Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons

[Snow]

Incorrect, there is a shortage of Irish priests (i.e priests that are ethnically Irish), no big deal, India and Central Africa is bailing everyone out with a steady supply of new priests, praise be to God.

The poster wasn’t incorrect and it certainly is a big deal. People in Ireland don’t call it a crisis, they call it a catastrophe.

Last year 160 priest died while only 9 new were ordained. 228 nuns died with only 2 taking final vows.

Church attendance has collapsed.

Churches and seminaries are closing.

The cost of the sex scandal has drained the Church’s resources.

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1976925/posts

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F05EEDF113BF932A25754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

If you think the answer is to simply import priests from the southern hemisphere, you ought to read Phillip Jenkins book The Next Christianity. It’s a scary prospect. They operate in kind of a pre-Vatican II world. They have a believe in trances, visions, dreams and superstition. Are you following the story of the child-witches in Nigeria? Those branding the children as witches are Evangelical, not Catholic but it tells you the mind set of the culture.

 

[majick275]

The poster wasn’t incorrect and it certainly is a big deal. People in Ireland don’t call it a crisis, they call it a catastrophe.

Last year 160 priest died while only 9 new were ordained. 228 nuns died with only 2 taking final vows.

Church attendance has collapsed.

Churches and seminaries are closing.

The cost of the sex scandal has drained the Church’s resources.

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1976925/posts

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F05EEDF113BF932A25754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

If you think the answer is to simply import priests from the southern hemisphere, you ought to read Phillip Jenkins book The Next Christianity. It’s a scary prospect. They operate in kind of a pre-Vatican II world. They have a believe in trances, visions, dreams and superstition. Are you following the story of the child-witches in Nigeria? Those branding the children as witches are Evangelical, not Catholic but it tells you the mind set of the culture.

and what exactly is meant by “pre-vatican2 world”? how is that bad? it is the more traditional parishes here in the US that appear to be enjoying the largest numbers of seminarians and religious, not to mention their solid attendance. your example in nigeria is, I believe, not applicable as the fundamental differences between evangelicals and catholics are significant.

churches in general are going through a “crisis of faith” these days as secular humanism, atheism and flat out laziness/selfishness abounds. however…the RCIA classes i have been involved with continue to provide a steady stream of decently catechized converts who are true believers. my parish has no shortage of priests or nuns and most masses are packed.

I think the church will be just fine. as pope benedict has indicated, we may end up with a smaller church but it will be more faithful.

the LDS on the other hand appear to be fading away like so many other uniquely american restorationist churches. I am somewhat surprised at your criticism of “trances, visions, dreams and superstitons” given the origin and doctrine of the LDS church.

 

[LDNCatholic]

The poster wasn’t incorrect and it certainly is a big deal. People in Ireland don’t call it a crisis, they call it a catastrophe.

Last year 160 priest died while only 9 new were ordained. 228 nuns died with only 2 taking final vows.

Church attendance has collapsed.

Churches and seminaries are closing.

The cost of the sex scandal has drained the Church’s resources.

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1976925/posts

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F05EEDF113BF932A25754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

If you think the answer is to simply import priests from the southern hemisphere, you ought to read Phillip Jenkins book The Next Christianity. It’s a scary prospect. They operate in kind of a pre-Vatican II world. They have a believe in trances, visions, dreams and superstition. Are you following the story of the child-witches in Nigeria? Those branding the children as witches are Evangelical, not Catholic but it tells you the mind set of the culture.

My Indian priest, and my Nigerian priest are very orthodox, they are not superstitious and they don’t act like the evangelical sects out there.

Are you Irish? Because I am, and I can tell you that they aren’t panicking that their priest is brown.

And no. The answer is not in the southern hemisphere, the answer is spreading Catholic Truth across the entire world and teaching Catholics to be faithful.

 

[Snow]

and what exactly is meant by “pre-vatican2 world”?

A greater focus on the idea that the RCC is the one and only true church and path to salvation, a condemnation of religious liberty or freedom of religion, more focus on death, judgement, heaven and hell, a belief that the bible is historically inerrant, shunning of the Church’s modern progressivist stance, etc.

how is that bad?

Maybe it’s not. It depends on what you like I guess.

the LDS on the other hand appear to be fading away like so many other uniquely american restorationist churches.

I think you just made that up. You did, didn’t you.

