"Catholics Reject John Chapter Three"

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by krakee
Ed it looks like your running out of excuses. How many TRUE Popes can there be? Jesus appointed 1.

I’m not running out of excuses, From where did you come up with that nonsense? You missed my point concerning the three men claiming to be popes all at the same time. You say Jesus appointed One. Then Jesus must have changed His mind, because Pope Gregory XII one of the three who claimed to be a pope was kicked out by the Council of Constance. But now he’s back again according to the official lists as a legitimate popes???

Aside from that anyone can claim the Papacy and many have. In fact I’m the Pope Ed, did you know that?

No! I didn’t know that?

That’s more believable than you being Santa Clause anyway.

I’ve have a beard!

What would the true Pope do? And don’t forget, the Pope is only infallible on matters of faith and morals, as Jesus established.

Do you have a Scripture reference for me to check to see if that’s true?

Aside from that, he’s a human being in which anyone, including Paul, can rebuke. Did you know Pope John Paul II went to confession once a week?

NO! I didn’t know that.

ONCE A WEEK. Man that’s 4 times more than I TRY to go and I think once a month is exceptional

That really, really surprises me! Krakee, I imagine that you go to confession in order to confess sin. Would you be so kind and explain what this means, 1 John 3:9, “No one is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. v10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who are the children of etc.etc.” What is your exegesis on that?

Do you find yourself argumentative with your family at times?

Nope! I don’t have a family. I’m the only one left.

Do you miss the graces Ed?

Nope! The one and only grace that interested me is the grace of salvation which I received when I called upon the Lord to save me and became born again by believing that Jesus’ Blood had forgiven and atoned for ALL my sins. I was “water” baptized show my repentance. There’s no other grace that I can recieve that counts towards my salvation. I do good works to gain rewards

I won’t be disappointed, I actually expected that. Anyway, if you feel like being even more courteous, my question which still hasn’t been answered is:

Are you, Ed, an infallible interpreter of Scripture

This is the best that I can do which I already posted it for you: "Concerning the infallibility questions, NO! I’m not infallible and I don’t believe any one is including any of your popes. There’s nothing in Scripture that tells us to believe that! " God Bless. ED O.

 

[jayr_unknown]

Acts 22:16: “Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon His name.”

Hmmm…seems this passage doesn’t agree with you.

In Acts 10:44-48, it is decided there is no reason to keep baptism from Cornelius and other gentiles, for they already speak in tongues and have the Holy Spirit, so Paul orders them to be baptized. Protestants think they have us here, because of baptism was really necessary for salvation, they wouldn’t have the Holy Spirit separate from it. So the real salvation is the baptism of the Spirit, and the baptism is the outward symbol.
The thing is, they don’t have us here at all. First off, God is NOT confined by His sacraments, but His sacraments are always efficacious. Second, in Matthew 7:22, Jesus speaks of those that do deeds of the Spirit in His name such as driving out demons and prophesying, even though He does not know them. Third, Paul still ORDERS them to get baptized. You can have the Holy Spirit, but Jesus said you need WATER AND THE SPIRIT. Both, not one, because it is a sacrament. The Holy Spirit often manifests itself in many different ways, not necessarily always in forms of salvation. In other words, the Holy Spirit can use somebody or manifest itself for the purposes of God, separate from actually saving somebody. For that person to be saved, they need to get baptized.
Protestant often try to say “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” but in every case where baptism was by the Holy Spirit (and indeed it is), it was THROUGH WATER. This is confirmed by the fact that it is said that John baptizes with only water, but Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. But when he does this, it is through water. Jesus takes that symbol of death, and makes it a death to sin that actually imparts grace. This is a sacrament. There is simply no real evidence that can be provided that shows that you can separate the two as part of the Christian faith.

Also, the practice of infant baptism is attested to very early in the Church, and flies in the face of any reasoning that it is an outward sign.

