Catholics VS Health Care in America: Morally Embarrassing

[Brendan]

And even if they get enough Supreme Court justices appointed that will overturn Roe -v- Wade, abortion will still be legal in California. .

That is actually not true. It depends on the reasoning used by the Supreme Court.

If the Supreme Court rules that the child is, in fact, a human person entitled to protection under the law, any state law to the contrary would then be voided.

This would be very similar to how the Brown vs BoE overruled any state laws allowing segregation in education.

So yes, if the Supreme Court rules justly, the pro abortion laws in CA would be overturned and any state legislator or subsequent Congress would not be able to pass laws to the contrary.

That is our great hope.

What an Ammendment would provide is protection against a future President and Senate from installing pro abort Justices that would remove human rights from unborn children.

 

[pismopal]

I was visiting Cape Coral last winter.I was bitten by a black widow spider.The bill from Lee Memorial hosp.listed $1500 just to sign in.The total bill $4500 for two xrays blood work and two shots of morphine .If you happen to be visiting Canada and this happened to you the bill would have been $148 even for a non resident

Your particular experience is not anywhere near the model for diagnostic medicine. Try needing a knee or hip replacement or even more basic…an MRI, in Canada or The UK.
Look at the treatment for severe medical problems. By the way…why two xrays…or even one xray for a spider bite? I understand how painful the BW bite is but how does an xray help?..curious:shrug:

 

[Speedypizza]

I think some people are more concerned with abortion being outlawed then with people having them. IF laws are passed tomorrow that make abortion illegal, people will still have them, and there are still doctors who would do them, believing that they are serving a higher good.

If you had two choices before you,

A. Make abortion illegal but the numbers will only drop 1/3 because of “back alley abortions”

B. Abortions are still legal, but 2/3’s of people stop having them.

Which is your choice?

While I agree we should try to make abortions illegal, I think a higher calling is (as somebody already pointed out in this thread) to win the hearts and minds of people.
Remember what the Bible says:

Ephesians 6:12

For it is not against human enemies that we have to struggle, but against the principalities and the ruling forces who are masters of the darkness in this world, the spirits of evil in the heavens.

 

[exoflare]

First this is a red herring and it is just playing on emotional reactions

Hey you just summarized this whole thread.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Hey you just summarized this whole thread.

A shameful truth that describes the observer will often lead to ridiculous accusations against the messenger.

 

[JackQ]

That is actually not true. It depends on the reasoning used by the Supreme Court.

If the Supreme Court rules that the child is, in fact, a human person entitled to protection under the law, any state law to the contrary would then be voided.

This would be very similar to how the Brown vs BoE overruled any state laws allowing segregation in education.

So yes, if the Supreme Court rules justly, the pro abortion laws in CA would be overturned and any state legislator or subsequent Congress would not be able to pass laws to the contrary.

That is our great hope.

What an Ammendment would provide is protection against a future President and Senate from installing pro abort Justices that would remove human rights from unborn children.

No, that would be nice, but I’m afraid that’s not accurate. There is no federal mechanism that compels a state to criminalize anything. Even if the Supreme Court overturned Roe -v- Wade on the ground that the unborn have a right to life under the Constitution, the states would not thereby be compelled to criminalize abortion. And I can tell you that California, and some other places, won’t.

Brown -v- Board of Education was different because the Court, in essence, issued an injunction. No state statutory enactment was necessary. But the Court can’t order a state legislature to pass a law, which is the only way that abortion could be made illegal within a state.

Now what might work is the Court overturning Roe -v- Wade and Congress following up with a prohibition, utilizing the Commerce Clause in Section 8 of Article 1 of the Constitution, I’m not sure. But simply overturning Roe -v- Wade, without more, is not going to make abortion illegal in California. Indeed it might improve the business of California abortuaries, as women travel from other states to get abortions.

That’s why the government, if it ever seriously takes the position that abortion should end, is going to have to provide incentives for women to carry their children to term. For the most part women get abortions because they feel they have no support (contrary to the welfare queen theory). It often later comes back to bother them, but by then it’s too late.

 

[Viki63]

I think some people are more concerned with abortion being outlawed then with people having them. IF laws are passed tomorrow that make abortion illegal, people will still have them, and there are still doctors who would do them, believing that they are serving a higher good.

