Catholics shouldn't try to convert Jews

[Genesis315]

I don’t understand this. Doesn’t the Jewish people have the right to hear the Good News?

Yeah, but unfortunately it seems to me charity has grown cold and the fear of offense or being mislabled as a racist has taken over the charitable desire for our elder brothers to partake of all the riches of their birthright. It’s just a different spin on John 7:13. Coercion and persecution, not to mention the Nazis’ genocide should be condemned in the strongest terms. But the Church should not forget her diving founder’s call to teach all nations to observe what He taught, including His own nation, even if, like in Biblical times, the hearers are offended by the message.

 

[Vouthon]

This is not a Church document. It is a document produced by a committee without a shred of magisterial authority. And the document itself explicitly states it is neither a magisterial document nor a doctrinal document.

Lumen Gentium has said no such thing. Not a single line in any document issued by the Second Vatican Council teaches heresy. And that, my friend, is heresy.

To accuse someone of heresy is a very weighty accusation. It implies the possibility of grave sin. I would suggest that you say the poster is “sincerely in error” about a truth of the faith.

None of us are perfect. We are all limited in our understanding and “see through a glass darkly”. None of us are possessed of infallible wisdom. Even St. Augustine went awfully wrong on some points. Be charitable.

 

[Mac_Murchaidh]

To accuse someone of heresy is a very weighty accusation. It implies grave sin. I would suggest that you say the poster is “sincerely in error” about a truth of the faith.

None of us are perfect. We are all limited in our understanding and “see through a glass darkly”. None of us are possessed of infallible wisdom. Even St. Augustine went awfully wrong on some points. Be charitable.

It does not imply grave sin. It implies grave matter. Something either is or is not heresy. This is heresy. That is grave matter. It’s between God, our consciences and our confessors to judge whether there is a sin involved in our particular cases, I am not going to presume to judge another person and their culpability.

But I am going to call a spade a spade.

 

[Vouthon]

Yeah, but unfortunately it seems to me charity has grown cold and the fear of offense or being mislabled as a racist has taken over the charitable desire for our elder brothers to partake of all the riches of their birthright. It’s just a different spin on John 7:13. Coercion and persecution, not to mention the Nazis’ genocide should be condemned in the strongest terms. But the Church should not forget her diving founder’s call to teach all nations to observe what He taught, including His own nation, even if, like in Biblical times, the hearers are offended by the message.

We should proclaim the truth and bear witness to Christ before Jews as well, in the context of a dialogue and proclamation, but it is quite apparent that we are not to take part in any organised missionary activity directed towards them, since it will not be through human efforts that Israel is brought into the Church but at a time when God sees fit. The Good Friday prayer in the Liturgy states, as altered under the pontificate of Benedict: "May the Lord Our God enlighten their hearts so that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ, the savior of all mean". The emphasis is placed upon the divine agent in this endeavour, not the human one in a missionary sense.

 

[Vouthon]

It does not imply grave sin. It implies grave matter. Something either is or is not heresy. This is heresy. That is grave matter. It’s between God, our consciences and our confessors to judge whether there is a sin involved in our particular cases, I am not going to presume to judge another person and their culpability.

But I am going to call a spade a spade.

Note that prior to your post bring submitted I amended it to “implies the possibility of grave sin”, to make my meaning clearer. I see now that I was correct to do so.

 

[phil19034]

I don’t understand this. Doesn’t the Jewish people have the right to hear the Good News?

I highly recommend listing to “The Making of a Jewish Nun” CD from Lighthouse Catholic Media.

lighthousecatholicmedia.o…omoCode=104130

Mother Miriam of the Lamb of God (formerly Rosalind Moss) gives a great testimony to her life and answers some questions at the end regarding Evangelization towards the Jews.

Also - we have to remember that historically (before the New Evangelization) the Catholic Church formally evangelized two different ways:

1. via missionaries to the nations
2. via Priests via pastoral sermons & homilies and one-on-one spiritual direction.

I’m not including lay evangelization, simply institutional evangelization. The Church currently does not institutionally evangelize the Jews, but we are still called to bare witness to them, talk to them about our believes, and evangelize on a one-on-one level

Also, for Jewish Converts and for interfaith marriages between Catholics and Jews, there is the Hebrew Catholics (which have been under the watch of Cardinal Burke) - hebrewcatholic.net

God Bless!

 

[Peter_J]

And we are not supposed to do everything we can to bring the Jews to these treasures? What do they have? The Old Testament and their own religious writings, the latter of which have no divine guarantee of truth or even of common decency, as seen in another thread. I avoid getting personal on CAF so I will not say what I think of the person or persons who drew up that document.

I doubt that even “traditionalist” Catholics believe that we are supposed to “do everything we can to bring the Jews to these treasures”. (Not that I’m particularly interested in “traditionalist” Catholics; just saying.)

