Catholics only: Do you hate homosexual sex acts (as we are obliged to)?

[TMC]

OK, I will gingerly reenter this minefield. Here is my concern for the way many Christians treat homosexuals – I believe that the venom and opprobrium we heap on homosexuals drives them from the Church. All this talk of Christian correction and hating the sin but not the sinner is just so much claptrap. Homosexuals are being forced from the Church and Christianity by the lack of charity. Adulterers and fornicators are not treated like this. Catholics that use birth control are not derided like homosexuals are. Even Catholics that advocate using the death penalty to save on prison costs and Catholics that support torture are not treated the way homosexuals are treated. But homosexuals are free game.

Paul had a lot to say about driving people from Christ, about presuming that we are better Christians than someone else, and about using the law to make others feel less worthy. None of it was good. There is nothing Christian about making someone feel so bad about themselves that they cannot stand to be around the Church anymore. I know there will be a mighty chorus that this is not what is being done, but I have seen it happen over and over. We find their sin so objectionable that we cast them out, while somehow our owns sins do not merit public comment. I cannot understand how this attitude is even remotely Christian.

 

[rpp]

OK, I will gingerly reenter this minefield. Here is my concern for the way many Christians treat homosexuals – I believe that the venom and opprobrium we heap on homosexuals drives them from the Church. All this talk of Christian correction and hating the sin but not the sinner is just so much claptrap. Homosexuals are being forced from the Church and Christianity by the lack of charity. Adulterers and fornicators are not treated like this. Catholics that use birth control are not derided like homosexuals are. Even Catholics that advocate using the death penalty to save on prison costs and Catholics that support torture are not treated the way homosexuals are treated. But homosexuals are free game.

Paul had a lot to say about driving people from Christ, about presuming that we are better Christians than someone else, and about using the law to make others feel less worthy. None of it was good. There is nothing Christian about making someone feel so bad about themselves that they cannot stand to be around the Church anymore. I know there will be a mighty chorus that this is not what is being done, but I have seen it happen over and over. We find their sin so objectionable that we cast them out, while somehow our owns sins do not merit public comment. I cannot understand how this attitude is even remotely Christian.

Respectfully, I am afraid that I would have to disagree with you. Most of the other areas you described are fairly private. But **active **homosexuals (those not desiring chastity) want their sinful activities legitimized and no longer called sinful. There are other groups who also feel similarly disenfranchised by the Church, those who publicly support abortion, euthanasia, female priestesses and other false teachings.

It is the homosexual movement itself that will not separate the person from the activity. They do this by claiming that all people are sexual and sexual expression, in any and all forms which people consent to are fundamental human rights and cannot be separated from a person. Essentially, while claiming the Church is obsessed with sex, it is they who are unable to separate their sexual activity from their person.

It is likely that the Church could have done things better. Certainly the priest sex-abuse scandal has done great and lasting harm to the credibility of the Church. I think that the rampant heterodoxy in the USA combined with the misplaced charity which turns a blind eye to certain types of sin is not helpful either.

But I am sorry I just cannot agree with your characterizations. For example, you said adulterers. There are many who have left the Church because they are divorced and remarried (without an annulment) and are thus in a state of adultery. These people made choices. Co-habitating couples are not very likely to attend Mass either. Priests who fail to inform their congregations that artificial birth control is seriously sinful do a great harm to their parishioners. But still most of these are quiet and secret. When was the last time there was an Adulterer Pride Parade?

There are some real differences between homosexual sins and the others that you mentioned. The Church has never withdrawn the hand of forgiveness from those who wish to repent. But repentance requires a renunciation of sin, something that the homosexual movement has been, so far, unwilling to do.

 

[catharina]

Respectfully, I am afraid that I would have to disagree with you. Most of the other areas you described are fairly private. But **active **homosexuals (those not desiring chastity) want their sinful activities legitimized and no longer called sinful. There are other groups who also feel similarly disenfranchised by the Church, those who publicly support abortion, euthanasia, female priestesses and other false teachings.

It is the homosexual movement itself that will not separate the person from the activity. They do this by claiming that all people are sexual and sexual expression, in any and all forms which people consent to are fundamental human rights and cannot be separated from a person. Essentially, while claiming the Church is obsessed with sex, it is they who are unable to separate their sexual activity from their person.

