Catholics that say they'd never have any biological children for this reason

[maryjk]

But the Church, and by association, God must be consulted. You may not need to go to Father so and so to do it but you must do it.

Please read more carefully.** I did not say they must consult a priest.** But they must consult the Church.

Odd that you are pushing back so hard on such an easy piece of advice.

Seems that you think that although I can choose the priest, I must talk to a priest.

Why am I pushing back on this? Wrong is wrong. And I find your advice wrong and not in line with the Catechism.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Seems that you think that although I can choose the priest, I must talk to a priest.

Why am I pushing back on this? Wrong is wrong. And I find your advice wrong and not in line with the Catechism.

Mary. I’ll attempt to explain one more time.
One does not have to consult a PRIEST. One MUST consult the Church to inform their consciences.
I mentioned nothing of the catechism, or anything. The advice was given that this person should talk to a priest. That is VERY good advice.
Perhaps you could advise some other ways a couple could consult the Church that does not include a priest.
You could use the Catechism, Bible, Church fathers, etc. But, and this is my point, the Church MUST be involved in the decision.

More people should seek out spiritual direction, and going around harping on weather it has to be a priest or not is not only counter-productive but also can be misunderstood that a priest has no business in moral decision making. That is wrong.

Since your assertion is that I am wrong and you seem to keep wanting to harp on such a trivial point. I ask you to show me where I am wrong.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But the Church, and by association, God must be consulted. You may not need to go to Father so and so to do it but you must do it.

How about this to clarify your misunderstanding. The Church must be consulted. One way to do that is through a good priest or spiritual adviser, or an adequate education of Church theology on a matter.

 

[nodito]

How about this to clarify your misunderstanding. The Church must be consulted. One way to do that is through a good priest or spiritual adviser, or an adequate education of Church theology on a matter.

Would you agree that another way to consult “The Church” is to pray with your spouse in the privacy of your bedroom? Or must it involve a third party, someone besides God?

 

[maryjk]

Mary. I’ll attempt to explain one more time.
One does not have to consult a PRIEST. One MUST consult the Church to inform their consciences.
I mentioned nothing of the catechism, or anything. The advice was given that this person should talk to a priest. That is VERY good advice.
Perhaps you could advise some other ways a couple could consult the Church that does not include a priest.
You could use the Catechism, Bible, Church fathers, etc. But, and this is my point, the Church MUST be involved in the decision.

More people should seek out spiritual direction, and going around harping on weather it has to be a priest or not is not only counter-productive but also can be misunderstood that a priest has no business in moral decision making. That is wrong.

Since your assertion is that I am wrong and you seem to keep wanting to harp on such a trivial point. I ask you to show me where I am wrong.

My first comment was that a priest didn’t need to be consulted.

I’m not against a priest being consulted. I am against the thought that a priest MUST be consulted.

Rather than agree with me. You continued to harp on consulting “the Church” and by association, God. Which is funny. Because I needed to consult God first, through prayer.

So, it comes down to:

IF a couple would like to speak to a priest about the use of NFP, they are welcome to do so. If they want to talk to other families that have used it, that is fine too. If they want to read about what the Church fathers had to say about it? No problem. Consult a Spiritual advisor? Again, no problem.

But they don’t have to do any of those. They can, through conversation with each other and prayer, come to the conclusion that they must use NFP.

I have no problem with a priest making moral decisions. I DO have a problem with a priest making medical ones.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My first comment was that a priest didn’t need to be consulted.

Rather than agree with me. You continued to harp on consulting “the Church” and by association, God. Which is funny. Because I needed to consult God first, through prayer.

So, it comes down to:

IF a couple would like to speak to a priest about the use of NFP, they are welcome to do so. If they want to talk to other families that have used it, that is fine too. If they want to read about what the Church fathers had to say about it? No problem. Consult a Spiritual advisor? Again, no problem.

But they don’t have to do any of those. They can, through conversation with each other and prayer, come to the conclusion that they must use NFP.

I have no problem with a priest making moral decisions. I DO have a problem with a priest making medical ones.

What if the priest is a doctor?

I think it odd that you allow a doctor to make spiritual decisions but not the other way around. Especially given your spiritual life is infinitely more important than your physical life.

My only point is that the Church must be consulted. I would hope you agree.
But lets move on as this is getting semanitcal. You misunderstood what I said. Fine.I tried to explain and clarify you seemed intent on debating.

 

[petra22]

tha’ts exactly what people have told me in regards to myself and my disability. followed up by it would have been more merciful if my parents had aborted me

That’s what they told my husband too. He wasn’t supposed to live past 12 and with debilitating disabilities. But, we have had 37+ years together and have accomplished many more things than people ever thought. Have two daughters and two grandsons…
People, we just don’t know and is it fair to play god?