I believe this not quite accurate. First, most doctors won’t do abortions, abortionists are really looked down on in the medical profession. Abortion clinics are continually being discovered to have horrendous conditions that put the lives of the women at risk. Abortionists do them for the money, very few for the higher good.
Desperate women may still have abortions, but it’s being legal gives it credibility, removing the moral stigma for many. Many women who are coerced or forced into abortions would be able to stand up for themselves more easily. If abortion were illegal, I think the numbers would drop enormously.

 

[Jayne_L]

One last thing… the restriction against foreign trained doctors in the US. No one can deny that medical training in Western Europe is not the equal of that in the US. However, the AMA uses the excuse of the differences in language to make all foreign trained doctors repeat a good portion of medical school in this country and then repeat their internship over here before they can be licensed to practice medicine.
None of us will ever see any significant reforms to the system because there is too much money involved and the public is forced to pay exhorbetant prices for a necessity.

Actually, it is quite easy to deny that medical training in the US is superior to everywhere else. I’ve had contact with many people who have experienced University expectations in the US, and quite frankly it is shocking. I would think twice about trusting a doctor from the US over one from my own country. Now, I’m not from Western Europe, but the idea that “they were trained here, therfore they’re better”… you are just believing your own propoganda. Your universities are no better than anywhere else. In many ways they’re much worse.

 

[Jayne_L]

My religion has nothing to do with the concept of “free” health care. If people want to vote themselves a form of socialist medicine they will need to figure out who and what will pay for it. The USA is broke…we have overspent and are on the edge of economic disaster. Europe demanded a whole list of “free” benefits,including health care. Is it too much trouble to examine what happened, and is happening to their economy? Americans have fallen into this entitlement trap set for them by politicians and union types and seemingly will not get out of it.

Australia also demanded a whole list of “free” benefits, and we have one of the strongest economies in the world. If what happened in Europe proves that socialised medicine doesn’t work, then what has happened here proves it does. Bit of a contradiction.

 

[jannes]

I waited three weeks for an MRI in ONtario If it had been an emergency it would have been done immediately.You ask why an Xray for a spider bite.?The bite itself was not very painful but within two hours the venom went through my body paralysing the muscles in my lungs the diaphram and then kidneys(very painful)it proceededright down and hit every muscle group til by ten o’clock that night my feet felt like they were o n fire Ineeded the morphine because of the pain in my kidneys especially.I almost went into encephalactic shock.When it hit my lung sI couldn’t breathe and thought I was taking a heart attack and the xrays were to make sure there was no fluid building in my lungs so now youv’e learned a little bit about spider bites.By the way it was in my swimsuit which I had left outside the night before to dry cheers kepp on trucking and beware of spiders

 

[cyrusthegreat]

I was visiting Cape Coral last winter.I was bitten by a black widow spider.The bill from Lee Memorial hosp.listed $1500 just to sign in.The total bill $4500 for two xrays blood work and two shots of morphine .If you happen to be visiting Canada and this happened to you the bill would have been $148 even for a non resident

 

[cyrusthegreat]

Your particular experience is not anywhere near the model for diagnostic medicine. Try needing a knee or hip replacement or even more basic…an MRI, in Canada or The UK.
Look at the treatment for severe medical problems. By the way…why two xrays…or even one xray for a spider bite? I understand how painful the BW bite is but how does an xray help?..curious:shrug:

The infant mortality rate is the number of deaths of infants under one year of age per 1,000 live births. This rate is often used as an indicator of the quality of health available in a country.

There is about 220 countries in the world. Realize the US ranks about 46 in infant mortality. Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate then the US. There are countries you have never heard of, with lower infant mortality rates than the US.

About 15 years ago I had laser surgery to correct near sightedness, a very common procedure today. At that time, if I were to do the procedure in the US, I could only have one eye corrected, and 6 months later the other, as it was still considered an experimental procedure here. Or I could have gone to Canada or Europe, where they had been using laser correction for 20 years prior. During those days the best the US had to offer its citizens was Radial keratotomy, primitive by European Standards.

There is much right wing propaganda out there that would have one believe that the American medical system is second to none. It’s not, and we pay far more for our medical care than citizens of other countries. For the money we spend, we should expect far more.

To the extent that we provide adequate health care to all of our population, speaks to our nation’s morality and compassion for our fellow man.

