Catholics VS Health Care in America: Morally Embarrassing

[dmelosi]

Actually there is no such act called “Obama Care”, what was passed in 2010 was the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

The Act provides far more benefit to public health than could ever be discussed in this thread, but there are parts of the act which are not good. What is not good in this legislation would be corrected by reversing Roe v. Wade, and then a law that would prevent the use of birth control.

How about legislation that would make lust, fortification, adultery, or lying criminal offences? Would wana’ be president Gingrich promote such laws? Until morality changes for the better, laws will not stop abortion, any more than laws eradicate sin.

Many people have never taken the time to find out how the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will benefit Americans. All they know is that their political team doesn’t like it, so it must be bad. There has been many millions spent in promoting hatred of Obama, and this hatred can then be transferred to anything, just by name association, in this case “Obama Care”. There is nothing new in this propaganda technique.

Your assertion that, “Obama argued in front of the IL senate that if the original intent was to
abort that it should be ok to withhold medical care from a born healthy baby and allow it to die”, is not true. There has never been a day that Obama, in front of the IL senate, or anywhere else, made such an absurd argument. Even in Illinois murder is illegal. This false claim originated on Fox News with right-wing activist Bill Bennett, Sean Hannity and Jerome Corsi. If untruth is repeated often enough, it is believed.

“All this was inspired by the principle - which is quite true in itself - that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.” Hitler, Mein Kampf

US Office of Strategic Services report (p.51) on Hitler’s psychological profile-
His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never
concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives
(compromise); never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for
everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you
repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

I’m certain, that at the root of the political opposition to national health care, there is no concern for the unborn, but rather greed and total lack of empathy for humanity.

Obama most certainly did argue the infants born alive act. I have the complete transcript.
You can listen to the argument here…jillstanek.com/archives/2008/02/links_to_barack.html

If you would like the video and transcripts of the argument, I will post that as well.

Does that make a difference on how you feel about him?

 

[cargau]

I’m certain, that at the root of the political opposition to national health care, there is no concern for the unborn, but rather greed and total lack of empathy for humanity.

That is an incredibly arrogant statement. I do oppose Obamacare because I believe that it is bad for our country and its people. Obamacare or whatever you want to call it, is unsustainable. Look at Romney care in Mass.

I am all for health care reform. Health care costs have gotten out of hand. But legislators (the dems who pushed this legislation through without even reading it) never considered the real issues keeping health care unavailable to many.

Do not presume to tell me what I think about my fellow man. Do not infer that if I don’t follow the president I am uncaring. You don’t know me or others who sensibly oppose this very destructive piece of legislation

 

[MindOverMatter2]

That is an incredibly arrogant statement. I do oppose Obamacare because I believe that it is bad for our country and its people. Obamacare or whatever you want to call it, is unsustainable. Look at Romney care in Mass.

I am all for health care reform. Health care costs have gotten out of hand. But legislators (the dems who pushed this legislation through without even reading it) never considered the real issues keeping health care unavailable to many.

Do not presume to tell me what I think about my fellow man. Do not infer that if I don’t follow the president I am uncaring. You don’t know me or others who sensibly oppose this very destructive piece of legislation

Would you let your “son” die on the floor if he didn’t have enough to pay you for treatement?

 

[cargau]

Would you let your “son” die on the floor if he didn’t have enough to pay you for treatement?

Of course not. I would find a way to get the care he needs because I love him. I wouldn’t want Obama to decide if he should live or die. I don’t trust Obama and his cronies to love my son like I do…

 

[jannes]

I repeat: we did not become the world’s preeminent military and economic power by following the Sermon on the Mount.

Who says you are the worlds most emminent economic and military power ? have you been following the news lately ?

 

[JackQ]

…nor did the Roman Empire… and there is not much left of then either.

My point is that people are surprised by the inhumanity of the U.S. and the inhumanity of its citizens to one another, and I just want to make it understood that we are a callous and brutal people. The kindest among us are just like ordinary people in other places. That’s hard to see from the inside, so I like to bring it up from time to time.

 

[JackQ]

Who says you are the worlds most emminent economic and military power ? have you been following the news lately ?