The Church of Jesus Christ has more members than ever before, more operating units (stakes, wards, branches) than ever before, more temples than ever before and is in more countries than ever before. In 1984 noted sociologist Rodney Stark predicted that by 2080 The Chuch of Jesus Christ would have between 64,000,000 and 260,000,000. He revisited the topic 30 years later and found that the Church had exceeded his growth predictions. During that time the Church has been one of the faster growing denominations, at a time when many are shrinking.

I don’t get hung up on numbers and statistics but won’t let you slide by with misstatements.

I am somewhat surprised at your criticism of “trances, visions, dreams and superstitons” given the origin and doctrine of the LDS church.

I guess that too depends on what you like. If you believe that poverty and illness are caused by sin and that exorcism is a reasonable approach to deal with illness, you may be a fan of the Christian world-view in the southern hemisphere.

 

[Snow]

duplicate

 

[Snow]

My Indian priest, and my Nigerian priest are very orthodox, they are not superstitious and they don’t act like the evangelical sects out there.

Are you Irish? Because I am, and I can tell you that they aren’t panicking that their priest is brown.

And no. The answer is not in the southern hemisphere, the answer is spreading Catholic Truth across the entire world and teaching Catholics to be faithful.

It’s not a function of skin color.

I am glad that you have a priest your are happy with. I lived in South America and I think that many Catholics in Europe and North America wouldn’t be too happy if the RCC there was the same as I saw in So. America.

 

[4Squarebaby]

It’s not a function of skin color.

I am glad that you have a priest your are happy with. I lived in South America and I think that many Catholics in Europe and North America wouldn’t be too happy if the RCC there was the same as I saw in So. America.

NonCatholic here. In Latino Los Angeles when I’ve visted, Catholic Churches mostly in Asian areas, the junior pastors were almost always African natives.

 

[Snow]

NonCatholic here. In Latino Los Angeles when I’ve visted, Catholic Churches mostly in Asian areas, the junior pastors were almost always African natives.

The entire Catholic population and power base is shifting to the southern hemisphere and to 3rd world countries. The next Pope, and those that follow, may be from Africa or South America.

Of course, that is not unique to Catholicism. It is estimated that by about 2025, that ‘proportion of non-Latino whites among the world’s Christians will have fallen to perhaps one in five.’ (Phillip Jenkins)

 

[majick275]

A greater focus on the idea that the RCC is the one and only true church and path to salvation, a condemnation of religious liberty or freedom of religion, more focus on death, judgement, heaven and hell, a belief that the bible is historically inerrant, shunning of the Church’s modern progressivist stance, etc.

okay then put me down as “pre-vatican2” then. I believe in original recipe catholicism

Maybe it’s not. It depends on what you like I guess.

okay then I see it as a good thing.

I think you just made that up. You did, didn’t you.

The Church of Jesus Christ has more members than ever before, more operating units (stakes, wards, branches) than ever before, more temples than ever before and is in more countries than ever before. In 1984 noted sociologist Rodney Stark predicted that by 2080 The Chuch of Jesus Christ would have between 64,000,000 and 260,000,000. He revisited the topic 30 years later and found that the Church had exceeded his growth predictions. During that time the Church has been one of the faster growing denominations, at a time when many are shrinking.

I don’t get hung up on numbers and statistics but won’t let you slide by with misstatements.

you want to quote stark? please… the LDS are small on paper and even smaller in reality. you’re numbers are old as well as being from a questionable source. look at how empty those mctemples are. they are closing stakes here in CA. I have seen many wards in
Texas that looked more like struggling branches. the “fastest growing” church myth is obviously debunked.

sltrib.com/ci_2890645

how many of those members in LDS stats are ones who have resigned? inactive? dead? anyone who has been involved in LDS leadership at the ward level even knows growth only occurs from biths among active families and migration. convert baptisms are all but gone now with the majority being “distressed persons” seeking help with abysmal retention rates. overseas offices are being merged and few stakes outside the US exist without significant help from American leadership. you can’t afford to get too into numbers because they are so at odds with the message of growth that has been so harped on by LDS authorities for so long. the bandwagon approach is no longer viable. the MLM tactics can’t survive in this era of instant information.

I guess that too depends on what you like. If you believe that poverty and illness are caused by sin and that exorcism is a reasonable approach to deal with illness, you may be a fan of the Christian world-view in the southern hemisphere.

that would certainly describe Brigham Youngs teachings as well as many other LDS “prophets”. I am a fan of giving God worship, thanks and praise and accepting what he allows in my life. I believe in turning to God as often as possible.

 

[Snow]

you want to quote stark? please… the LDS are small on paper and even smaller in reality. you’re numbers are old as well as being from a questionable source. look at how empty those mctemples are. they are closing stakes here in CA. I have seen many wards in
Texas that looked more like struggling branches. the “fastest growing” church myth is obviously debunked.

