Kolbe300]

The poster’s ‘blame factor’ is insupportable by any measure. To allege hate crimes as the preferred sin of Christians? Ludicrous…

Hi Catharina! I think to allege that hate crimes are the “preferred sin” of Christians may be ludicrous. I also think to believe that Christians never commit crimes of hate is far more ludicrous. Would you agree?

Peace to men of good will.

Amen to that!

 

[catharina]

On this eve of Christmas Eve, I wish peace for all of you - and certainly ask the same of you toward me. I know that my only true meaning and worth is my existence in relation to God, as His creature, His child and His servant.

I know that Jesus said we are to learn one thing from Him, in exactly these words. “Learn from Me for I am meek and humble of heart and you shall find rest for your soul.”

 

[blessedtoo]

I also think to believe that Christians never commit crimes of hate is far more ludicrous. Would you agree?

Let’s be specific here. We are Catholics. We belong to the one, true Church. We are directed by the authority of God and His reps here on earth to treat all of our brothers and sisters with dignity and respect. If an errant Christian from a non-Catholic denomination who follows some perverted personal creed to hate and persecute homosexuals operates a website, how on earth does that indict all Catholics, or even, for that matter, the Catholics here on this thread?

What is the point?

 

[dconstruct]

Let’s be specific here. We are Catholics. We belong to the one, true Church. We are directed by the authority of God and His reps here on earth to treat all of our brothers and sisters with dignity and respect. If an errant Christian from a non-Catholic denomination who follows some perverted personal creed to hate and persecute homosexuals operates a website, how on earth does that indict all Catholics, or even, for that matter, the Catholics here on this thread?

What is the point?

How indeed?

Well said blessedtoo!

 

[blessedtoo]

Hi everyone! I’ve been meandering through this thread and noticing all the typical stuff until we came to this point. I actually had to look around the room to see if maybe I’m on Candid Camera. Can you people honestly be serious about this? A Catholic actually posts a quote that says, “ONLY 1517 hate crimes were committed…” And the quote goes on to furthure minimize any wrong doing by stating that some of the crimes were, after all, just intimidation. Is not ONE hate crime for ANY reason too much? To make an argument that there aren’t as many brutal crimes against homosexuals as some will say is fine (I’ll be the first to admit that there are those who exagerate the fact), but to go to the extent of minimizing the crimes that DO occur!?

I did not make any attempt to minimize or trivialize the number of hate crimes or the hideous nature of such behavior. In fact, I made absolutely no value judgement at all. I was responding to a claim by neuro nurse that:

the papers and Internet are full of stories of homosexuals who were beaten senseless or murdered by good ‘Christian’ folks

and providing the facts rather than rhetoric.

Here’s the irony. It’s perfectly okay for posters to come to a Catholic forum and slander Christians with statements like the one above. It’s perfectly acceptable to make broad sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people (not even separating the Catholics from NC-Christians) based on statistics that don’t even come close to proving the assertion because this group is simply assumed to be hateful, bigoted, and intolerant. Tell me how this is any less prejudiced than the allegation by homosexuals that Christians stereotype them?

 

[catharina]

Let’s be specific here. We are Catholics. We belong to the one, true Church. We are directed by the authority of God and His reps here on earth to treat all of our brothers and sisters with dignity and respect. If an errant Christian from a non-Catholic denomination who follows some perverted personal creed to hate and persecute homosexuals operates a website, how on earth does that indict all Catholics, or even, for that matter, the Catholics here on this thread?

What is the point?

Thank you.

 

[blessedtoo]

Well, to be honest, I would never post a link to a hateful, anti-gay website, simply out of fear that one may trip and actually land on that website. The point of my challenge (here you go estesbob) was to see if I’d get exactly the response that I did: You want me to show you a hateful website that is run by a truly Christian group.

Since Urban beat me to the punch, I would ask you to please PM me these websites, for you did say:

The “Christians”, on the other hand, must be going for a record.

Since the “Christians” are so prolific with their hate, it should be fairly easy to rustle up a few links to PM for me. Thanks!

 

[blessedtoo]

What I can do is show you a true Christian who isn’t a pedophile, isn’t evil, isn’t an abomination to God, doesn’t want to destroy marriage and family, but certainly would love to recruit young people to walk with Christ, and just happens to be gay. Unfortunately, and partly because of the countless hateful, anti-gay, “Christian” websites out there, many people wouldn’t believe me.

