Catholics! Please get in here!

[Catholic_Bro]

I need someone to correct me and straighten me out if I am misunderstanding any of this.

First of all, I have been raised Catholic. I’m actually getting married in February next year in the Catholic church.

Now, I have done a lot of research and read the Bible. There are quite a bit of concerns I have with the Catholic church. Many have to do with the Apocrypha, the Dogma, Archangels, the Trinity, Praying to Saints.

However, for the purpose of being simple, I only will bring forth two concerns that I have. In my opinion, the TRUE church of God should be perfect and consistent with the Bible. Therefore, if these two issues contradict the Bible, then surely I should have my answer about whether or not to follow the Catholic church or not. I will site the verse where it says it is forbidden.

I would like for a fellow Catholic to please tell me why the Catholic church still does these two things and please tell me if I’m misunderstanding this or not.

1. Statues in the Catholic church are explicitly forbidden by the teachings in the Bible, yet Catholic churches and followers still have tons of statues in the church and in homes. Exodus 20:4-5 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,
2. Praying the rosary is a perfect example of praying in vain. This is said to be forbidden. Jesus tells us not to pray in vain. Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

 

[Cat_Herder]

You need to go with what the Bible actually says, not with what people say it says.

1. Statues in the Catholic church are explicitly forbidden by the teachings in the Bible, yet Catholic churches and followers still have tons of statues in the church and in homes. Exodus 20:4-5 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,

Start with The Basics then read The Communion of Saints: Prayer and Veneration

1. Praying the rosary is a perfect example of praying in vain. This is said to be forbidden. Jesus tells us not to pray in vain. Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

If all repetitious prayer is vain then rip Psalm 136 out of your Bible, then storm into your local synagogue and tell the Rabbi to stop chanting the Psalms over and over again. NOT.

 

[zz912]

I’m smelling a troll. Too many clues to ignore.

“Roman” Catholic, apocrypha, knowing every specific Bible verse he thinks refutes Catholic doctrine or practices.

Before I respond I would need some more convincing this is a true Catholic with questions. I think it’s a protestant under false pretenses.

 

[Cat_Herder]

This is why I put the quick answers on my profile. If he is interested in knowing the answers he can click the links and learn.

 

[Debra_C]

Point 1: Worship of graven images are forbidden. Honoring Jesus, the Saints, and the Angels and reminding ourselves of the holiness to which we are called and the wonderful examples we have to help us is not forbidden. If I were to worship a golden calf or even a crucifix as if it were God Himself, there would be a problem. But thankfully, I am an intelligent person and am fully aware that the crucifix is NOT Jesus, but only representative of Him. Therefore I do not worship the statue, but the Lord alone. Meanwhile, the crucifix is a good reminder of Christ’s sacrifice for my salvation and WHY He is so worthy of worship to begin with.

Point 2: You claim the Rosary is praying in vain. The word vain means (according to dictionary.com)) 1. Having or showing an excessively high opinion of one’s appearance, abilities, or worth, or 2. Producing no result; useless or 3. Having no meaning or likelihood of fulfillment. So, what does it mean to pray in vain? If it is merely to repeat the same words then virtually every Christian from the beginning of the Church is in trouble because almost ALL of us have memorized and at least occasionally recited as a prayer the Lord’s Prayer, which Jesus taught the Twelve in the Book of Matthew. But wait a minute–He instructed us to imitate that prayer, didn’t He? Perhaps He did not mean for us to do so only by exact recitation, but He certainly didn’t forbid it. Indeed, He put it forward as a perfect model for prayer. It includes prayer of praise and adoration, Prayer of petition, Intercession, and Thanksgiving all in one! So reciting pre-written prayers is not the problem, because we can see that Christ Himself wrote one such prayer for us!

Perhaps it is the Hail Mary that makes it in vain, since it is addressed to someone other than God? But then the Hail Mary doesn’t suggest any confusion that Mary is God. It asks for her intercession from heaven. Is this in vain? Well, we ask friends and family to pray for us… Why not the Saints that have gone to heaven before us? They are closer to God, after all, than any of us on the earthly side of the veil could ever be.

