"Catholics Reject John Chapter Three"

[AwGusTeen]

(cont.)

AwGusTeen:

I think I read in one of your previous posts where you claimed that the water spoken of here is the placental fluid inside the womb; but, scripture never says that. This position is an interpretation (I would call it tortured logic) that is not supported by the context of scripture. Further, let’s read on in context as follows a few verses later, after he finished his talk with Nicodemus….

You know that the water mentioned here means baptism, because someone told you. But if you had no knowledge about baptism, as Nicodemus hadn’t, how would you know that there is such a rite? Nicodemus surely didn,t because in verse 9 he said ,how can that be? And that ended their dialog.

Nicodemus most certainly did know about water Baptism as he knew the scriptures much better than we do, and he surely would have known this:

Ezekiel 36:25-27 (King James Version)
25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Because of his position, he had to know about John the Baptists’ activities.

If you go to the next chapter John 4:1, it states, The pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, v2 although in fact it was NOT Jesus who baptized, but the disciples."

Given. However, this does not diminish the importance of his last instructions to the apostles:

Matthew 28:19 (King James Version)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Pax!

 

[The_Ambassador]

Yes, but when you combine this verse with the many others that have been provided you can develop a reasonable theology on baptismal regeneration.

Uh . . . not really. So far you have not established a single passage that teaches that the waters of baptism in any way causes a man to be born again.

 

[AwGusTeen]

Uh . . . not really. So far you have not established a single passage that teaches that the waters of baptism in any way causes a man to be born again.

I think it’s been quoted many times herein…

John 3:5 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Pax!

 

[izoid]

Uh . . . not really. So far you have not established a single passage that teaches that the waters of baptism in any way causes a man to be born again.

You are simply too stubborn to acknowledge them. I and many others in this thread have provided numerous verses, all of which you interpret differently, through your protestant lens. Even when Calvin and Luther interpret these verses as relating to water baptism you disagree and say they were wrong. We are at a point in our discussion that you are the soul authority and anyone who disagrees with YOU is wrong. It is futile to continue this discussion with you as you are not interested in any opinion other than your own.

 

[izoid]

I think it’s been quoted many times herein…

John 3:5 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Pax!

Thanks AwGusTeen but unfortunately Ambassador holds the true interpretation of this verse. Calvin, Luther and the Catholic Church all got it wrong while HE is the one to correctly interpret it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Uh . . . not really. So far you have not established a single passage that teaches that the waters of baptism in any way causes a man to be born again.

Water, Water Everywhere
Taken from: blog.catholic-convert.com/?p=238

1.   The first creation came from the earth which was covered with WATER and the SPIRIT hovered over the waters and from the water emerged land and man and God's first creation (Gen 1:1-2).

2.   A new humanity was started with Noah through WATER and SPIRIT. The ark went through the water and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch. Peter said this represents baptism which "now saves us" (1 Peter 3:18-21).

3.   The nation of Israel was created through the WATER of the Red Sea (baptism) with the cloud and fire of the Holy SPIRIT overhead — my, oh my, again we have water and Spirit (Ex 14).

4.   Ezekiel then describes what the New Covenant will look like and he said we will be sprinkled with clean WATER and his SPIRIT will be placed in us (Ez 36:25). Born again, I suspect.

5.   Then Jesus, right before saying you must be born of “water and the Spirit” had just gone down into the WATER of the Jordan and the SPIRIT came down and landed on his head. Again, water and the Spirit (Mt 3:16; Jn 1:29).

6.   Jesus teaches Nicodemus that he must be born again, or from above which is accomplished through “WATER and the SPIRIT.“

7.   When Jesus finished these words what was the first thing he did? He went down and baptized people in the Jordan with his disciples (Jn 4:1-2).

8.   At the first Holy Ghost Gospel Revival meeting Peter stood up at Pentecost and said, “Repent, and be baptized (WATER) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy SPIRIT“ (Acts 2:38).