 

[petra22]

My first comment was that a priest didn’t need to be consulted.

Rather than agree with me. You continued to harp on consulting “the Church” and by association, God. Which is funny. Because I needed to consult God first, through prayer.

So, it comes down to:

IF a couple would like to speak to a priest about the use of NFP, they are welcome to do so. If they want to talk to other families that have used it, that is fine too. If they want to read about what the Church fathers had to say about it? No problem. Consult a Spiritual advisor? Again, no problem.

But they don’t have to do any of those. They can, through conversation with each other and prayer, come to the conclusion that they must use NFP.

I have no problem with a priest making moral decisions. I DO have a problem with a priest making medical ones.

I think the (name removed by moderator)ut of the priest in dealing with other types of birth control is just to inform the couple of the truth about those other types of birth control. The doctors and the drug maker play with words, but birth control many times in a woman’s reproductive life causes a fertilized egg to be aborted. Some doctors and the drug companies don’t like to say it that way. They say the egg and the sperm don’t meet and so there is no fertilized egg. What they forget to mention is the breakthrough ovulations that do occur and do get fertilized. The priest, I think would just want the couple to realize the truth in medicine…
And in that case the medical decision COULD be a moral one.

 

[maryjk]

What if the priest is a doctor?

Then that would be a different story. My pastor is an accountant. The associate pastor is a chemical engineer.

I think it odd that you allow a doctor to make spiritual decisions but not the other way around. Especially given your spiritual life is infinitely more important than your physical life.

I find it odd that you consider my medical well-being to be spiritual.

When I have a headache I take a Tylenol. I don’t call my pastor to see what to take. If I break my arm, the doctor orders the x-ray and puts the cast on, not my priest. And if I have a serious medical condition, I discuss it with my doctor, not my priest. And if I have an issue that means I can’t carry a baby, my doctor does the exam and tells me what is wrong. My priest? Doesn’t have the medical background to diagnose that.

My only point is that the Church must be consulted. I would hope you agree.
But lets move on as this is getting semanitcal. You misunderstood what I said. Fine.I tried to explain and clarify you seemed intent on debating.

Could you respond to nodito’s post?

Would you agree that another way to consult “The Church” is to pray with your spouse in the privacy of your bedroom? Or must it involve a third party, someone besides God?

 

[SamH]

Her reason for not being open to children is flawed and worldly. Every conception has the risk of birth defects or complications. The important thing is to keep the eternal perspective: you are raising a soul up to glorify God and hopefully live with Him in Heaven forever by living a saintly life and cooperating with Grace here on earth.

Suffering is inevitable in this life. The goal is not to avoid it, but to face it head on with confidence in god’s grace. That’s what Christ did when faced with the Cross.

You forget one thing in your consideration - Christ was given a choice. Inflicting a horrible disease on an infant for your own selfish desires is hardly Christ like.

Our older son suffers horribly from Doose Syndrome. He has spent years attempting to regain skills that he had as 3 year old. His younger brother is in perfect health. The doctors can not tell us why one has epilepsy and the other does not - for that reason we chose not to have more biological children as the next child could easily be suffer even more than our oldest son has. We had always wanted a large family so now we are foster parents and are in the process of adopting two children that no one wanted.

Are we sinning by taking in children that no one else will take or are we carrying out God’s plan?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Would you agree that another way to consult “The Church” is to pray with your spouse in the privacy of your bedroom? Or must it involve a third party, someone besides God?

Of course I would concede this if the couple was well informed ABOUT the Church. Too many times protestant and even Catholic couples say. “Gee my spouse and I prayed about and we feel like God is ok with us using condoms.” I am a little nervous that so many people have such a distrust of the Church that they cannot seek Her out for important issues. That is what God, Jesus himself put the Church here for!! But when someone suggests that we seek the Church out in these matters people try to find every way they can to avoid it.

If a couple felt the best spiritual guidance, the best tool for them to use was their own complete knowledge of the faith in this matter then sure, go to your inner room and pray about it. If a couple is in a situation where for whatever reason the Church is silenced and unable to deal with morality of procreation then sure, a couple should seek their own council. But I will submit to you that it is similar to why we go to a priest for confession rather than just handle it ourselves. It gives a level of objectivity that we may not have personally. Especially about issues that involve life, death, and hormones.