Maybe you are suggesting it is in vain because each decade contains 10 Hail Marys? But the Lord does not condemn persistence in our prayer life. In the meantime, the simple and repetitive nature of those 10 Hail Marys is precisely what makes the Rosary so wonderfully conducive to meditation on the Mysteries of Christ and our faith. Such Meditation puts us into a better relationship with God, helping us to become good listeners instead of a whining impetuous child who only hears what he wants to. And that meditation can bring us to a deeper and more profound understanding and appreciation of who and what God and His Beloved Son are all about and how we should respond to the Lord’s profound gift of Grace. That doesn’t seem to be in vain to me.

So I am wondering… How did you come to such a judgement of the Rosary?

 

[Pax]

I need someone to correct me and straighten me out if I am misunderstanding any of this.

First of all, I have been raised Catholic. I’m actually getting married in February next year in the Catholic church.

Now, I have done a lot of research and read the Bible. There are quite a bit of concerns I have with the Catholic church. Many have to do with the Apocrypha, the Dogma, Archangels, the Trinity, Praying to Saints.

However, for the purpose of being simple, I only will bring forth two concerns that I have. In my opinion, the TRUE church of God should be perfect and consistent with the Bible. Therefore, if these two issues contradict the Bible, then surely I should have my answer about whether or not to follow the Catholic church or not. I will site the verse where it says it is forbidden.

I hope this helps and God bless.
I would like for a fellow Catholic to please tell me why the Catholic church still does these two things and please tell me if I’m misunderstanding this or not.

1. Statues in the Catholic church are explicitly forbidden by the teachings in the Bible, yet Catholic churches and followers still have tons of statues in the church and in homes. Exodus 20:4-5 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,
2. Praying the rosary is a perfect example of praying in vain. This is said to be forbidden. Jesus tells us not to pray in vain. Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Question #1
Scripture condemns the making of images that are idols for worship. Pagans worshipped inanimate objects. The Israelites got in big trouble for making and worshipping the golden calf. They replaced the living God with a craven image. This does not prohibit the making of any and all images. If you read scripture you will also notice in the book of Exodus a description of the Ark of the Covenant. The design and construction orders were given directly by God and they included two angels at each end of the mercy seat.[Exodus 25:18] The construction of the temple included all kinds of images. Read 1 Kings 7:18-51 for a full accounting of what was included in the temple. There are other passages in scripture that also refute your understanding in this area, but these should suffice.

Question #2
Prayers that have repetitions are found in a number of places in scripture and are not condemned. Here is one example:

Rev 4:8
And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”

The admonition against repetitive prayer as you quoted from Matthew is not speaking against things like the rosary. Think about what the passage in Matthew is saying. It says:

babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words

The rosary is not babbling…it is scriptural. Moreover, the pagans pray in vain which we do not do, and we do not pray the rosary thinking that we will be heard because of many words. Check out material on praying the rosary and you will discover that the proper way to pray the rosary is as a meditation of the scriptural mysteries with the Hail Mary’s as a background hymn to the meditation.

The pagans would cry out as loud as they could to their man made idols in the hope that they would awaken their gods or somehow get their attention. That is praying in vain.

Any prayer can be done poorly and can be done in vain if the person praying is not in touch with what they are doing. That, however, is different from what we are talking about.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

I need someone to correct me and straighten me out if I am misunderstanding any of this.

First of all, I have been raised Catholic. I’m actually getting married in February next year in the Catholic church.

Now, I have done a lot of research and read the Bible. There are quite a bit of concerns I have with the Catholic church. Many have to do with the Apocrypha, the Dogma, Archangels, the Trinity, Praying to Saints.

However, for the purpose of being simple, I only will bring forth two concerns that I have. In my opinion, the TRUE church of God should be perfect and consistent with the Bible. Therefore, if these two issues contradict the Bible, then surely I should have my answer about whether or not to follow the Catholic church or not. I will site the verse where it says it is forbidden.

I would like for a fellow Catholic to please tell me why the Catholic church still does these two things and please tell me if I’m misunderstanding this or not.

1. Statues in the Catholic church are explicitly forbidden by the teachings in the Bible, yet Catholic churches and followers still have tons of statues in the church and in homes. Exodus 20:4-5 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,
2. Praying the rosary is a perfect example of praying in vain. This is said to be forbidden. Jesus tells us not to pray in vain. Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

1. How about a reading from Numbers that was after Exodus.
   Num 21:5-9
   5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.” 6 Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 And the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live

Is God contradicting Himself? God does not contradict Himself, nor does Sacred Scripture contradict itself, so what’s the next logical conclusion? I urge you to research the difference between veneration and worship.