9.   Peter also says “Baptism now saves you“ (1 Pet 3:18), and Paul is told “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16), and Paul writes that we are saved “by the washing of regeneration (WATER) and renewal in the Holy SPIRIT“ (Titus 3:5).

Water baptism was prefigured in the OT and brings about the forgiveness of sins and regeneration of the soul.

1 Corintians 10:1-4
“I WANT you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.”

This is an abundantly clear OT prefiguring of baptism and being saved by baptism. The Israelites were baptized into Moses by passing through the water of the Red Sea; we are baptized into Christ by passing through the water of the baptismal font. Additionally, the Israelites that left Egypt are described as follows:

Exodus 12:37-38
And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very many cattle, both flocks and herds.

From this, it is obvious that the sacrament of baptism is for men, women, and children.

 

[AwGusTeen]

Water, Water Everywhere
Taken from: blog.catholic-convert.com/?p=238

1.   The first creation came from the earth which was covered with WATER and the SPIRIT hovered over the waters and from the water emerged land and man and God's first creation (Gen 1:1-2).

2.   A new humanity was started with Noah through WATER and SPIRIT. The ark went through the water and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch. Peter said this represents baptism which "now saves us" (1 Peter 3:18-21).

3.   The nation of Israel was created through the WATER of the Red Sea (baptism) with the cloud and fire of the Holy SPIRIT overhead — my, oh my, again we have water and Spirit (Ex 14).

4.   Ezekiel then describes what the New Covenant will look like and he said we will be sprinkled with clean WATER and his SPIRIT will be placed in us (Ez 36:25). Born again, I suspect.

5.   Then Jesus, right before saying you must be born of “water and the Spirit” had just gone down into the WATER of the Jordan and the SPIRIT came down and landed on his head. Again, water and the Spirit (Mt 3:16; Jn 1:29).

6.   Jesus teaches Nicodemus that he must be born again, or from above which is accomplished through “WATER and the SPIRIT.“

7.   When Jesus finished these words what was the first thing he did? He went down and baptized people in the Jordan with his disciples (Jn 4:1-2).

8.   At the first Holy Ghost Gospel Revival meeting Peter stood up at Pentecost and said, “Repent, and be baptized (WATER) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy SPIRIT“ (Acts 2:38).

9.   Peter also says “Baptism now saves you“ (1 Pet 3:18), and Paul is told “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16), and Paul writes that we are saved “by the washing of regeneration (WATER) and renewal in the Holy SPIRIT“ (Titus 3:5).

Water baptism was prefigured in the OT and brings about the forgiveness of sins and regeneration of the soul.

1 Corintians 10:1-4
“I WANT you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.”

This is an abundantly clear OT prefiguring of baptism and being saved by baptism. The Israelites were baptized into Moses by passing through the water of the Red Sea; we are baptized into Christ by passing through the water of the baptismal font. Additionally, the Israelites that left Egypt are described as follows:

Exodus 12:37-38
And the people of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very many cattle, both flocks and herds.

From this, it is obvious that the sacrament of baptism is for men, women, and children.

Randy:
This is great stuff. However, it appears that both the title of the article, and the URL have changed. The old URL gets you to the new site, but you have to search for the article. Since the title has changed, it’s a little difficult to find via a site search. Here’s the new link:

Are you Born Again by “Water and the Spirit”?
catholic-convert.com/?p=238

Just FYI.
Thanks!

 

[The_Ambassador]

I think it’s been quoted many times herein…

John 3:5 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Pax!

Again, baptism is not mentioned in this text. You are simply making an assumption that the “water” here is referring to the ordinance of baptism. However, there is a far better case for this “water” actually being a metaphorical description of the “word of God,” as Paul elsewhere makes very clear (Ephesians 5:26). That we are born again by the word of God is another very plain truth in Scripture - (1 Pet. 1:23).