Justin Martyr: As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father… and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Tertullian: [N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life” (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus: Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

HHHMMMMM i really like this interpretation.indeed we cant separate water and baptism if it is POSSIBLE.although Jesus said that believing him is what will really saves us in general,baptism is always there and not any baptism but through water.it is only after doing this that the words “believing him” makes sense.where it is impossible to perform like the one ed is talking bout the thief on the cross,panaveno said something about baptism of desire and martydom.hahaha quite true but these are maybe for those that who do not know Jesus yet.but for us it is clear that we should be baptised to be save.and how do we do that?it seems to me that nathan has pointed out THroUGH water. if i am not mistakin i read somewhere on this site that baptism removes original sin and repentance removes actual sin.hahaha correct me if im wrong.

these explaination clarifies every doubts i guess.as to the interpretation that water means being born physically?do i understand these correctly?i did not understand these nor i see that other passages are all talking about being born physically.but pls clarify hahahaha.

and so for my final question.What is LATIN RITE?hahahaha

 

[krakee]

This is the best that I can do which I already posted it for you: "Concerning the infallibility questions, NO! I’m not infallible and I don’t believe any one is including any of your popes. There’s nothing in Scripture that tells us to believe that! " God Bless. ED O.

Nice try, but that’s your own question in which no body claims… not even the Popes. My question is:

Are you an INFALLIBLE INTERPRETER of Scripture?

 

[jayr_unknown]

My Scripture response to that is: Mat.4:4, Jesus speaks, “It is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” Please Note, it doesn’t say by every word that comes out of the mouth of Early church Fathers. If you’ll go several posts back, you’ll find that every one of the early church fathers listed there misquoted Jesus’ statement in John 3:5, from “born of water” to “born AGAIN of water” They or anyone else are NOT permitted to change what Jesus said. My Scripture reference is Proverbs 30:6, “Do not add to His words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.” In Rev. 22:18, it’s more severe there as follows;“If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God shall add to him the plaques described in this book.” In plain English don’t fool with God’s Holy Word and they all did, as well as the Catholic Duoay/ Rhiems bible. Prior to the 16th century the printing press was not yet invented, Bibles were hand copied making them very limited. As God would have it, the very first book that came off the newly invented printing press was the Bible. People were able to read it for themselves as you now can too rather than having to rely on what the early church Fathers said. ED O.

I have also read what the early church fathers wrote.and i believe they did not misquoted it.
""Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Jhn 3:4 Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

“”" The man is asking how can a man be born anew? or in some bible i think it is written “unless a man is BORN AGAIN"is also the same as what the early church father explained”“UNLESS A MAN IS BORN AGAIN(in john 3:3)of WATER AND SPIRIT(in john3:5)he cannot SEE(in john 3:3)and ENTER(in john 3:5)the kingdom of GOD…i have included the word SEE as above because the original argument is only"unless a man is BORN AGAIN OF WATER AND SPIRIT he cannot enter the kingdom of God” but these are only WHAT IT MEANS by john3:5…and and the church fathers dont mean that these ARE WHAT THE EXACT WORDS THAT YOU SEE IN JOHN 3:5…because there is a unity in understanding that UNLESS YOU ARE BORN AGAIN…OF WATER AND SPIRIT YOU CANT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN…

 

[AwGusTeen]

All of you have stonewalled me in this thread. You really have acted like a bunch of Moonies, you should be completely ashamed of yourself…

Really, there is no need for name calling. As to your question, Protestants often like to proof text, while Catholics use the complete bible in context. There are numerous scripture verses to clearly state that Baptism is salvific. We reject none of them – do you?