1. How a reading from Matt 26.

Matt 26:26-44
36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsem’ane, and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I go yonder and pray.” 37 And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zeb’edee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.” 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” 40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, “So, could you not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 42 Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done.” 43 And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. 44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words.

Jesus prayed three times. Was it vain to do so?

Praying without intent is vanity, but the way you should pray be it personal, a saint prayer, or the Rosary should always be done with the fullest intent. What does it say in the Rosary on “O GOD”? “O GOD, whose only begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life, grant, we beseech Thee, that meditating upon these mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen.”

Definition of MEDITATE
intransitive verb
1: to engage in contemplation or reflection
2: to engage in mental exercise (as concentration on one’s breathing or repetition of a mantra) for the purpose of reaching a heightened level of spiritual awareness
transitive verb
1: to focus one’s thoughts on : reflect on or ponder over
2: to plan or project in the mind : intend, purpose

Definition of VAIN
1: having no real value : idle, worthless
2: marked by futility or ineffectualness : unsuccessful, useless

What’s the difference here?

Enjoy

 

[EricFilmer]

In my opinion, the TRUE church of God should be perfect and consistent with the Bible. Therefore, if these two issues contradict the Bible, then surely I should have my answer about whether or not to follow the Catholic church or not.

No Catholic doctrine contradicts the Bible.
Catholic doctrines only contradict certain people’s interpretations of the Bible.

Moreover, if such people want to insist that their personal interpretations of the Bible are actually the universal standard by which all Christian doctrines are to be judged, then I ask them, “What authority gives you the right to declare that your interpretation is ‘God’s own’ and everyone else’ is erroneous?”

 

[puzzleannie]

I ne
2. Praying the rosary is a perfect example of praying in vain. This is said to be forbidden. Jesus tells us not to pray in vain. Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

pagans do not say the rosary, which is a prayer that begins with two gospel verses from Luke. Pagans do not pray with gospel verses. they babble nonsense syllables. Surely as a Christian with faith in scripture you cannot object to any prayer based solidly in scripture.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I need someone to correct me and straighten me out if I am misunderstanding any of this.

First of all, I have been raised Catholic. I’m actually getting married in February next year in the Catholic church.

Now, I have done a lot of research and read the Bible. There are quite a bit of concerns I have with the Catholic church. Many have to do with the Apocrypha, the Dogma, Archangels, the Trinity, Praying to Saints.

However, for the purpose of being simple, I only will bring forth two concerns that I have. In my opinion, the TRUE church of God should be perfect and consistent with the Bible. Therefore, if these two issues contradict the Bible, then surely I should have my answer about whether or not to follow the Catholic church or not. I will site the verse where it says it is forbidden.

I would like for a fellow Catholic to please tell me why the Catholic church still does these two things and please tell me if I’m misunderstanding this or not.

1. Statues in the Catholic church are explicitly forbidden by the teachings in the Bible, yet Catholic churches and followers still have tons of statues in the church and in homes. Exodus 20:4-5 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,
2. Praying the rosary is a perfect example of praying in vain. This is said to be forbidden. Jesus tells us not to pray in vain. Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Let’s be clear that I am not a catholic, but a person with catholic leanings.
Now that we have got that clear I will challenge the logical fallacies you indulge in.
Before we even get to your number one or number two, let’s start with the idea you float out there that the true (sorry, I don’t do all caps) church of God should be perfect and consistant with the bible.

That’s where I need to remind you about this little annoying thing called logic.
Please justify yours.

 

[Church_Militant]

I need someone to correct me and straighten me out if I am misunderstanding any of this.

First of all, I have been raised Catholic. I’m actually getting married in February next year in the Catholic church.

Now, I have done a lot of research and read the Bible. There are quite a bit of concerns I have with the Catholic church. Many have to do with the Apocrypha, the Dogma, Archangels, the Trinity, Praying to Saints.

However, for the purpose of being simple, I only will bring forth two concerns that I have. In my opinion, the TRUE church of God should be perfect and consistent with the Bible. Therefore, if these two issues contradict the Bible, then surely I should have my answer about whether or not to follow the Catholic church or not. I will site the verse where it says it is forbidden.

I would like for a fellow Catholic to please tell me why the Catholic church still does these two things and please tell me if I’m misunderstanding this or not.

1. Statues in the Catholic church are explicitly forbidden by the teachings in the Bible, yet Catholic churches and followers still have tons of statues in the church and in homes. Exodus 20:4-5 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,

I wrote the following article for my blog that might help you out, and I’ll include a link to a good Catholic Answers article as well.

• Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT
• Do Catholics Worship Statues?

1. Praying the rosary is a perfect example of praying in vain. This is said to be forbidden. Jesus tells us not to pray in vain. Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

• The Scandal of the Decades: The Rosary and the Bible
• Is Jesus against Catholic Prayers?
• THE ROSARY DISSECTED

 

[Catholic_Bro]

Wow!!! I’m a member of other forums and I must say I am very impressed. Thank you for all of this feedback. I am reading it now. Please give me a moment to take all of this in and understand it correctly. Thank you.

And to the one who called me a troll, zz912. I’m not trolling a Catholic forum. I have better things to do than stoop to that level. I am here because I have struggled in my faith in the past few years. I am not saying that I have halted my search at all. In fact, it is the opposite. I don’t know how you have “clues” about me trolling.

I am 24 years old. I have been raised Catholic. I have received Baptism, First Reconciliation, First Communion, and Confirmation. My dad has been a fourth degree knight in the K of C since 1991 and has been a Eucharistic minister for over 20 years. I have been the church pianist for my parish for 6 years and I also was a alter server from ages 10-13. My Fiance is very interested in converting to Catholicism and we are getting married in the Catholic church February 25, 2012. Now, what clues do you have that I am a troll???

To the ones questioning my motives or what not… there have been a few concerns that I have and I need better understanding. It is interesting to me that the Catholic church is the ONLY entity on the planet earth that believes that the Apocrypha even holds water. This is another concern I have.

I have 3 pages of concerns that I have gathered on notebook paper over the past few years that I have been researching. I decided to research outwardly first.

I believe it takes years and years of research to come in terms of having such a solid faith that nothing can hinder it. I need to come to these terms because I want to be a solid follower and have the correct knowledge of God’s word so that I don’t follow blindly.

I’m reading the posts above now…

 

[Catholic_Bro]

You need to go with what the Bible actually says, not with what people say it says.

Start with The Basics then read The Communion of Saints: Prayer and Veneration

If all repetitious prayer is vain then rip Psalm 136 out of your Bible, then storm into your local synagogue and tell the Rabbi to stop chanting the Psalms over and over again. NOT.

Thank you VERY MUCH for these links. Explained a lot for me.

Point 1: Worship of graven images are forbidden. Honoring Jesus, the Saints, and the Angels and reminding ourselves of the holiness to which we are called and the wonderful examples we have to help us is not forbidden. If I were to worship a golden calf or even a crucifix as if it were God Himself, there would be a problem. But thankfully, I am an intelligent person and am fully aware that the crucifix is NOT Jesus, but only representative of Him. Therefore I do not worship the statue, but the Lord alone. Meanwhile, the crucifix is a good reminder of Christ’s sacrifice for my salvation and WHY He is so worthy of worship to begin with.

Point 2: You claim the Rosary is praying in vain. The word vain means (according to dictionary.com)) 1. Having or showing an excessively high opinion of one’s appearance, abilities, or worth, or 2. Producing no result; useless or 3. Having no meaning or likelihood of fulfillment. So, what does it mean to pray in vain? If it is merely to repeat the same words then virtually every Christian from the beginning of the Church is in trouble because almost ALL of us have memorized and at least occasionally recited as a prayer the Lord’s Prayer, which Jesus taught the Twelve in the Book of Matthew. But wait a minute–He instructed us to imitate that prayer, didn’t He? Perhaps He did not mean for us to do so only by exact recitation, but He certainly didn’t forbid it. Indeed, He put it forward as a perfect model for prayer. It includes prayer of praise and adoration, Prayer of petition, Intercession, and Thanksgiving all in one! So reciting pre-written prayers is not the problem, because we can see that Christ Himself wrote one such prayer for us!

Perhaps it is the Hail Mary that makes it in vain, since it is addressed to someone other than God? But then the Hail Mary doesn’t suggest any confusion that Mary is God. It asks for her intercession from heaven. Is this in vain? Well, we ask friends and family to pray for us… Why not the Saints that have gone to heaven before us? They are closer to God, after all, than any of us on the earthly side of the veil could ever be.