It is likely that the Church could have done things better. Certainly the priest sex-abuse scandal has done great and lasting harm to the credibility of the Church. I think that the rampant heterodoxy in the USA combined with the misplaced charity which turns a blind eye to certain types of sin is not helpful either.

But I am sorry I just cannot agree with your characterizations. For example, you said adulterers. There are many who have left the Church because they are divorced and remarried (without an annulment) and are thus in a state of adultery. These people made choices. Co-habitating couples are not very likely to attend Mass either. Priests who fail to inform their congregations that artificial birth control is seriously sinful do a great harm to their parishioners. But still most of these are quiet and secret. When was the last time there was an Adulterer Pride Parade?

There are some real differences between homosexual sins and the others that you mentioned. The Church has never withdrawn the hand of forgiveness from those who wish to repent. But repentance requires a renunciation of sin, something that the homosexual movement has been, so far, unwilling to do.

Beautifully stated - that’s why I’ve quoted it in full.

 

[TMC]

Respectfully, I am afraid that I would have to disagree with you. Most of the other areas you described are fairly private. But **active **homosexuals (those not desiring chastity) want their sinful activities legitimized and no longer called sinful. There are other groups who also feel similarly disenfranchised by the Church, those who publicly support abortion, euthanasia, female priestesses and other false teachings.

It is the homosexual movement itself that will not separate the person from the activity. They do this by claiming that all people are sexual and sexual expression, in any and all forms which people consent to are fundamental human rights and cannot be separated from a person. Essentially, while claiming the Church is obsessed with sex, it is they who are unable to separate their sexual activity from their person.

It is likely that the Church could have done things better. Certainly the priest sex-abuse scandal has done great and lasting harm to the credibility of the Church. I think that the rampant heterodoxy in the USA combined with the misplaced charity which turns a blind eye to certain types of sin is not helpful either.

But I am sorry I just cannot agree with your characterizations. For example, you said adulterers. There are many who have left the Church because they are divorced and remarried (without an annulment) and are thus in a state of adultery. These people made choices. Co-habitating couples are not very likely to attend Mass either. Priests who fail to inform their congregations that artificial birth control is seriously sinful do a great harm to their parishioners. But still most of these are quiet and secret. When was the last time there was an Adulterer Pride Parade?

There are some real differences between homosexual sins and the others that you mentioned. The Church has never withdrawn the hand of forgiveness from those who wish to repent. But repentance requires a renunciation of sin, something that the homosexual movement has been, so far, unwilling to do.

We will just have to disagree here. Catholics who have been divorced and civilly remarried are pretty public. A parishoner in my parish had an unfortunately public divorce that featured many lurid tales about his adulterous behavior - he was embarrased but he met mostly with sympathy. Homosexuality is not any more public or scandalous than these things. Even birth control use, which is not really kept secret, is as obvious to an outside observer as homosexuality. Why is what those people do in their bedrooms more ‘private’ and what homosexuals do more public? Why should we assume that birth control users, adulterers, and fornicators are trying to reform themselves but homosexuals are not? Certainly there are some pretty extreme and ‘out there’ homosexuals on TV, but I don’t scandalize all young heterosexuals because Miss Spears can’t find her knickers. Homosexuals are treated differently. They are all castigated because some idiots thousands of miles away have a parade. Why do their actions rebound to all homosexuals but Ms. Spears actions do not effect all heterosexuals?

But this goes beyond the “your sex is more sinful than mine” problem. I would think that we would agree that sanctity of life issues are more important to the Church than homosexuality. But, other than abortion, Catholics that publically advocate against the Church’s teachings on life issues including the death penalty, torture, embryonic research, and euthanasia are not ranted against. Some believe those things quietly, but many (some in my parish) are quite public and vocal about it. I could go on and on. The only issue that draws the same emotional response as homosexuality is abortion. Only those two draw so much hate from Catholics that it is nearly impossible to stay in the Church. I keep hearing here that we have so many homosexual threads because the pro-gay folks start them, but look at the OP for this one. Many, if not most, of them are started by people who are basically saying “Hey, don’t you guys hate the gays just like me?” If we love these people and want to help them we have an odd way of showing it.

 

[catharina]

I looked at the OP and find nothing that indicates or advocates hatred of anyone. The hope that friends and relatives who are mired in sinful lifestyles will turn to repentance because they, like all, have only a number of days alloted to them in this life is stating a clear call to virtuous living that is made out of love.