 

[jayr_unknown]

I have also read what the early church fathers wrote.and i believe they did not misquoted it.
""Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Jhn 3:4 Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

“”" The man is asking how can a man be born anew? or in some bible i think it is written “unless a man is BORN AGAIN"is also the same as what the early church father explained”“UNLESS A MAN IS BORN AGAIN(in john 3:3)of WATER AND SPIRIT(in john3:5)he cannot SEE(in john 3:3)and ENTER(in john 3:5)the kingdom of GOD…i have included the word SEE as above because the original argument is only"unless a man is BORN AGAIN OF WATER AND SPIRIT he cannot enter the kingdom of God” but these are only WHAT IT MEANS by john3:5…and and the church fathers dont mean that these ARE WHAT THE EXACT WORDS THAT YOU SEE IN JOHN 3:5…because there is a unity in understanding that UNLESS YOU ARE BORN AGAIN…OF WATER AND SPIRIT YOU CANT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN…

“kingdom of God” i was thinking bout orlando bloom or something hahaha.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by krakee
Nice try, but that’s your own question in which no body claims… not even the Popes. My question is:

Are you an INFALLIBLE INTERPRETER of Scripture?

On post 912 I told you NO! I also told you that I don’t believe anyone is including your popes. What else do you want? I also add: Nice try for you to avoid what I asked you for your exergises of 1 John 3:9. it seems rather odd that you seem to have skipped over my question. So go ahead I’ll wait for your answer. If you have one? ED. O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by AwGusTeen
Protestants often like to proof text, while Catholics use the complete bible in context. There are numerous scripture verses to clearly state that Baptism is salvific. We reject none of them – do you?

Hi AwGusTeen,are you related to the early church father Augustine? I’m just curious. Can you show me some verses that we haven’t already discussed on this thread that clearly show that baptism is salvific? ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by krakee
Ed,We must find an authority. I’ll ask you again but in a different way. How do you know all the books in your Bible are actually the inspired Word of God?

Because the Bible tells me so. I must make a choice, either believe everything in the Bible or cut out what I don’t like, I chose the former.

Than you don’t believe the Bible Ed. There are billions of people who believe Matthew 16:18 -
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The same authority was give to ALL apostles per Mat 18:18-----The fact that you mention billions of people who agree doesn’t impress me. Jesus speaks in Mat 7:14, “But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a FEW find it.” By what Jesus says here it would be better for you to find the fewest people as possible for you to agee with…

Yes the Popes can and do indeed make mistake upon mistake in their daily lives but when Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail, he meant it. When we are taught, on matters of faith and morals, Jesus’ Church CANNOT be wrong. Do you believe Jesus? Catholics simply take Him at His Word.

In their (popes) daily lives they sure made plenty. The Oxford Dictionary of Popes by J.N.D. Kelly reads like a soap opera. Is this your own interpretation above ,“Jesus meant” the church CANNOT be wrong on faith and morals? I can’t find any Scripture that tells me so? Can you give at least one? Concerning the faith and morals, are you kidding? I certainly wound’t want to follow their MORALS.

Oh and yes Peter, handpicked by Jesus, denied Him 3 times but after that Jesus also asked Peter 3 times if he loved Him. And upon answering yes, Jesus commanded him 3 times to feed His sheep. That’s a perfect example of the human side of Jesus’ Church being made infallible by Jesus’ authority.
Without Him we are nothing!

Your interpretation of what’s going on here, very clearly indicates to me that you have no clue as to what’s taking place here, It has nothing to do with " infallible authority" After Peter denied Christ three times, Jesus was restoring Peter’s faith once again. Peter was being rehabilitated. Even your own Catholic Bible agrees with me. Hadn’t this episode taken place, Peter would have been a hypocrite to go out and preach about Jesus after denying Him three times.

Are you catching on?

I think it should be reversed. Are you catching on?

 

[krakee]

On post 912 I told you NO! I also told you that I don’t believe anyone is including your popes. What else do you want? I also add: Nice try for you to avoid what I asked you for your exergises of 1 John 3:9. it seems rather odd that you seem to have skipped over my question. So go ahead I’ll wait for your answer. If you have one? ED. O.

Hello Ed,

You answered that you are not infallible but that wasn’t the question. I asked about your ability to interpret Scripture. These are 2 separate things.