I don’t know what you mean, but I’ll take your word for it. That’s not the point of my post.

 

[Tenofovir]

Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A31-46&version=NIV

If there are people who are suffering because they have no healthcare (whatever the reason), and people ignore them expecting charities to look after them, but charities are voluntary and don’t always help everyone or lack the organisation level of governments, I think it’s fair to say such people may be getting caught here. Of course only God knows our intentions. But if our intentions are greedy (pay less tax, tax which could pay for these lesser ones’ care) or vindictive (serves those drunks and drug addicts right) I think we may be in trouble. Anyway everyone has their conscience and everyone goes to confession before God.

 

[dmelosi]

Actually there is no such act called “Obama Care”, what was passed in 2010 was the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

The Act provides far more benefit to public health than could ever be discussed in this thread, but there are parts of the act which are not good. What is not good in this legislation would be corrected by reversing Roe v. Wade, and then a law that would prevent the use of birth control.

How about legislation that would make lust, fortification, adultery, or lying criminal offences? Would wana’ be president Gingrich promote such laws? Until morality changes for the better, laws will not stop abortion, any more than laws eradicate sin.

Many people have never taken the time to find out how the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will benefit Americans. All they know is that their political team doesn’t like it, so it must be bad. There has been many millions spent in promoting hatred of Obama, and this hatred can then be transferred to anything, just by name association, in this case “Obama Care”. There is nothing new in this propaganda technique.

Your assertion that, “Obama argued in front of the IL senate that if the original intent was to
abort that it should be ok to withhold medical care from a born healthy baby and allow it to die”, is not true. There has never been a day that Obama, in front of the IL senate, or anywhere else, made such an absurd argument. Even in Illinois murder is illegal. This false claim originated on Fox News with right-wing activist Bill Bennett, Sean Hannity and Jerome Corsi. If untruth is repeated often enough, it is believed.

“All this was inspired by the principle - which is quite true in itself - that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.” Hitler, Mein Kampf

US Office of Strategic Services report (p.51) on Hitler’s psychological profile-
His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never
concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives
(compromise); never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for
everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you
repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

I’m certain, that at the root of the political opposition to national health care, there is no concern for the unborn, but rather greed and total lack of empathy for humanity.

Perhaps you want a more recent link about the infants born alive act, for the most pro abortion president who is a part of the most pro abortion political party in history.

cnsnews.com/news/article/obama-defends-roe-v-wade-way-our-daughters-have-same-chance-sons-fulfill-their-dreams

 

[pismopal]

The infant mortality rate is the number of deaths of infants under one year of age per 1,000 live births. This rate is often used as an indicator of the quality of health available in a country.

There is about 220 countries in the world. Realize the US ranks about 46 in infant mortality. Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate then the US. There are countries you have never heard of, with lower infant mortality rates than the US.

About 15 years ago I had laser surgery to correct near sightedness, a very common procedure today. At that time, if I were to do the procedure in the US, I could only have one eye corrected, and 6 months later the other, as it was still considered an experimental procedure here. Or I could have gone to Canada or Europe, where they had been using laser correction for 20 years prior. During those days the best the US had to offer its citizens was Radial keratotomy, primitive by European Standards.

There is much right wing propaganda out there that would have one believe that the American medical system is second to none. It’s not, and we pay far more for our medical care than citizens of other countries. For the money we spend, we should expect far more.

To the extent that we provide adequate health care to all of our population, speaks to our nation’s morality and compassion for our fellow man.