If you want to refute Stark, go ahead. What, specifically is he mistaken about in his new book: The Rise of Mormonism.

… and you ought to reread my post. I didn’t say that it was the fastest growing church.

And as to the rest of your claims, if you can correct Stark, with facts (not rhetoric) that would suit me just fine.

I can tell you that I served a mission not so long ago. At the time I started, there were zero stakes. Now there are 30+ and a temple. Populations shift, people move in and move out. Growth rates and shrink rates cycle up and cycle down. Looking a examples in the short run don’t much help.

 

[majick275]

If you want to refute Stark, go ahead. What, specifically is he mistaken about in his new book: The Rise of Mormonism.

… and you ought to reread my post. I didn’t say that it was the fastest growing church.

And as to the rest of your claims, if you can correct Stark, with facts (not rhetoric) that would suit me just fine.

I can tell you that I served a mission not so long ago. At the time I started, there were zero stakes. Now there are 30+ and a temple. Populations shift, people move in and move out. Growth rates and shrink rates cycle up and cycle down. Looking a examples in the short run don’t much help.

first of all Stark just made up his model for LDS growth. he presented no facts. but let’s look at his “study” a little deeper. his work is from 1998 and is based on even older data. the numbers are manipulated to say what he wanted. what numbers from his work should we look at? how about rates of convert growth and per capita missionary growth.for the year ending 31 dec 1999 (trying to say contemporary w/ stark) those numbers were +2.85% and 5.22 respectively. that represents a drop of 35% since 1989. already trending down there is no way his projections can be met. from 3.57 M members in 1975 to 11M in 2000 (on paper which does not account for activity, retention or resignation rates) we see a very obvious bell curve in LDS growth. we see a fairly steady 300k/yr. rate of convert baptisms. (with very low retention rates and even worse activity rates) coupled with a birth rate that is 1.33% above population growth it is far more realistic to see a peak membership of 40-50 million members at the end of this century. I thnik that extremely generous given the obvious issues with low activity and increasing resignations. many of these members are quite simply “not real”. in 1989 there were 228 LDS missions that produced 318940 converts. in 1999 there were 333 missions producing 306171 convert baptisms. slicing and dicing struggling stakes and wards and building mctemples creates an illusion of growth but the actual result is quite different. Where did you serve your mission? when I left I was in a bishopric in TX and I know what I was seeing. that is not statistically relevant but it appeared to coincide with the statistics i can find.

watching General conference one can see an extremely ethnocentric church led almost exclusively by “white and delightsome” american businessmen of the “mormon corridor”. do you really see any significant growth of active members in foreign missions?

I think the numbers show about 4M active members worldwide and i have seen talks by mission presidents just flogging the missionaries for numbers but it looks they just aren’t going to come.

 

[Snow]

first of all Stark just made up his model for LDS growth. he presented no facts. but let’s look at his “study” a little deeper. his work is from 1998 and is based on even older data. the numbers are manipulated to say what he wanted. what numbers from his work should we look at? how about rates of convert growth and per capita missionary growth.for the year ending 31 dec 1999 (trying to say contemporary w/ stark) those numbers were +2.85% and 5.22 respectively. that represents a drop of 35% since 1989. already trending down there is no way his projections can be met. from 3.57 M members in 1975 to 11M in 2000 (on paper which does not account for activity, retention or resignation rates) we see a very obvious bell curve in LDS growth. we see a fairly steady 300k/yr. rate of convert baptisms. (with very low retention rates and even worse activity rates) coupled with a birth rate that is 1.33% above population growth it is far more realistic to see a peak membership of 40-50 million members at the end of this century. I thnik that extremely generous given the obvious issues with low activity and increasing resignations. many of these members are quite simply “not real”. in 1989 there were 228 LDS missions that produced 318940 converts. in 1999 there were 333 missions producing 306171 convert baptisms. slicing and dicing struggling stakes and wards and building mctemples creates an illusion of growth but the actual result is quite different. Where did you serve your mission? when I left I was in a bishopric in TX and I know what I was seeing. that is not statistically relevant but it appeared to coincide with the statistics i can find.

Arrrggg, Now I can’t find my copy so, so let me defer for now.

watching General conference one can see an extremely ethnocentric church led almost exclusively by “white and delightsome” american businessmen of the “mormon corridor”. do you really see any significant growth of active members in foreign missions?

I was in a Ecuador. There are now 30 plus Ecuadorian Stake Presidents compared to the none when I was there. If your point is that the Church could use more ethnically diverse General Authorities, I’d agree.