Once and for all Ed, are you an infallible interpreter of Scripture?

God Bless.

 

[krakee]

Ed: Nope! I don’t have a family. I’m the only one left.

Ed, my separated brother in Christ, you have a huge family. Bigger than you know. We, especially I, love you dearly. I enjoy conversing with you.

God Bless,

Matthew K (krakee)

 

[DomineUtVideum]

My Scripture response to that is: Mat.4:4, Jesus speaks, “It is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” Please Note, it doesn’t say by every word that comes out of the mouth of Early church Fathers. If you’ll go several posts back, you’ll find that every one of the early church fathers listed there misquoted Jesus’ statement in John 3:5, from “born of water” to “born AGAIN of water” They or anyone else are NOT permitted to change what Jesus said. My Scripture reference is Proverbs 30:6, “Do not add to His words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.” In Rev. 22:18, it’s more severe there as follows;“If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God shall add to him the plaques described in this book.” In plain English don’t fool with God’s Holy Word and they all did, as well as the Catholic Duoay/ Rhiems bible. Prior to the 16th century the printing press was not yet invented, Bibles were hand copied making them very limited. As God would have it, the very first book that came off the newly invented printing press was the Bible. People were able to read it for themselves as you now can too rather than having to rely on what the early church Fathers said. ED O.

There’s a problem with your exegesis of Mt 4:4, Ed. This is not a prohibition against the Catholic interpretation of Jn 3:5 which, by the way, was clearly expressed by Paul in Rom 6. Rather, Mt 4:4 recounts Our Lord’s rebuke of Satan by evoking Deut 8:3 where the sons of Israel are reminded how Yahweh fed them miraculously with manna in the desert. In contrast with the Israelites who were impatient when faced with hunger, Our Lord trustingly leaves his well-being during his trial in desert to his Father’s providence.

The invention of the printing press notwithstanding and your effort to cloud the issue by citing Mt 4:4, et al, you cannot provide the name of one ECF, theologian, or Christian prior to the 16th century who shares your minimalist view of Jn 3. On the other hand, the Catholic understanding of this passage (baptismal regeneration) is attested to in a continuous and consistent line of doctrinal unity under the protection of the Holy Spirit–from Paul and Peter through the ECFs and Doctors of the Church to the present day.

 

[panevino]

Panevino, I read your post 892. Now concerning Jn 3:6. You have your mind set that v5 means baptism because you were told that

ah, Now, i think you do need to apologies.
while of course there is always going to be a varying level of truth to what you acuse me of, I assume it applies to yourself with water in john 3:5 = physical birth.

so, yes, in that way v6 could relate to v5

thanks, i’d hoped you would see it was a reasonable variant to your link of (water/physical birth in v5) to flesh in v6

but what do you do with v7 & v8 because in v9 Nicodemus still doesn’t understand anything about baptism and that’s the end of their dialog. I told you and showed you in Scripture that “water” there is a metaphor alluding to people. But you can’t show me any Scripture that the “water” there alludes to baptism. Water there could mean swimming pool or shower, etc.

some even suggest physical birth?!..couldn’t help myself…

The only reason you think it’s baptism is because that is what you were told.

ah not this again…

You also have your mind set that some how the Spirit comes upon a person during baptism which is NOT true. That’s why you connect water with Spirit. There’s no Scripture to support that.

the below provide a spiritual flood of verses that link water/spirit/Blood.
these point to a relationship of water with spirit and faith.