I absolutely disagree that it is “right wing propaganda” that causes our people to believe we have a good…the best medical practitioners. The system…in terms of cost and affordability started going off the rails when having insurance for every single medical service…Office call…medicine…xrays…everything. I have lived through the derailing and there is no doubt in my mind that “insurance” screwed it up. Rates started climbing as more and more people began to be covered for every little hang nail. Since people are covered they have no idea what things cost…what the insurance company is being billed…what do they care? hey I’m insured!. When the consumer is detached from the cost of things…guess what?? The cost of medicine goes up…insurance premiums go up…medicine goes up. There is a huge difference between what is a good medical system in terms of the practise of medicine and the costs attached. You are obviously on the left and I am a conservative. I do not think that my neighbors should pay my medical bills by funneling money through the federal pig trough. I raised a large family without asking you to share my expenses…please do me a favor and pay your own way…I am retired.
And demanding that government be responsible for what good Christians should be doing is not charity it is collectivism…and a pox on that.
Infant mortality can have causes not related to the overall quality of medical care available and it is used as a gauge by those who find it convenient in order to make a case. You are using it to make the case that Cuba has better medical care than the US. Is this why Castro left Cuba for cancer treatment? I am actually amused that anyone would use Cuba as an example of how well socialism/communism works.

 

[cargau]

My point is that people are surprised by the inhumanity of the U.S. and the inhumanity of its citizens to one another, and I just want to make it understood that we are a callous and brutal people. The kindest among us are just like ordinary people in other places. That’s hard to see from the inside, so I like to bring it up from time to time.

This is so obnoxious. The United States is not perfect by any means, but we are the most benevolent nation in the history of the world. No other country has done more to aid others in need than America. So, when I see generalities like what I have quoted above, I realize that there is no substance, just anger…

 

[MindOverMatter2]

This is so obnoxious. The United States is not perfect by any means, but we are the most benevolent nation in the history of the world.

Hiroshima, native Americans, and many needless wars based on materialism and greed.

You’re living in a dream world.

 

[dmelosi]

Hiroshima, native Americans, and many needless wars based on materialism and greed.

You’re living in a dream world.

Just curious why you believe the U.S. were in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars?

 

[pismopal]

Hiroshima, native Americans, and many needless wars based on materialism and greed.

You’re living in a dream world.

The truth about ending the Pacific war with nuclear weapons is that it succeeded in saving lives not the other way around. Estimates of casualties in the planned invasion of Japan, based on a model derived from the Okinawa campaign, ranged from 500,000 to a million. Defeating the Japanese after such horrific loses would have made normalizing relations with the Japanese far more difficult and lengthy and may have prevented efforts by the allies to restore Japan’s economy. A death is a death…sadly what counts are the numbers not how they died. It is your opinion of Hiroshima that is knee jerk…dreaming.
Native Americans were not treated well by us in defeat… that is a given. How they treated each other was not a bed time story either. The class of cultures and the drive of europeans to find land to live on…raise families and survive, can hardly be described as greed and materialism…except by a left wing college professor. And the fact that the group we call “Native Americans” immigrated from the east across a land bridge and were probably not welcomed by the humans they found already there, is different from european migration only in numbers.
Wars are indeed caused by greed and power but whose?

 

[JackQ]

This is so obnoxious. The United States is not perfect by any means, but we are the most benevolent nation in the history of the world. No other country has done more to aid others in need than America. So, when I see generalities like what I have quoted above, I realize that there is no substance, just anger…

Your disposition is proof of what I’m saying.

 

[someperson555]

Why would any Catholic be Against Free Health Care?

Am i the only Catholic that finds this idea Morally Embarrassing?

I agree 100%. the main reason most american so called Catholics are against free healthcare is because they are not really catholics, rather their religion is “conservative”. ive encountered so many of these types of “american catholics” before. they are usually just older well off middle class people who wacth the O’ reillly factor every night. they only follow church teaching as far as it agrees with their bourgeousie american lifestyle. what i noticed is that they tend to ignore Christ’s teachings that they dont like. they freak out over condoms, but they have no problem with people dying because of lack of adequete healthcare, they support the war, they support the death penalty, all of these things teh church, the bible and Jesus himslef condemns, but the american catholic just ignores teh church on that part of their doctrine…

 

[someperson555]