So at least my passages are explicit:

1. water is a metaphorical description of the word of God - (Eph. 5:26)
2. we are born again by that very word of God - (1 Pet. 1:23)

However you are drawing a very curious conclusion from John 3, only in order that you might justify your doctrine of baptismal regeneration. And you somehow wish to convince me of that which the Scriptures do not teach. Namely, that physical water is the cause of a spiritual birth.

 

[jack1000]

Ok now i may be new at this but this does seem a bit on the extremist side of things. I read through the posts on the first 5 pages and went to the end and read the last 5 pages but all it gave me was a headache since truly this discussion is going in circles. To me it seems as if this has lost the true point of this discussion.

 So i would like to refresh and ask; does the Catholic church believe in being baptised in Jesus Christ? Since that does seem to be the doctrinal issue here not whether John chapter 3 is accepted but it is about baptism. Since if you accept one part you must accept the whole other wise you become a hypocryt. If you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross (John 3:16 tells about why Jesus came)  to save our sins and give us life then you must accept the rest of the chapter in which Jesus says to Nicodemus that you must be born of water and spirit.

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
That says it right there you need to be baptized by water and by accepting Christ into your life.

 

[AwGusTeen]

Again, baptism is not mentioned in this text. You are simply making an assumption that the “water” here is referring to the ordinance of baptism. However, there is a far better case for this “water” actually being a metaphorical description of the “word of God,” as Paul elsewhere makes very clear (Ephesians 5:26). That we are born again by the word of God is another very plain truth in Scripture - (1 Pet. 1:23).

So at least my passages are explicit:

1. water is a metaphorical description of the word of God - (Eph. 5:26)
2. we are born again by that very word of God - (1 Pet. 1:23)

However you are drawing a very curious conclusion from John 3, only in order that you might justify your doctrine of baptismal regeneration. And you somehow wish to convince me of that which the Scriptures do not teach. Namely, that physical water is the cause of a spiritual birth.

Apparently, you’ve not been reading this thread. About three posts back I offered this as an example of water Baptism:

Matthew 3:16 (King James Version)
**16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: **and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

I don’t see how it can be any more explicit.

 

[AwGusTeen]

Ok now i may be new at this but this does seem a bit on the extremist side of things. I read through the posts on the first 5 pages and went to the end and read the last 5 pages but all it gave me was a headache since truly this discussion is going in circles. To me it seems as if this has lost the true point of this discussion.

 So i would like to refresh and ask; does the Catholic church believe in being baptised in Jesus Christ? Since that does seem to be the doctrinal issue here not whether John chapter 3 is accepted but it is about baptism. Since if you accept one part you must accept the whole other wise you become a hypocryt. If you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross (John 3:16 tells about why Jesus came)  to save our sins and give us life then you must accept the rest of the chapter in which Jesus says to Nicodemus that you must be born of water and spirit.

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
That says it right there you need to be baptized by water and by accepting Christ into your life.

Jack1000: You’ve got it spot on, and that is the Catholic position as well - baptised by water AND the spirit.

 

[benedictus2]

So at least my passages are explicit:

1. water is a metaphorical description of the word of God - (Eph. 5:26)
   **2) we are born again by that very word of God - (1 Pet. 1:**23)

Nope. You have to read the ENTIRE Chapter 5 of Ephisians and the ENTIRE Chapter 1 of 1Peter. Then you will know that the passages do not refer to the Word of God as the Water in baptism.

Citing a verse to justify your position is like being one of the blind men of Hindustan who touching one part of an elephant concluding that the elephant was a wall, a fan, a sword.

This is how you end up with this absurd exegesis.

 

[peary]

In the book of 1 Peter, he emphatically states that “BAPTISM SAVES YOU”. (1 Peter 3:21). The reason it ‘saves’ one is because it begins our process of sanctification.

Jesus told Nicodemus that unless one is born “from above” he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Nicodemus misunderstands Jesus. The Greek adverb anothen means both “from above” and “again.” Jesus means “from above” but Nicodemus misunderstands it as “again.” This misunderstanding serves as a springboard for further instruction.
Jesus then further states that one must be born “of water and of the Spirit” which is a direct reference to baptism. What Jesus is saying is that water baptism is the avenue from which the Spirit initially comes in the spiritual life.