Maybe you are suggesting it is in vain because each decade contains 10 Hail Marys? But the Lord does not condemn persistence in our prayer life. In the meantime, the simple and repetitive nature of those 10 Hail Marys is precisely what makes the Rosary so wonderfully conducive to meditation on the Mysteries of Christ and our faith. Such Meditation puts us into a better relationship with God, helping us to become good listeners instead of a whining impetuous child who only hears what he wants to. And that meditation can bring us to a deeper and more profound understanding and appreciation of who and what God and His Beloved Son are all about and how we should respond to the Lord’s profound gift of Grace. That doesn’t seem to be in vain to me.

So I am wondering… How did you come to such a judgement of the Rosary?

I came to such a judgement because I read Mathew 6:7. This was my interpretation of it. Your post has cleared up a lot of my concern. Thank you.

 

[Catholic_Bro]

Question #1
Scripture condemns the making of images that are idols for worship. Pagans worshipped inanimate objects. The Israelites got in big trouble for making and worshipping the golden calf. They replaced the living God with a craven image. This does not prohibit the making of any and all images. If you read scripture you will also notice in the book of Exodus a description of the Ark of the Covenant. The design and construction orders were given directly by God and they included two angels at each end of the mercy seat.[Exodus 25:18] The construction of the temple included all kinds of images. Read 1 Kings 7:18-51 for a full accounting of what was included in the temple. There are other passages in scripture that also refute your understanding in this area, but these should suffice.

Question #2
Prayers that have repetitions are found in a number of places in scripture and are not condemned. Here is one example:

The admonition against repetitive prayer as you quoted from Matthew is not speaking against things like the rosary. Think about what the passage in Matthew is saying. It says:

The rosary is not babbling…it is scriptural. Moreover, the pagans pray in vain which we do not do, and we do not pray the rosary thinking that we will be heard because of many words. Check out material on praying the rosary and you will discover that the proper way to pray the rosary is as a meditation of the scriptural mysteries with the Hail Mary’s as a background hymn to the meditation.

The pagans would cry out as loud as they could to their man made idols in the hope that they would awaken their gods or somehow get their attention. That is praying in vain.

Any prayer can be done poorly and can be done in vain if the person praying is not in touch with what they are doing. That, however, is different from what we are talking about.

Wow… very informative post. Thank you SO much! I am understanding this a little bit more and more.

1. How about a reading from Numbers that was after Exodus.
   Num 21:5-9
   5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.” 6 Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 And the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live

Is God contradicting Himself? God does not contradict Himself, nor does Sacred Scripture contradict itself, so what’s the next logical conclusion? I urge you to research the difference between veneration and worship.

1. How a reading from Matt 26.

Matt 26:26-44
36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsem’ane, and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I go yonder and pray.” 37 And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zeb’edee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.” 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” 40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, “So, could you not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 42 Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done.” 43 And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. 44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words.

Jesus prayed three times. Was it vain to do so?

Praying without intent is vanity, but the way you should pray be it personal, a saint prayer, or the Rosary should always be done with the fullest intent. What does it say in the Rosary on “O GOD”? "O GOD, whose only begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life, grant, we beseech Thee, that meditating upon these mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen."

Definition of MEDITATE
intransitive verb
1: to engage in contemplation or reflection
2: to engage in mental exercise (as concentration on one’s breathing or repetition of a mantra) for the purpose of reaching a heightened level of spiritual awareness
transitive verb
1: to focus one’s thoughts on : reflect on or ponder over
2: to plan or project in the mind : intend, purpose

Definition of VAIN
1: having no real value : idle, worthless
2: marked by futility or ineffectualness : unsuccessful, useless

What’s the difference here?

Enjoy

You bring up valid points. Thank you.

 

[Catholic_Bro]

pagans do not say the rosary, which is a prayer that begins with two gospel verses from Luke. Pagans do not pray with gospel verses. they babble nonsense syllables. Surely as a Christian with faith in scripture you cannot object to any prayer based solidly in scripture.

Very true… thanks for showing me that point of view.

Let’s be clear that I am not a catholic, but a person with catholic leanings.
Now that we have got that clear I will challenge the logical fallacies you indulge in.
Before we even get to your number one or number two, let’s start with the idea you float out there that the true (sorry, I don’t do all caps) church of God should be perfect and consistant with the bible.

That’s where I need to remind you about this little annoying thing called logic.
Please justify yours.

My logic is that the church of God should be pristine. It should have no inconsistencies and should demonstrate the truth that the Bible teaches. If a church does not follow the Bible’s teachings exactly, then it cannot be God’s church, but satan’s church trying to capture the souls of mindless lemmings.