I think the numbers show about 4M active members worldwide and i have seen talks by mission presidents just flogging the missionaries for numbers but it looks they just aren’t going to come.

I thought they gave up flogging.

What’s happened over recent years is less, for me, an issue than what’s happened over the previous 30. It may be a trend or it may just be a cycle.

 

[mfbukowski]

anyone who has been involved in LDS leadership at the ward level even knows growth only occurs from biths among active families and migration. convert baptisms are all but gone now with the majority being “distressed persons” seeking help with abysmal retention rates.

.

This is just plain a lie. I was at a baptism Sunday, We had one the sunday before, and another next week. 2 of those had Catholic backgrounds, as do I, another convert of 30 years.

About 40% of our ward are Catholic converts. We love our catholics – we make great Mormons!

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

About 40% of our ward are Catholic converts. We love our catholics – we make great Mormons!

these catholics are horribly ignorant to follow a religion founded by a liar and sexual deviant named joe smith.

 

[Snow]

these catholics are horribly ignorant to follow a religion founded by a liar and sexual deviant named joe smith.

Nothing like an intelligent response from a high caliber person.

Top of the morning to you laddie.

 

[cazayoux]

these catholics are horribly ignorant to follow a religion founded by a liar and sexual deviant named joe smith.

While others thought this response crass, it is nonetheless true.

His wife caught him in the barn with a girl.
Not surprising, old Joe has a prophecy that says it’s okay to be with multiple women.

The story of an angel telling him about the gold tablets hidden was first a story by Joe about a bloody pirate telling him about hidden gold.

Joseph was a very engaging man who was able to lead many people wherever he wanted. Too bad he didn’t use this gift to bring people to the truth rather than his own self-serving power trip.

michel

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

While others thought this response crass, it is nonetheless true.

His wife caught him in the barn with a girl.
Not surprising, old Joe has a prophecy that says it’s okay to be with multiple women.

The story of an angel telling him about the gold tablets hidden was first a story by Joe about a bloody pirate telling him about hidden gold.

Joseph was a very engaging man who was able to lead many people wherever he wanted. Too bad he didn’t use this gift to bring people to the truth rather than his own self-serving power trip.

michel

Last I heard, he had at least 30 wives.

You have to admit, though. It’s pretty gutsy of Mormons in general to really have faith that this angel Moroni was not a demon in disguise. Any Christian knows that the devil can come to you in any form, even an angel. Besides, he wandered out into a desert at like, fourteen ?]! Mirage, anyone?

 

[cazayoux]

Last I heard, he had at least 30 wives.

You have to admit, though. It’s pretty gutsy of Mormons in general to really have faith that this angel Moroni was not a demon in disguise. Any Christian knows that the devil can come to you in any form, even an angel. Besides, he wandered out into a desert at like, fourteen ?]! Mirage, anyone?

Well … Satan IS an angel… a fallen one, actually.

When young Joseph first told his story of gold to be found in the woods, it wasn’t an angel he said appeared to him … it was a bloody pirate … and there was no mention of plates with writing on them.

Had anyone other than Joseph Smith actually seen the plates?

… and for what it’s worth … I fully respect the LDS involvement in the Prop 8 vote. Thank you for your efforts!!!

michel

 

[MelanieAnne]

Re: The growth of LDS ~ I have personal friends who have left the LDS church years ago, some of whom are now Catholic, who are still counted among the LDS membership. The numbers are clearly inflated even if such inflation is inadvertent.

Re: Catholics converting to Mormonism ~ sounds like inadequately catechized Catholics seeking a social group to me, but that’s just my opinion. For what it’s worth, my RCIA class (I’m an Episcopal convert to RC) had a Mormon in it. So it goes both ways.

 

[cthulhubryan]

Re: The growth of LDS ~ I have personal friends who have left the LDS church years ago, some of whom are now Catholic, who are still counted among the LDS membership. The numbers are clearly inflated even if such inflation is inadvertent.

Many of the numbers include “converts” in sub-saharan Africa that also count in other groups numbers as converts but who go back to tribal religions after whichever missionary leaves. As such all religions contain numbers that are not accurate. I have several friends who are ex-LDS but are still counted. To be removed you need to inform your LDS bishop and also inform the Membership Office to remove you from the rolls.

In 1998 the LDS church reached the point where births outpaced baptisms. This is not necessarily a slam against missionary activity but is more a function of numbers, as the numbers in the church grow and have babies the numbers of growth by babies must also increase.