I actually don’t see how Catholics reject John Chapter 3. It’s mostly protestants that do.

 

[benedictus2]

Because the Bible tells me so. I must make a choice, either believe everything in the Bible or cut out what I don’t like, I chose the former.

Ed ,do you even know what circular reasoning means? You cannot say that the Bible is the word of God because the Bible says so.
Let’s say your mother claims she is the queen of England. How do you verify that statement? Do you say my mother is the queen of England because she says so.

The same authority was give to ALL apostles per Mat 18:18-----

That is why we have the magisterium , the college of bishops.

The fact that you mention billions of people who agree doesn’t impress me. Jesus speaks in Mat 7:14, “But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a FEW find it.” By what Jesus says here it would be better for you to find the fewest people as possible for you to agee with…

Not quite correct. You have to determine first that the few who do agree with you actually got it right in the first place.

Your interpretation of what’s going on here, very clearly indicates to me that you have no clue as to what’s taking place here, It has nothing to do with " infallible authority" After Peter denied Christ three times, Jesus was restoring Peter’s faith once again. Peter was being rehabilitated. Even your own Catholic Bible agrees with me. Hadn’t this episode taken place, Peter would have been a hypocrite to go out and preach about Jesus after denying Him three times

The threefold affirmation yes. Because in actual fact all Christ had to do was say it only once: Peter feed my sheep and that is it. But He did this out of love for Peter so that Peter will know that Jesus has truly forgiven Him.

You can tell that Jesus has singled Peter out because He said that He has prayed for Peter. Not every one else, just Peter.

The fact remains that Jesus entrusted His sheep to Peter. So whoever is being tended and fed by Peter belongs to Christ and is Christ sheep.

 

[panevino]

I know this does not carry a lot of weight but did stumble across it today looking for something different and thought it would be good to throw in here.

The Lord was Baptized, not to be cleansed Himself, but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of Baptism.- st Ambrose of Milan

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Jack1000
Ok now i may be new at this but this does seem a bit on the extremist side of things. I read through the posts on the first 5 pages and went to the end and read the last 5 pages but all it gave me was a headache since truly this discussion is going in circles. To me it seems as if this has lost the true point of this discussion.

 So i would like to refresh and ask; does the Catholic church believe in being baptised in Jesus Christ? Since that does seem to be the doctrinal issue here not whether John chapter 3 is accepted but it is about baptism. Since if you accept one part you must accept the whole other wise you become a hypocryt. If you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross (John 3:16 tells about why Jesus came)  to save our sins and give us life then you must accept the rest of the chapter in which Jesus says to Nicodemus that you must be born of water and spirit.

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
That says it right there you need to be baptized by water and by accepting Christ into your life

Hi Jack1000, apparently you didn’t read what Ambassador just above your post presented. He said that the water that is mentioned in John 3:5, you are assuming it means baptism.------- If one gets saved by “water” baptism, why does Paul tell the jailer to believe in Jesus when he (jailer) asked him how to get saved? It’s the belief in Jesus that saves not water baptism. Water baptism shows our repentance, a turning to God. That’s what the jailer and his family did after they believed.

Eph1:13,states, “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the WORD of truth, the Gospel of your salvation. Having BELIEVED, you were marked in Him with the seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of His glory.”-------Have you noticed, one is seal by the Holy Spirit by belief in Jesus. NO WATER BAPTISM is mentioned.

John 1:12 states, " Yet to all who received him, to those who BELIEVED in His name, He gave the right to become children of God. children born not of natural descent, nor human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." ------- Again have you noticed, NO WATER BAPTISM is mentioned.

1Peter 1:23, " For you have been “born again”, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."-------- Again have you noticed, NO WATER BAPTISM is mentioned.------- James 1:18, states, “He chose to give us birth through the WORD of truth, that we might be a kind of first fruits of all he created.” Again we get a new birth by the WORD of truth, NO WATER BAPTISM is mentioned.