As rpp said: “It is the homosexual movement itself that will not separate the person from the activity. They do this by claiming that all people are sexual and sexual expression, in any and all forms which people consent to are fundamental human rights and cannot be separated from a person. Essentially, while claiming the Church is obsessed with sex, it is they who are unable to separate their sexual activity from their person.”

 

[rpp]

But this goes beyond the “your sex is more sinful than mine” problem. I would think that we would agree that sanctity of life issues are more important to the Church than homosexuality. But, other than abortion, Catholics that publically advocate against the Church’s teachings on life issues including the death penalty, torture, embryonic research, and euthanasia are not ranted against. Some believe those things quietly, but many (some in my parish) are quite public and vocal about it. I could go on and on. The only issue that draws the same emotional response as homosexuality is abortion. Only those two draw so much hate from Catholics that it is nearly impossible to stay in the Church. I keep hearing here that we have so many homosexual threads because the pro-gay folks start them, but look at the OP for this one. Many, if not most, of them are started by people who are basically saying “Hey, don’t you guys hate the gays just like me?” If we love these people and want to help them we have an odd way of showing it.

This is a serious mis-characterization of many things, including Church teachings and facts.

The Church does not teach that the death penalty is wrong.

There have been several statement from Rome condemning torture. Catholics are some of the harshest critics of torture, but such attitudes cross religious boundaries.

If you live in Oregon, where doctor-assisted suicide was made legal, you would not have said what you did about no one protesting euthanasia.

Embryonic stem cell research, since it requires abortion is also an area that horrifies Catholics and other anti-abortionists. Weren’t you looking at the news when Missouri and California had elections recently on supporting these issues?

And who in the world talks about using birth control? Or are you simply assuming that someone who does not have 6 children is using it. What about my sister-in-law who has only 1/4 of one ovary left. She was only ever able to have 2 children and she has never even seen a contraceptive device. Or another friend whose first two pregnancies were ectopic, rendering her permanently unable to conceive. I have a coworker who lost three children many years ago when there was a fire at a day care facility. Be careful about the conclusions you draw just by looking at people

As for other dissenter not being railed against, well, I suppose you do not look at the sources I look at. I see it frequently.

But I will concede that homosexuality and abortion do draw a good deal of attention. There are three primary reasons for this.

First, unlike all the other sins you pointed out, these two are among the very few that the Church teaches “cry to heaven for justice”.

Second, there are powerful political movements which promote these behaviors. These promoters falsely, just as you have done, accuse Catholics, among others, of being hateful simply because they disagree.

Finally, within most people, there is a powerful and visceral disgust for homosexual activity just as there is, among normal people, a powerful desire to protect children from harm. While under conscious control, these are based on instinctive responses.

When you accuse the Church of hate, you are not accurately describing the Church’s attitude.

 

[drpmjhess]

I keep hearing here that we have so many homosexual threads because the pro-gay folks start them, but look at the OP for this one. Many, if not most, of them are started by people who are basically saying “Hey, don’t you guys hate the gays just like me?” If we love these people and want to help them we have an odd way of showing it.

I agree. In our parish it’s not an issue, even for all the priests. Our classical choir director is gay, and his partner is one of my fellow baritones. Many of my gay friends work in teaching, the arts, or the medical profession. If hell is full of gay people, it is sure to be an experience rich in theater, music, kindness, and humanitarian enterprise. If heaven is full of gay bashers, there will be relatively little of the above.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

I agree. In our parish it’s not an issue, even for all the priests. Our classical choir director is gay, and his partner is one of my fellow baritones. Many of my gay friends work in teaching, the arts, or the medical profession. If hell is full of gay people, it is sure to be an experience rich in theater, music, kindness, and humanitarian enterprise. If heaven is full of gay bashers, there will be relatively little of the above.

So your parish Priest has no issues with these two gay men being out (so to speak) and going against what the Church teaches? This is a Catholic Parish, right?

And no one said that gays dont contribute to society in their 9-5 jobs.

 

[catharina]

I agree. In our parish it’s not an issue, even for all the priests. Our classical choir director is gay, and his partner is one of my fellow baritones. Many of my gay friends work in teaching, the arts, or the medical profession. If hell is full of gay people, it is sure to be an experience rich in theater, music, kindness, and humanitarian enterprise. If heaven is full of gay bashers, there will be relatively little of the above.