 

[phil19034]

Yeah, but unfortunately it seems to me charity has grown cold and the fear of offense or being mislabled as a racist has taken over the charitable desire for our elder brothers to partake of all the riches of their birthright. It’s just a different spin on John 7:13. Coercion and persecution, not to mention the Nazis’ genocide should be condemned in the strongest terms. But the Church should not forget her diving founder’s call to teach all nations to observe what He taught, including His own nation, even if, like in Biblical times, the hearers are offended by the message.

I think it’s a little more complicated that this.

Judaism is FIRST a nationality, not a religion. But it’s the only nationality you can be “expelled from” based on your religious belief.

Jews (esp. among Reform Jews) can pretty much believe in anything they want EXCEPT that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. You can be atheist and still be considered a good Jew. But if you get Baptized, the majority of Jews would consider you to have renounced your national heritage.

It would be akin to saying that if a Englishman converts to the Catholic Church from the Anglican church, then he is no longer English. To Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.; we all separate our nationality from our religion. But the Jews do not.

So to the Jews, an organized effort to convert Jews to Christianity or any other religion is an attempt at genocide, and attempt to eliminate their nationality.

This is also why some Jewish Converts (like the fundaments, protestant Jews for Christ; or the Catholic group know as Hebrew Catholics) still consider themselves Jewish. They practice many (if not all) of the Jewish customs, yet they believe that Jesus Christ if the Messiah and the Son of God. They remain ethnically Jewish while religiously Christian. However, most Jews do not accept them as Jewish, and these people are often “shunned” to one degree or another by other Jews (while Jewish atheists are welcome with open arms).

NOTE: I regards to Jewish Atheists, I knew an atheist who was a member of the Jewish Clergy (he was a Cantor). He became atheist after his daughter’s death, but still went to Temple every week and remained a Cantor until he died. May God grant him mercy.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes we should have the “hope” of conversion, of a seed being planted by our efforts in cooperation with the grace of God, and I think you’ll find I stated that above.

I agree with you use of the word “hope”. As a matter of fact, just yesterday (in a completely different discussion) I was considering whether to say that I “want” the Eastern Orthodox to come into communion with Rome … after a few minutes thought I decided that “want” conveys the wrong idea, so I instead said “hope”.

 

[JimG]

This is all very curious. Jesus was a Jew. He was the Jewish Messiah, who came to fulfill the old covenant and extend it to the entire world in the new covenant. During his life he attended temple and synagogue. He preached almost exclusively to Jews. All the Apostles were Jews, as were all the first converts to Christianity. After his ascension, the new Christians continued to attend synagogue prayers, before gathering for the Eucharist in a home or building, at least until they were no longer welcome in the synagogue. Then they had the prayers before the Eucharist.

The conversion of Gentiles raised one of the first controversies in the first decades of the Church: Did Gentile converts to Christianity have to follow the old covenant dietary laws? The answer was no; but the question arose because the new covenant arose from the old, as its fulfillment. There was a strong sense of continuity between the Old and the New, as there should be. We still have the Old Testament in our bibles.

I can’t think of any place in the Gospels where Jesus preached something like, “the old covenant is fulfilled in me, but if you prefer to stick with the old covenant, that’s fine too.”

 

[Vouthon]

I can’t think of any place in the Gospels where Jesus preached something like, “the old covenant is fulfilled in me, but if you prefer to stick with the old covenant, that’s fine too.”

And nor is this what I or anyone else is claiming.

 

[JimG]

I highly recommend listing to “The Making of a Jewish Nun” CD from Lighthouse Catholic Media.

lighthousecatholicmedia.o…omoCode=104130

Mother Miriam of the Lamb of God (formerly Rosalind Moss) gives a great testimony to her life and answers some questions at the end regarding Evangelization towards the Jews.

Rosalind Moss initially went from orhthodox Jew to Evangelical Christian and then to Catholicism. Here is a link to that story as told on the Journey Home program:

youtube.com/watch?v=-YX4d41c7Xk

 

[TMC]

This is not a Church document. It is a document produced by a committee without a shred of magisterial authority. And the document itself explicitly states it is neither a magisterial document nor a doctrinal document.

Lumen Gentium has said no such thing. Not a single line in any document issued by the Second Vatican Council teaches heresy. And that, my friend, is heresy.

You are absolutely wrong on both points. This is a Church document published by the Vatican and signed by a Cardinal. It is not heretical. Both Lumen Gentium and the Catechism teach that non-Christians, including Jews, may be saved.

 

[Brendan]

Call me a ‘nuance-freak’ but I would say that evangelization is not about “converting someone”. It is about proclaiming the truth of Christ in the sincere hope that others might be receptive to it, in a spirit of love and openness. It is not an assertive attempt to change someone’s mind. To me, proclamation not only includes dialogue but is inseparable from it. Evangelization ultimately respects the integrity of the conscience of (even) an erring person, whereas proselytism (for example) is entirely one-sided and is not concerned at all with a common search for truth, merely the imposition of the truth upon another.