1. 1 john 5:5 KJV Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
2. isa 44: 3 KJV - For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:4 And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.
3. mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
4. Mark 1:10 10As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove
5. acts 8:37 KJV And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing
6. Ex 2:10 KJV…And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.
7. Ex 30:19 KJV For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat: 20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD: 21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.
8. num 8:5 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 6 Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them. 7 And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them
9. John 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. ( i know this is not baptism, but the context is very relevant to john 3:5)
10. Ez 36:24 KJV For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them
11. jesus turns water into wine (certainly a link to blood, debatable… but undeniably a prompted thought)
12. john 19:34 KJV ut one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled

13 heb 9:19 kjv - For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

14 rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
there is a bright relationship between water and spirit / blood / faith above that I fear is blinding either you or me. ignoring when/if HS descends in water baptism - the water verses shown is vastly more relevant to the context of john 3:5 than the verses you list for people/physical birth. agreed?

 

[benedictus2]

In John chapter 3, I take the term “water” to be a metaphorical reference to the “word of God.”

This is my position for two reasons:

1) The Bible teaches that we are born again by the word of God:

James tells us that God "begat us again with the word of truth" (1:18)

Which has nothing to do with John’s “water”.

Peter describes Christians in 1 Pet 1:23 as, “having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” And then again in verse 25, he tells us that, “this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”

And this is what happens when you chop the word into bits and pieces.
Here is the same verse with the previous verse included.
Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart.You have been born anew, not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and abiding word of God

You cannot equate the above with John’s “water”

**

1. The Bible describes the word of God in many metaphorical ways - water is one.

**
But not in John 3. Water in John 3 is precisely that water.

Clearly then, when the word of God is likened unto *water *in the New Testament, it is simply being illustrated as a “cleansing” or “sanctifying” agent.

“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for her; So that he might *sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word.” *(Ephesians 5:25, 26)

Actually that is a mistranslation.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word.
Water with Word, NOT water BY the word.

Here, the “word of God” is clearly shown to be a “cleansing” and “sanctifying” agent – likened unto “the washing of water.” This “water” with which the church is “washed” is very plainly described as “the word.”

No it isn’t. As above.

This is why Jesus said: “Now ye are *clean through the word *which I have spoken unto you.” (John 15:3)

I don’t know what sort of Bible you are reading but the verse goes: You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.

The correct word is “pruned” NOT “CLEAN” because Jesus is talking about vines and the vine dresser.

Is this really what your Bible says or is this a deliberate attempt to obfuscate.

And this is why he said: “Father sanctify them by your truth – your word is truth.” (John 17:17)

John 17:17 Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.

 

[EdOsiecki]

To panevino
Do all the people in the O.T. go to hell since they were not “water” baptized? ----- Please give me your answer.

If water baptism saves you, why did Jesus go down to the prison to preach. Those spirits obviously won’t be “water” baptized? ----- Please give me your answer.

When John said he baptized with water for repentance, as well as Paul says it twice, what does "repentance " mean? Please give me your answer

When you say that “water” baptism forgives sins, Did Jesus lie when He said that He poured out His Blood to forgive sins? Please give me your answer. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted byDomineUtVideum
There’s a problem with your exegesis of Mt 4:4, Ed. This is not a prohibition against the Catholic interpretation of Jn 3:5 which, by the way, was clearly expressed by Paul in Rom 6. Rather, Mt 4:4 recounts Our Lord’s rebuke of Satan by evoking Deut 8:3 where the sons of Israel are reminded how Yahweh fed them miraculously with manna in the desert. In contrast with the Israelites who were impatient when faced with hunger, Our Lord trustingly leaves his well-being during his trial in desert to his Father’s providence.

Please! Without your interpretaion of trying to tell me what Mat 4:4 means, Am I supposed to read the Scriptures for myself according to Mat 4:4, or am I suppose to have the magesterium read them for me? And later teach me what they mean.?

The invention of the printing press notwithstanding and your effort to cloud the issue by citing Mt 4:4, et al, you cannot provide the name of one ECF, theologian, or Christian prior to the 16th century who shares your minimalist view of Jn 3.

Prior to the 16th century before the printing press was invented, God saw how the people were held in bondage. God’s timing was right on the mark. He inspired Martin Luther while at the same time the printing press was invented which made bibles readily available. As a result, by the millions people were freed from bondage as they were now able to read the Scriptures for themselves. I’m not clouding the issue I’m stateting historical facts.