I would also like to address your concept of “the church”

What Church are you speaking of? The Church of me? Because that is what you describe and it sounds radically protestant.
God’s Church is the Holy Catholic and apostolic one you experience at the Mass. It is to Her that Jesus gave the keys. It is quite mistaken to think those keys are the possession of a married couple that prays by themselves. And that church which you allude to could never be the One True Church because it would be a different Church in each bedroom in the world.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

:shrug:I find it odd that you consider my medical well-being to be spiritual.

When I have a headache I take a Tylenol. I don’t call my pastor to see what to take. If I break my arm, the doctor orders the x-ray and puts the cast on, not my priest. And if I have a serious medical condition, I discuss it with my doctor, not my priest. And if I have an issue that means I can’t carry a baby, my doctor does the exam and tells me what is wrong. My priest? Doesn’t have the medical background to diagnose that.

You are reading into my answers things that are not there and that may touch you on an emotional level. But this is a red herring argument.

We all could come up with personal antedotes.

Here is mine.

Our Bishop is also a priest. He also holds a PHD in medical sciences and his background is in Catholic Healthcare. He would be an excellent source for a couple to go to. More couples should. I know for a fact that he would welcome his flock and make time for someone such as the OP’s sister or yourself. Shockingly, I’ll bet very few people would even think to seek out such council.

But if you wish I can put you in touch with him. Despite what you think. Your medical well being and spiritual well being are linked and always will be.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Then that would be a different story. My pastor is an accountant. The associate pastor is a chemical engineer. :shrug:I find it odd that you consider my medical well-being to be spiritual.

When I have a headache I take a Tylenol. I don’t call my pastor to see what to take. If I break my arm, the doctor orders the x-ray and puts the cast on, not my priest. And if I have a serious medical condition, I discuss it with my doctor, not my priest. And if I have an issue that means I can’t carry a baby, my doctor does the exam and tells me what is wrong. My priest? Doesn’t have the medical background to diagnose that.
Could you respond to nodito’s post?

Since you think medical and spiritual issues are mutually exclusive. How would you advise in the following hypothetical situation.

A Secular Doctor tells you that having children is dangerous and you need to go on Birth Control. He tells you it is ok to use a condom, the pill or anything else but not NFP. It is not “medical” enough in his opinion.
He takes out his pad and writes a scrip for the Pill. (This is very very common in Dr Offices) And assures you that this is the normal medical way to deal with your issues.

What do you do?

 

[maryjk]

You are reading into my answers things that are not there and that may touch you on an emotional level. But this is a red herring argument.

We all could come up with personal antedotes.

Here is mine.

Our Bishop is also a priest. He also holds a PHD in medical sciences and his background is in Catholic Healthcare. He would be an excellent source for a couple to go to. More couples should. I know for a fact that he would welcome his flock and make time for someone such as the OP’s sister or yourself. Shockingly, I’ll bet very few people would even think to seek out such council.

But if you wish I can put you in touch with him. Despite what you think. Your medical well being and spiritual well being are linked and always will be.

Of course your bishop/priest would be a good person to talk to about medical conditions. But that doesn’t mean that ALL priests would be that way. Which is probably why very few couples go to their priest to talk about medical conditions.

So anecdotal stories aside, most Catholics do not find themselves under the guidance of a priest that is also a doctor. Most have two different people that fill those roles.

The best thing to do is to have a doctor that is either a well informed Catholic or to be a well informed Catholic themselves.

Or they could be like me. Inform themselves about Catholicism AND have well informed Catholic doctors.

 

[maryjk]

Since you think medical and spiritual issues are mutually exclusive. How would you advise in the following hypothetical situation.

A Secular Doctor tells you that having children is dangerous and you need to go on Birth Control. He tells you it is ok to use a condom, the pill or anything else but not NFP. It is not “medical” enough in his opinion.
He takes out his pad and writes a scrip for the Pill. (This is very very common in Dr Offices) And assures you that this is the normal medical way to deal with your issues.

What do you do?

First no where did I say that they are mutually exclusive. (Remember your statement about reading things that aren’t there? )

What I said was,

I find it odd that you consider my medical well-being to be spiritual.

When I have a headache I take a Tylenol. I don’t call my pastor to see what to take. If I break my arm, the doctor orders the x-ray and puts the cast on, not my priest. And if I have a serious medical condition, I discuss it with my doctor, not my priest. And if I have an issue that means I can’t carry a baby, my doctor does the exam and tells me what is wrong. My priest? Doesn’t have the medical background to diagnose that.

I can also say, that I do not believe in faith healing and that I believe that God gave us intelligent people to be doctors to help us get and stay healthy.

Of course that doesn’t mean that I have to agree to sin if a doctor recommends it. So I would no more take a script for ABC any more than I would have an affair regardless if my doctor said it was a good idea.