If you’re saying that leaders in your parish (in the music ministry, for example) are living openly as a sexually active “married homosexual” couple, then I must suggest that the priests responsible for the ministry of your parish are living as renegade priests. Over time, this sort of situation tends to attract public attention and finds correction through diocesan actions.

 

[drpmjhess]

So your parish Priest has no issues with these two gay men being out (so to speak) and going against what the Church teaches? This is a Catholic Parish, right? And no one said that gays dont contribute to society in their 9-5 jobs.

Well, I haven’t listened to the confessional tape recordings, so I can’t say for certain what the priests think, but I suspect they leave it up to the conscience of the individuals involved. And when you say “out” I’m not sure what you mean. My friends flaunt nothing; they are simply two honest, talented, hard-working, hearts-of-gold Catholic musicians who love each other. They don’t advertise whether they are sexually active or not, and no one seems interested in knowing (public knowledge of other couples’ sexual activity is not required in our parish, even of heterosexuals). And our diocese no longer requires burning at the stake or even public censure of gay people, so I’ve seen no reports on its incidence. Thankfully, it’s simply a non-issue in the parish, and the parish and its liturgical life are the richer for it.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Well, I haven’t listened to the confessional tape recordings, so I can’t say for certain what the priests think then why did you say that they have no problem with it??, but I suspect they leave it up to the conscience of the individuals involved. And when you say “out” I’m not sure what you mean. My friends flaunt nothing; they are simply two honest, talented, hard-working, hearts-of-gold Catholic musicians who love each other. They don’t advertise whether they are sexually active or not, and no one seems interested in knowing (public knowledge of other couples’ sexual activity is not required in our parish, even of heterosexuals). And our diocese no longer requires burning at the stake or even public censure of gay people, so I’ve seen no reports on its incidence. Thankfully, it’s simply a non-issue in the parish, and the parish and its liturgical life are the richer for it.

Are they living openly as a “gay married couple”??

 

[drpmjhess]

If you’re saying that leaders in your parish (in the music ministry, for example) are living openly as a sexually active “married homosexual” couple, then I must suggest that the priests responsible for the ministry of your parish are living as renegade priests. Over time, this sort of situation tends to attract public attention and finds correction through diocesan actions.

Your prurient interest in the private life of this couple is fascinating! I suggested nothing of the sort.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

I agree. In our parish it’s not an issue, even for all the priests. Our classical choir director is gay, and his partner is one of my fellow baritones. Many of my gay friends work in teaching, the arts, or the medical profession. If hell is full of gay people, it is sure to be an experience rich in theater, music, kindness, and humanitarian enterprise. If heaven is full of gay bashers, there will be relatively little of the above.

Your prurient interest in the private life of this couple is fascinating! I suggested nothing of the sort.

I think you better check what you wrote.

 

[drpmjhess]

I think you better check what you wrote.

Your point being?

 

[catharina]

Your prurient interest in the private life of this couple is fascinating! I suggested nothing of the sort.

Insult me as you feel you need to do so, but you certainly suggested the sexual intimacy of the two when you labelled them as partners. If you didn’t mean that, then say so.

I can promise you that I am not facinating at all.

 

[drpmjhess]

you certainly suggested the sexual intimacy of the two when you labelled them as partners.

I don’t know how you define partner; I know lots of married heterosexual couples who don’t have sex. I think of mutual love as defining a partnership, not sex. In any case, I’ve never inquired into the sexual intimacy of my friends, as that doesn’t interest me. What interests me is our choir program and planning beautiful liturgies for the parish.

 

[catharina]

I don’t know how you define partner; I know lots of married heterosexual couples who don’t have sex. I think of mutual love as defining a partnership, not sex. In any case, I’ve never inquired into the sexual intimacy of my friends, as that doesn’t interest me. What interests me is our choir program and planning beautiful liturgies for the parish.

As it also seems to interest you that he has partnered: “Our classical choir director is gay, and his partner is one of my fellow baritones.” If you implied something but didn’t intend to do so, then you could have stated it more clearly. It’s a fantasy to attempt to undo what you said by blaming those who can’t understand what you “meant” to say.

 

[estesbob]

I don’t know how you define partner; I know lots of married heterosexual couples who don’t have sex. I think of mutual love as defining a partnership, not sex. In any case, I’ve never inquired into the sexual intimacy of my friends, as that doesn’t interest me. What interests me is our choir program and planning beautiful liturgies for the parish.