1John 2:12 states, " I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of His name." Again NO WATER BAPTISM is mentioned.------- Mat 26:28, Jesus states,“This is my blood of the new covenant which is pourerd out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Again NO WATER BAPTISM is mentioned.

Rev 1:5, " To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His blood,—" ------ Again NO WATER BAPTISM is mentioned. Our sins are forgiven and we are made Holy by the belief in Jesus. It can’t get any better than that and yet, without “water” baptism! ------- Rom 5:9," Since we have now been (past tense) justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him." Again NO WATER BAPTISM is mentioned.

Eph 1:7, " In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace,----." Again NO WATER BAPTISM is mentioned.----- If one gets born again and receives the Holy Spirit by “water” baptism, as Catholics think, how does one then apply what Jesus did on the cross, if it’s not by belief? ---- Think about it! You are assuming that the water mentioned in John 3:5 is “water” baptism, but there’s nothing that indicates that it is so. It’s the belief in Jesus (the gospel) that saves, the “water” baptism is linked to show repentance, a turning to God. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by panevino
I know this does not carry a lot of weight but did stumble across it today looking for something different and thought it would be good to throw in here.

The Lord was Baptized, not to be cleansed Himself, but to cleanse the waters, so that those waters, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of Baptism.- st Ambrose of Milan

Hi panevino, okay let’s analyze what he’s saying, “might have the power of Baptism” You explain to me what does that mean? ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by peary
In the book of 1 Peter, he emphatically states that “BAPTISM SAVES YOU”. (1 Peter 3:21). The reason it ‘saves’ one is because it begins our process of sanctification.

“BAPTISM SAVES YOU” read the rest that’s being said here, “not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God.” ------ “water” baptism is our way of showing repentance a pledge of turning to God. If water sanctifies, what then does Jesus’ blood do? It’s Jesus’ blood that frees us from sin, not “water” baptism. Mat 26:28 Jesus said this is my Blood poured out for the forgiveness of sins. He didn’t say I give you “water” baptism to forgive sins.

Jesus told Nicodemus that unless one is born “from above” he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Nicodemus misunderstands Jesus. The Greek adverb anothen means both “from above” and “again.” Jesus means “from above” but Nicodemus misunderstands it as “again.” This misunderstanding serves as a springboard for further instruction.
Jesus then further states that one must be born “of water and of the Spirit” which is a direct reference to baptism. What Jesus is saying is that water baptism is the avenue from which the Spirit initially comes in the spiritual life

. You are assuming that the water mentioned here is “baptism” because you were told so. If you had no knowledge of the rite of baptism, how would know that’s what being ment here? There’s nothing here that indicates baptism. ED O.

 

[panevino]

Hi panevino, okay let’s analyze what he’s saying, “might have the power of Baptism” You explain to me what does that mean? ED O.

1. Sacramental use of water with faith per Jesus words in John 3:5.
2. St Ambrose wrote this around 370+ so use of the word might in this way may carry a slightly different meaning.

 

[izoid]

“BAPTISM SAVES YOU” read the rest that’s being said here, “not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God.” ------ “water” baptism is our way of showing repentance a pledge of turning to God. If water sanctifies, what then does Jesus’ blood do? It’s Jesus’ blood that frees us from sin, not “water” baptism. Mat 26:28 Jesus said this is my Blood poured out for the forgiveness of sins. He didn’t say I give you “water” baptism to forgive sins.

Baptism is not our pledge to God, it is His pledge to us. It is the means by which we are initiated into the new covenant.

. You are assuming that the water mentioned here is “baptism” because you were told so. If you had no knowledge of the rite of baptism, how would know that’s what being ment here? There’s nothing here that indicates baptism. ED O.

This is a silly argument. To imply that Nickodemus did not know of baptism is unfounded. He would have had to be living in isolation not to have seen what was clearly going on around him. I am quite certain that he knew of water baptism.