So, I would not go to my priest to diagnose a medical problem and I would not accept my doctor’s recommendation to sin. It seems pretty straightforward to me.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

First no where did I say that they are mutually exclusive. (Remember your statement about reading things that aren’t there? )

What I said was,

I can also say, that I do not believe in faith healing and that I believe that God gave us intelligent people to be doctors to help us get and stay healthy.

Of course that doesn’t mean that I have to agree to sin if a doctor recommends it. So I would no more take a script for ABC any more than I would have an affair regardless if my doctor said it was a good idea.

So, I would not go to my priest to diagnose a medical problem and I would not accept my doctor’s recommendation to sin. It seems pretty straightforward to me.

Why are we talking about faith healing. By bringing that up you can insinuate that that is the position I am arguing.

So you would not take a medical doctors script because of a spiritual belief? Interesting.

 

[maryjk]

Why are we talking about faith healing. By bringing that up you can insinuate that that is the position I am arguing.

So you would not take a medical doctors script because of a spiritual belief? Interesting.

I have no problem not filling a script for ABC. Or telling the doctor that I don’t want one. But I also believe that I don’t have to get permission from the Church to use NFP. I do not see a problem in holding both of those beliefs.

But somehow you do.

Why? Can’t I be knowledgeable about Church teaching on birth control? Or is that something only priests and spiritual directors can understand? Or is it that I can’t stand up to a doctor without a priest standing up behind me?

(All of this is hypothetical. My GYN is a Catholic, NFP only doctor. She wouldn’t write a script for ABC for anyone.)

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I have no problem not filling a script for ABC. Or telling the doctor that I don’t want one. But I also believe that I don’t have to get permission from the Church to use NFP. I do not see a problem in holding both of those beliefs.

But somehow you do.

Why? Can’t I be knowledgeable about Church teaching on birth control? Or is that something only priests and spiritual directors can understand? Or is it that I can’t stand up to a doctor without a priest standing up behind me?

(All of this is hypothetical. My GYN is a Catholic, NFP only doctor. She wouldn’t write a script for ABC for anyone.)

You are backtracking. At this point I am not sure what the fruit of this discussion is at all.
You are trying to make the point that one need not seek council of anyone other than a doctor. Your own answer belies your contention as spiritual and medical advice conflicts in the hypothetical. You chose the spiritual. Now who is sounding like the “faith healer”
ABC is prescribed by the medical world in a overwhelming number of circumstances. You stated you would not follow the overwhelming medical advice because of sin, a concept that is spiritual in nature and is informed by the Church and Her priests. Hmmm.
It sounds to me like we agree for the most part. Medical advice and procreation concepts HAVE to be informed to couples by the Church. Either through personal counseling of priests, proper chatechisis or papal encyclicals interpreted through the lens of Catholic Theology etc. What a long way we had to travel just to state something simple.

Sorry to really get into the semantics but in especially these issues it is dangerous to give an air of authority to the medical industry that does not propose to answer to the same God you and I pray to.

Medical Doctors are knowledgeable in Medicine as Clerics are knowledgeable in The Church. When you have issues such as this that expand into both categories, both categories need to be explored by the couple.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

(All of this is hypothetical. My GYN is a Catholic, NFP only doctor. She wouldn’t write a script for ABC for anyone.)

This is a good thing and I would hope that more Catholic couples had access to this situation. You are in the lucky minority.

But it is also important to note that the Church has not given moral authority to a Catholic NFP only doctor.
Doctors are not the Magesterium. Geesh, imagine if they were!!! Though some do have a God complex.

I’m not saying that your doctor is not 100% in line with the Church but rather to point out that ultimate moral authority comes from God himself through His Church.

Just like throwing the catechism at a newly wed couple and saying “here you go” is not sufficient neither is putting ones faith in anything apart from the Church. The Bible, the CCC and all of Her teachings must be interpreted by the Church in understanding of the Church, not in understanding of individuals.

 

[thewanderer]

I have no problem not filling a script for ABC. Or telling the doctor that I don’t want one. But I also believe that I don’t have to get permission from the Church to use NFP. I do not see a problem in holding both of those beliefs.

But somehow you do.

I hope I’m not intruding, but I think what he’s trying to say is not that you have to consult a priest, but that your decision must be based on Church teaching. So I think he would be perfectly fine with a couple who has carefully formed their conscience according to Church teaching (Humanae Vitae etc) spending time in prayer to discern whether or not they had a good reason to avoid deciding to avoid children on their own without consulting a priest. I think you two actually agree and are speaking past each other. But then again I could be mistaken.