Do you really have conversations. With married people about their sex lives??? Funny it never comes up in my circles of friends. In fact I can’t imagine ANY mature adult discussing it with friends

 

[blessedtoo]

We will just have to disagree here. Catholics who have been divorced and civilly remarried are pretty public. A parishoner in my parish had an unfortunately public divorce that featured many lurid tales about his adulterous behavior - he was embarrased but he met mostly with sympathy.

So your one encounter with a divorced parishioner and the alleged acceptance of his marital status is proof that Catholics do not express objections? Have you ever searched through this forum and read some of the threads on marriage, divorce, annulment, and remarriage? Some of the most agressive language happens on these topics.

Homosexuality is not any more public or scandalous than these things. Even birth control use, which is not really kept secret, is as obvious to an outside observer as homosexuality.

What an arrogant statement. TMC, I believe you remain obstinantly blind to the facts. First, no one should ever assume of another their sexual orientation or their birth control practices. If I were to rely on my faulty human perceptions, than at least 50% of the adult altar servers, readers, choir directors AND members might APPEAR to be homosexual. By your logic, at least 80% of the Catholic faithful would APPEAR to be practicing some sort of ABC. I would NEVER assume such things based on my perception. Since I have never encountered a fellow parishioner who felt compelled to “come out” as an ABC user, I don’t wonder about it, think about it, or judge it. However, when a fellow Catholic decides to “come out” as gay, they are clearly making a public statement for which some response is needed. We are subjected to the Rainbow Sash folks and the Dignity folks who exist on the periphary of our own Church. From the outside we have the loons in San Francisco and back in the 80’s, the folks from Act-Up, who were not content to just protest Catholic teaching. They had to bring it into the Church and desecrate the Eucharist. Tell me, when was the last time such a thing occurred over the issues of birth control or divorce?

Why is what those people do in their bedrooms more ‘private’ and what homosexuals do more public?

See above.

Why should we assume that birth control users, adulterers, and fornicators are trying to reform themselves but homosexuals are not?

We should not assume anything of anyone. If an active homosexual is seeking God through the Catholic Church and indicating a willingness to follow God’s will, he should be offered all the love, support and compassion he can stand to help him be successful. In the over two years I’ve been on this forum there has only been one situation like this, where someone stuck in the lifestyle, between the darkness and the light, was seeking truth. He did eventually end up leaving the lifestyle and those of us who were privilidged to talk to him watched the miracle unfold.

Certainly there are some pretty extreme and ‘out there’ homosexuals on TV, but I don’t scandalize all young heterosexuals because Miss Spears can’t find her knickers. Homosexuals are treated differently.

Christians universally are scandalized by the immoral behavior of our youth. If you don’t see this, you must be reading different opinions or watching different TV programs. Ms. Spears and the “knicker” scandal drew news coverage for nearly a week and even the liberal media piled on about the downfall of morals among the young.

continued…

 

[blessedtoo]

They are all castigated because some idiots thousands of miles away have a parade. Why do their actions rebound to all homosexuals but Ms. Spears actions do not effect all heterosexuals?

How about parades in every city across this country? How about the activist groups attempting to redefine marriage in our time? How about the dissenters in our own Church (clergy included) who water down the teaching so as to be almost indefinable? How about the scandalous material being taught to 2nd graders in our public schools? The changes to textbooks to fulfill some absurd notion of sexual diversity? Are you for real??
Ms. Spears, in the eyes of most people, is nothing but a celebrity train wreck. She has no political power and while dangerous as an influence to young girls, can still be censored by savvy parents. How do parents fight back against the powerful political machinery that forces children to read that “Heather has Two Mommies”?

Only those two draw so much hate from Catholics that it is nearly impossible to stay in the Church.

Shame on you. I keep checking your profile because I can’t believe a Catholic would continue to perpetuate this lie. I see a pattern in your posts. You tend to assume things. I guess you assume that a Catholic who speaks the truth must hate the homosexual. And you continue to spread that poisonous canard freely.

I keep hearing here that we have so many homosexual threads because the pro-gay folks start them, but look at the OP for this one. Many, if not most, of them are started by people who are basically saying “Hey, don’t you guys hate the gays just like me?” If we love these people and want to help them we have an odd way of showing it.

That OP is a dear friend of mine. If that OP “hated the gays”, then I guess he would have to hate himself and hate me as well.

Because you are a Catholic, your posts depress me even more than the belligerent gay apologists who drop by here on occasion to provoke and malign.