On the other hand, the Catholic understanding of this passage (baptismal regeneration) is attested to in a continuous and consistent line of doctrinal unity under the protection of the Holy Spirit–from Paul and Peter through the ECFs and Doctors of the Church to the present day

You seem to imply exclusive protection of the Holy Spirit. What Spririt then guides the Protestants if not The Holy Spirit? We have Doctors of the church too and they disagree with your Doctors, as well as, your own Doctors who disagreed among themselves at the various Councils.

Perhaps the reason of your consistent line of doctrinal unity is because of the fear that was imposed upon the people as I have stated above. People believed what they were told. Exp. In 1858, Pope Pius IX ordered his papal police to take the seven-year-old son of wealthy Jewish parents from them and put him into a Catholic boarding school. A Catholic maid had, without the parents’ knowledge or consent, baptized the boy Edgar Mortara, thus allegedly making him a subject of the Roman Catholic Church. My source of imfo. PBS TV. a series on the “Secrets of the Inquistion” This incident took place only150 years ago. Could this be the reason why the RCC insists on baptismal regeneration? Power to control lives by the RRC?. ED O.

 

[panevino]

To panevino
Do all the people in the O.T. go to hell since they were not “water” baptized? ----- Please give me your answer.

if they followed the old covenant and believed in god and had sin atoned through Aaron , which included water and blood,( both playing a role in the sacrafices made) I assume they did not go to hell.

Regarding the non Jews- it is up to gods mercy.
There is that verse about more expected from…

If water baptism saves you, why did Jesus go down to the prison to preach. Those spirits obviously won’t be “water” baptized? ----- Please give me your answer.

As with theif on cross god is not bound his sacrament.
Have all people who got HS gifts had laying of hands?
Did Jesus need to touch that guys eyes to heal them, and use dirt/spittle? No
Does oil need to be used to for anointing of sick?
Was circumcision really required? Yes
Did Aaron really need to wash with water before approaching ark? Yes
Did Peter really need his feet to be washed by Jesus? Yes
Did Jesus really need to be baptised by John? Yes
Did eunach really need to be baptised by phillip?

When John said he baptized with water for repentance, as well as Paul says it twice, what does "repentance " mean? Please give me your answer

as u know I believe Christian water baptism supersedes johns water baptism

When you say that “water” baptism forgives sins, Did Jesus lie when He said that He poured out His Blood to forgive sins? Please give me your answer. ED O.

no

What do u think of my question in my last post?
Are the verses I gave regarding water and a relationship with blood and spirit slightly more relevant to John 3:5 than physical birth?

 

[EdOsiecki]

Panevino, here’s my reponse to some of your post 892:

1. num 8:5 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 6 Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them. 7 And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them

On this one if you read the next verse it said shave their bodies wash their clothes etc. Another hygiene order an has nothing to do with Holy Spirit

1. John 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. ( i know this is not baptism, but the context is very relevant to john 3:5)

Nothing to discuss here, I told you before what this meant

1. Ez 36:24 KJV For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them

I asked you before to tell me has this taken place yet? You failed to answer. This is during the 1000 year reign, God’s going to give them (Jews) the H.S. like he does with us.

1. jesus turns water into wine (certainly a link to blood, debatable… but undeniably a prompted thought)

The only thing I see here is that I wish I had some of Jesus’ made wine.

1. john 19:34 KJV ut one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled

This verse relates more to what I believe. Water was part of Jesus physical birth.

13 heb 9:19 kjv - For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

It mentions water but how does that mean Spirit?

14 rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
there is a bright relationship between water and spirit / blood / faith above that I fear is blinding either you or me. ignoring when/if HS descends in water baptism - the water verses shown is vastly more relevant to the context of john 3:5 than the verses you list for people/physical birth. agreed?