Then it’s up to us (especially those of us who are blessed with this ministry) to get the word out. I am grateful you are here on CAF with us and thrilled that you have embraced Church teaching. It is a gift to be able to spread the word to our brothers and sisters who are still in darkness.

I would have to question the assertion that people will automatically assume all those awful things of you. How would they even know you are SSA?

 

[dconstruct]

The assertion that Christians would view someone who is gay as an evil, paedophiliac, abomination to God etc is a fair assertion when you consider that the predominate voice of Christianity in the US is that particularly vile strain of Calvinism that obsesses over biblical righteousness at the expense of compassion and love.

These voices of “Christianity” (Falwell, Baker, Swaggart etc) are so lost in doctrinal degeneracy that true Christians often have trouble recognizing the “Christ” in these people’s message at all. I believe the characterization that Pope Benedict XVI used for the ideas proclaimed by these “churches” included the phrase “grievious doctrinal error.”

I like that…it has a catchy ring to it…“grievious doctrinal error.” It could almost be the name of a punk rock band.

Maybe we don’t ask that they be rebaptized, but they are certainly not in communion with the Church of Rome. Those people, those preachers of hate, don’t represent me; quite the contrary. In my view, they are apostates and heretics and I generally treat the garbage that I hear spewing out of their mouths as such: garbage.

 

[Kolbe300]

Let’s be specific here. We are Catholics. We belong to the one, true Church. We are directed by the authority of God and His reps here on earth to treat all of our brothers and sisters with dignity and respect. If an errant Christian from a non-Catholic denomination who follows some perverted personal creed to hate and persecute homosexuals operates a website, how on earth does that indict all Catholics, or even, for that matter, the Catholics here on this thread??

What is the point?

Wow, this is eye opening. Even after posting the whole reason for my mentioning the so-called “Christain” websites, a few of you still jumped all over that assertion. Were you guys so offended by the stereotype of Christians being hateful that you missed some of my post? Here is what I said, again:

“The hateful websites are almost all run by those who preach a Christianity that I don’t believe to be Christian at all. The problem is that the non-Christian, looking in from the outside, does not realize that. Because of that sad fact, ALL Christians can end up looking like really horrible people, when they actually aren’t. For the person who embraces true Christianity, that can be painful.”

Blessedtoo, you ask how the actions of these hateful “Christians” indict all Catholics? They don’t, that’s the whole point. Your reaction to the assertion, even after I explained it, speaks volumes for how awful stereotypes are. And you know the truth! Imagine what all the non-Christians stumbling on those websites think.

I did not make any attempt to minimize or trivialize the number of hate crimes or the hideous nature of such behavior. In fact, I made absolutely no value judgement at all. ?

I apologize because I feel like I know you a little bit and I know you wouldn’t minimize hate crimes. That being said, the quote you used said “only 1517 crimes” and it mentioned that some of those crimes were “just intimidation.” I don’t think you’d minimize or trivialize the crimes. But any source that speaks of ONLY 1517 crimes and JUST intimidation, I’d have to question.

Here’s the irony. It’s perfectly okay for posters to come to a Catholic forum and slander Christians with statements like the one above. It’s perfectly acceptable to make broad sweeping generalizations about an entire group of people (not even separating the Catholics from NC-Christians) based on statistics that don’t even come close to proving the assertion because this group is simply assumed to be hateful, bigoted, and intolerant. Tell me how this is any less prejudiced than the allegation by homosexuals that Christians stereotype them

It is no less prejudice, they are equally shameful.

I would have to question the assertion that people will automatically assume all those awful things of you. How would they even know you are SSA?

Blessedtoo, I love you, but if you don’t think there are multitudes of people in this country that make the very assumptions I stated, I honestly don’t know where you’ve been hiding. The voice of Christianity in this country today is NOT the Catholic Church. The voice of Christianity today is the voice shouting sermons from your television set and the voice that slithers around the internet. They don’t have to know I’m gay for my ears to hear it and they don’t have to say it to my face for me to feel it. You were so quick to defend the Church when a stereotype was mentioned. But this stereotype, you aren’t even sure exists.

We have so much work to do in order to make the Catholic Church the voice of Christianity in this country. That voice has got to be ours. This Christmas, lets let em all hear us!! Merry Christmas Eve everybody!! I hope everyone gets a white Christmas, unless of course you hate snow!