What is the goal of evangelization? What are the condition by which one should consider their evangelization efforts to have been successful?

 

[Mac_Murchaidh]

You are absolutely wrong on both points. This is a Church document published by the Vatican and signed by a Cardinal.

“The text is not a magisterial document or doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church, but is a reflection prepared by the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews on current theological questions that have developed since the Second Vatican Council.”

Thus saith the document itself.

It is not heretical.

To state that the Old Covenant is still salvific for the Jews is heretical. To say that implicit faith is all that is necessary for salvation is heretical.

Both Lumen Gentium and the Catechism teach that non-Christians, including Jews, may be saved.

Of course non-Christians and Jews can be saved! But not as non-Christians or Jews. Lumen Gentium, and Ad Gentes, and the other documents of the Council nowhere states that those who die without faith and baptism can be saved. They simply say that the salvation of those whom are not visible members of the Church can be accomplished in ways known only to God. However that does not then mean that they are absolved from the necessary means of attaining to salvation as the same documents reiterate Christ’s teachings on the necessity of baptism and faith. I might have a Jewish friend who is one day hit by a car. He is ministered to at his death by a Catholic priest, whom Providence had placed there at that time. The Jewish friend converts, but this is unknown to all and the priest goes about his business. The new Christian is buried as a Jew, and was never visibly recognised as a part of the Church.

There is ambiguous language about hoping God may resort to extraordinary means. It’s true, God is not bound to act through the ordinary means. But fundamentally the Church cannot define on a hypothetical situation, nor are we permitted to say such and such a person was delivered by extraordinary means. You can have pious hope to console you, but you can never state categorically that such and such an hypothetical event happened in such and such a person’s case.

 

[Peebo]

You are absolutely wrong on both points. This is a Church document published by the Vatican and signed by a Cardinal. It is not heretical. Both Lumen Gentium and the Catechism teach that non-Christians, including Jews, may be saved.

Correct…excerpt from Lumen Gentium15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.* Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

 

[TMC]

“The text is not a magisterial document or doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church, but is a reflection prepared by the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews on current theological questions that have developed since the Second Vatican Council.”

Thus saith the document itself.

Yes. It is not doctrinal, but it is certainly a Church document. Maybe we have a different view of what a Church document is. Not every document that the Church issues is magisterial teaching.

To state that the Old Covenant is still salvific for the Jews is heretical. To say that implicit faith is all that is necessary for salvation is heretical.

When did I say any of those things? I said that the Church teaches that Jews can be saved; which it does.

Of course non-Christians and Jews can be saved! But not as non-Christians or Jews. Lumen Gentium, and Ad Gentes, and the other documents of the Council nowhere states that those who die without faith and baptism can be saved. They simply say that the salvation of those whom are not visible members of the Church can be accomplished in ways known only to God. However that does not then mean that they are absolved from the necessary means of attaining to salvation as the same documents reiterate Christ’s teachings on the necessity of baptism and faith. I might have a Jewish friend who is one day hit by a car. He is ministered to at his death by a Catholic priest, whom Providence had placed there at that time. The Jewish friend converts, but this is unknown to all and the priest goes about his business. The new Christian is buried as a Jew, and was never visibly recognised as a part of the Church.

The Church teaches that non-Christians, including Jews, can be saved without confessing Christ in this life. The Church admits that the mechanism for accomplishing this is a mystery known to God but not to us.

There is ambiguous language about hoping God may resort to extraordinary means. It’s true, God is not bound to act through the ordinary means. But fundamentally the Church cannot define on a hypothetical situation, nor are we permitted to say such and such a person was delivered by extraordinary means. You can have pious hope to console you, but you can never state categorically that such and such an hypothetical event happened in such and such a person’s case.

Well, you can say that the Church is not allowed to teach about what God can do with His omnipotent power and boundless mercy, but the Church apparently disagrees.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Rosalind Moss initially went from orhthodox Jew to Evangelical Christian and then to Catholicism. Here is a link to that story as told on the Journey Home program:

youtube.com/watch?v=-YX4d41c7Xk

And at the same time, I have dear friends who have been called to embrace Judaism. One is a priest, another a pastor from the reformed tradition, and many lay Christians. There is an honor to God’s special covenant with the Jews.

 

[JimG]

And at the same time, I have dear friends who have been called to embrace Judaism. One is a priest, another a pastor from the reformed tradition, and many lay Christians. There is an honor to God’s special covenant with the Jews.

Of course there is. And what was the point of the covenant except to prepare the way for the Messiah?

 

[Catholic_Press]

A new Vatican document teaches that Catholics should not actively seek the conversion of Jews. “The Gifts and the Calling of God are Irrevocable,” released on December 10 by the …

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