My opinion is that if I have a belief, then I should be able to back it up 100% and have no question about my belief. This will mold me into a solid Christ follower who is following the TRUTH. I do not want to believe in something just because someone told me to do so. I need to understand what I am believing in. If it is not possible for me to completely understand it, then how can I feel secure teaching that interpretation if I do not fully understand it.

 

[po18guy]

I need someone to correct me and straighten me out if I am misunderstanding any of this.

You seriously need to obtain a copy of Catholicism for Dummies. Seriously. It will counter all of the anti-Catholic blather and propaganda that has eroded your faith in the Church.

 

[NewsTheMan]

I’m smelling a troll. Too many clues to ignore.

“Roman” Catholic, apocrypha, knowing every specific Bible verse he thinks refutes Catholic doctrine or practices.

Before I respond I would need some more convincing this is a true Catholic with questions. I think it’s a protestant under false pretenses.

He is not a troll. I know him from another forum, he is having a lot of trouble with his faith because of all the propaganda that anti-Catholics are feeding him.

As a response to you and a general warning to all the guys:

Our dear Brother here is struggling - as we can see. He posted on another forum the same problems, and that forum has a handful of fervent anti-Catholics who immediately posted the usual things [whore of babylon, satanic cult pretending to be Christian, Rosary is evil, etc]. Please, if there was ever a time to spend on someone it is now.

You seriously need to obtain a copy of Catholicism for Dummies. Seriously. It will counter all of the anti-Catholic blather and propaganda that has eroded your faith in the Church.

Great suggestion, and there are probably a few more that I am unaware of that can help.

For now, and for free, Catholic.com has a ton of tracts that are awesome and deal with accusations etc. Just type in keywords and it should help.

Also, I am pretty sure you can email the Apologists at Catholic Answers with questions and they will be happy to help.

 

[NewsTheMan]

Very true… thanks for showing me that point of view.

My logic is that the church of God should be pristine. It should have no inconsistencies and should demonstrate the truth that the Bible teaches. If a church does not follow the Bible’s teachings exactly, then it cannot be God’s church, but satan’s church trying to capture the souls of mindless lemmings.

My opinion is that if I have a belief, then I should be able to back it up 100% and have no question about my belief. This will mold me into a solid Christ follower who is following the TRUTH. I do not want to believe in something just because someone told me to do so. I need to understand what I am believing in. If it is not possible for me to completely understand it, then how can I feel secure teaching that interpretation if I do not fully understand it.

www.scripturecatholic.com

It has all you need for all your questions. The Catholic Church is the Truth.

Also, be aware of this:

You don’t need to understand everything. That is intellectual pride overpowering what should be faith. That is not to say that the Church just teaches without giving reason. However, sometimes we believe ourselves to be above the Magisterium and think we should follow ourselves rather than the Church. Intellectually, I only understand a few things. St.Thomas himself said [after a vision] that all he has written is useless - and he had undoubtedly the greatest understanding of the faith. What I do know, is that my intellect comes second to my faith in God and in His Church.

 

[NewsTheMan]

No Catholic doctrine contradicts the Bible.
Catholic doctrines only contradict certain people’s interpretations of the Bible.

Moreover, if such people want to insist that their personal interpretations of the Bible are actually the universal standard by which all Christian doctrines are to be judged, then I ask them, “What authority gives you the right to declare that your interpretation is ‘God’s own’ and everyone else’ is erroneous?”

Great point. Something I always bring up with our anti-Catholic brethren, and they never have an answer.

 

[Catholic_Bro]

www.scripturecatholic.com

It has all you need for all your questions. The Catholic Church is the Truth.

Also, be aware of this:

You don’t need to understand everything. That is intellectual pride overpowering what should be faith. That is not to say that the Church just teaches without giving reason. However, sometimes we believe ourselves to be above the Magisterium and think we should follow ourselves rather than the Church. Intellectually, I only understand a few things. St.Thomas himself said [after a vision] that all he has written is useless - and he had undoubtedly the greatest understanding of the faith. What I do know, is that my intellect comes second to my faith in God and in His Church.

I admit that it is impossible to understand everything. I at least want to understand the basis of my beliefs and know where the Catholic church is coming form on certain issues so that I may be stronger in my faith. There are just a few things I need to fully understand so that I feel confident in my faith if that makes any sense.