The truth about ending the Pacific war with nuclear weapons is that it succeeded in saving lives not the other way around. Estimates of casualties in the planned invasion of Japan, based on a model derived from the Okinawa campaign, ranged from 500,000 to a million. Defeating the Japanese after such horrific loses would have made normalizing relations with the Japanese far more difficult and lengthy and may have prevented efforts by the allies to restore Japan’s economy. A death is a death…sadly what counts are the numbers not how they died. It is your opinion of Hiroshima that is knee jerk…dreaming.
Native Americans were not treated well by us in defeat… that is a given. How they treated each other was not a bed time story either. The class of cultures and the drive of europeans to find land to live on…raise families and survive, can hardly be described as greed and materialism…except by a left wing college professor. And the fact that the group we call “Native Americans” immigrated from the east across a land bridge and were probably not welcomed by the humans they found already there, is different from european migration only in numbers.
Wars are indeed caused by greed and power but whose?

the USA dropped those bombs AFTER the Japanese surrendered. the USA was also the one who provoked the Japs to attack pearl harbor. but you dont hear that part of history in school. also the allies who were the supposed “liberators” raped, pillaged, and tortured innocent German and Japanese civillians.

 

[dmelosi]

I agree 100%. the main reason most american so called Catholics are against free healthcare is because they are not really catholics, rather their religion is “conservative”. ive encountered so many of these types of “american catholics” before. they are usually just older well off middle class people who wacth the O’ reillly factor every night. they only follow church teaching as far as it agrees with their bourgeousie american lifestyle. what i noticed is that they tend to ignore Christ’s teachings that they dont like. they freak out over condoms, but they have no problem with people dying because of lack of adequete healthcare, they support the war, they support the death penalty, all of these things teh church, the bible and Jesus himslef condemns, but the american catholic just ignores teh church on that part of their doctrine…

How very untrue.
Freak out over condoms? I have not seen that.
No problem people dying because of lack of health care. Everyone I know or has talked to has a problem with that. Very silly statement.
Support the war? If it is a just war as the Church teaches, yes.
Support the death penalty? Only as the Catholic Church defines it.
I hate to generalize, but most of the democrats I see post and those democrats who are friends in real life have a couple things in common. They are married to their party because of selfish issues of their own. To ease their conscience, they usually make silly arguments on how to “cut down the number of abortions”.
If there was a way to do a poll on who gives time and treasure, I would bet that those Catholics who are in the category of belonging to a party because of what is in it for them, would give much much less than those Catholics that belong to a party because they really search and study to follow the Church’s teaching rather than let their own needs get in the way of understanding the true teaching. I believe there are some democrat Catholics that truly try to follow church teachings, but sadly I believe most are more in it for themselves.
Right or wrong, my view of those that are married to democratic party are those that want the government to do their “Christ” work. An example of how to explain that…John Kerry donates zero of his fortune to charity, yet claims that he is for the working class, and as in the news, Mitt Romney donates over 10% of his income to his church.

I cannot understand how any Catholic can call themselves a democrat unless they are truly trying to change their party’s strong pro abortion stance.

 

[Al_Moritz]

I hate to generalize, but most of the democrats I see post and those democrats who are friends in real life have a couple things in common. They are married to their party because of selfish issues of their own. To ease their conscience, they usually make silly arguments on how to “cut down the number of abortions”.

That argument can easily be turned around, and then becomes true:

“I hate to generalize, but most of the Republicans I see post are married to their party because of an (unwarranted) belief that it makes a significant difference in the abortion issue and because of a false belief that every “real” Catholic has to vote Republican. To ease their conscience about all the bad things their party stands for, like being against general healthcare, against helping the poor, and against fairness in taxes, they usually make silly and false arguments and excuses about policy.”

 

[dmelosi]

That argument can easily be turned around, and then becomes true:

“I hate to generalize, but most of the Republicans I see post are married to their party because of an (unwarranted) belief that it makes a significant difference in the abortion issue and because of a false belief that every “real” Catholic has to vote Republican. To ease their conscience about all the bad things their party stands for, like being against general healthcare, against helping the poor, and against fairness in taxes, they usually make silly and false arguments and excuses about policy.”

It shows how far apart the country is, I said what I believe.

There are some glaring differences in what I said and what you twist. The republican party is not against general healthcare, helping the poor or against fairness in taxes. But the one thing that cannot be disputed is that the democratic party is the party of abortion and the republican party is NOT the party of abortion. Millions of the most innocent of human lives are snuffed out because of those democrats that are married to their party.