I don’t agree as you can see by what I answer above. If you Jh 3:5 meant that we are saved and receive the Holy Spirit by water baptism, there are numerous Scriptures that say otherwise.Here’s one, Heb9:22 “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Here’s another Rev 1:5, He (Jesus) freed us from our sins by His blood” These two alone contradicts your Jn3:5 theology. Bless you ED O

 

[panevino]

Hey Ed,
apologies for long posts… I think it is sometimes better to show the verses to save u looking up references.
I guess we have to agree to disagree it it’s literal water in jn 3:5.

But what u certainly have my agreement on is that
without faith(envoking blood sacrafice) water baptism bears no fruit.

U also have my agreement that in some instances that no water is ok, per catholic interpretation.

I never quite answered if hs acts in some way during water baptism.
Which was ur main query.
as u know I think Christian baptism supersedes John water baptism.
Ie more happens (ie hs)
precedent of some kind of action is shown in that OT verse ez 36:24
and in Jesus baptism. (I know u disagree)

regarding physical birth
I think u might consider the other guys interpretation of
water = word
seems alot more relevant.

I mean it’s a bit redundant to say that we must be physically born as a prerequisite. But I know u have ur reasons.
The way I see it my interpretation of literal water with faith plus being alive covers
word and physical birth interpretations.

 

[AwGusTeen]

Hi AwGusTeen,are you related to the early church father Augustine? I’m just curious.

Well, yes! We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

Can you show me some verses that we haven’t already discussed on this thread that clearly show that baptism is salvific? ED O.

…that haven’t already discussed on this thread? Probably not, as they’ve been given to you repeatedly and you have yet to accept them. However, here’s my shot at it anyway.

**Acts 2:38 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. **

Scripture plainly tells us that Baptism washes away sin; and through Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit. So, is it through baptism that we become Christians and members of the Body of Christ, or do we become Christians by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior? There is no passage in the Bible that says we become Christians by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. While it is extremely important to have a personal relationship with Jesus, that in itself does not save.

**1 Corinthians 12:13 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body [the body of Christ], whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. **

Clearly, baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ and thus is the entrance into the new covenant with God, just a circumcision was the entrance into the old covenant with God. Scripture makes this connection for us in the following:

**Colossians 2:11-12 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. **

Baptism is the entrance into the new covenant as explicitly stated in the scripture above. So, is baptism salvific as the Catholic Church teaches? Once again, let’s go to scripture.

**1 Peter 3: 20-21 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: **

Just as Noah and his family were saved by water, water baptism now saves us. There it is; explicitly stated in the Bible. Further, let’s look at Jesus’ own words in John’s gospel…

**John 3:5 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. **

I think I read in one of your previous posts where you claimed that the water spoken of here is the placental fluid inside the womb; but, scripture never says that. This position is an interpretation (I would call it tortured logic) that is not supported by the context of scripture. Further, let’s read on in context as follows a few verses later, after he finished his talk with Nicodemus…

**John 3:22 22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. **

What did Jesus do immediately after telling Nicodemus how he can be saved? He went out baptizing with water. See the context? Baptism is the context in which one must be born of water and the spirit. Further, look at all of the accounts in the synoptic gospels about Jesus’ own baptism. Jesus is baptized with water and look what happens to him when he comes up out of the water (or is sprinkled)… the spirit descends upon him – water and the spirit.

In Matthew 28:19 what did Jesus say in his final instructions to the apostles? Go therefore and make disciples of all nations getting them to accept me into their hearts as their personal lord and savior? No. It says:

**19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: **

Why is baptism given such paramount importance in Jesus’ final instructions to the apostles if it is only symbolic? Scripture simply does not support a symbolic view of baptism, nor do the Early Church Fathers…

catholic.com/library/Born_Again_in_Baptism.asp

Well, you asked for it.

Pax

Sources:
KJV
John Martignoni - biblechristiansociety.com