 

[Al_Moritz]

?The infant mortality rate is the number of deaths of infants under one year of age per 1,000 live births. This rate is often used as an indicator of the quality of health available in a country.

There is about 220 countries in the world. Realize the US ranks about 46 in infant mortality. Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate then the US. There are countries you have never heard of, with lower infant mortality rates than the US.

The reason the infant mortality rate in the US is so high is because few other countries in the world have the routine medical technology to so successfully give prematurely born babies – as early as seven months after conception – a fighting chance. Of course, some of them don’t make it.

So to take infant mortality rate as an indicator of the quality of health available in a country only works under certain premises, which do not hold for the technologically advanced infant care in the US.

 

[dmelosi]

The infant mortality rate is the number of deaths of infants under one year of age per 1,000 live births. This rate is often used as an indicator of the quality of health available in a country.

There is about 220 countries in the world. Realize the US ranks about 46 in infant mortality. Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate then the US. There are countries you have never heard of, with lower infant mortality rates than the US.

About 15 years ago I had laser surgery to correct near sightedness, a very common procedure today. At that time, if I were to do the procedure in the US, I could only have one eye corrected, and 6 months later the other, as it was still considered an experimental procedure here. Or I could have gone to Canada or Europe, where they had been using laser correction for 20 years prior. During those days the best the US had to offer its citizens was Radial keratotomy, primitive by European Standards.

There is much right wing propaganda out there that would have one believe that the American medical system is second to none. It’s not, and we pay far more for our medical care than citizens of other countries. For the money we spend, we should expect far more.

To the extent that we provide adequate health care to all of our population, speaks to our nation’s morality and compassion for our fellow man.

I really agree that there is a big problem with the health care system and it needed changes. But what is so anti Christian about Obama care is that it does not protect the unborn. Obama argued in front of the IL senate that if the original intent was to abort that it should be ok to withhold medical care from a born healthy baby and allow it to die. Obama recently added to Obama care, that birth control had to be free to everyone. To be a politician for the left wing in the U.S., you have to approve of and promote killing of the most innocent. Where is their protection?

 

[maryjk]

The infant mortality rate is the number of deaths of infants under one year of age per 1,000 live births. This rate is often used as an indicator of the quality of health available in a country.

It is used by countries that don’t count every newborn.

There is about 220 countries in the world. Realize the US ranks about 46 in infant mortality. Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate then the US. There are countries you have never heard of, with lower infant mortality rates than the US.

You might want to find out how Cuba counts infants. Are there forced abortions for those children that aren’t likely to live? Does the infant have to live for 24 hours to be counted? Then look at who is counted in the US.

 

[JackQ]

The infant mortality rate is the number of deaths of infants under one year of age per 1,000 live births. This rate is often used as an indicator of the quality of health available in a country.

There is about 220 countries in the world. Realize the US ranks about 46 in infant mortality. Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate then the US. There are countries you have never heard of, with lower infant mortality rates than the US.

About 15 years ago I had laser surgery to correct near sightedness, a very common procedure today. At that time, if I were to do the procedure in the US, I could only have one eye corrected, and 6 months later the other, as it was still considered an experimental procedure here. Or I could have gone to Canada or Europe, where they had been using laser correction for 20 years prior. During those days the best the US had to offer its citizens was Radial keratotomy, primitive by European Standards.

There is much right wing propaganda out there that would have one believe that the American medical system is second to none. It’s not, and we pay far more for our medical care than citizens of other countries. For the money we spend, we should expect far more.

To the extent that we provide adequate health care to all of our population, speaks to our nation’s morality and compassion for our fellow man.

I repeat: we did not become the world’s preeminent military and economic power by following the Sermon on the Mount.

 

[pismopal]

Australia also demanded a whole list of “free” benefits, and we have one of the strongest economies in the world. If what happened in Europe proves that socialised medicine doesn’t work, then what has happened here proves it does. Bit of a contradiction.

There is no “proof” anywhere in the world that socialized medicine or socialized anything works. Under socialized medicine the only thing that can be economised is service. Nobody pays for service and you begin to get what you pay for…nothing. There is no economy strong enough to support citizens who demand more and more “benefits” as a reward for their ability to breath or defecate. I don’t get how a system that could easilly be improved, in terms of economy, should be abandoned because it has defects…and then a dopt a system that is of third world quality. Wow…good luck:shrug:

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I repeat: we did not become the world’s preeminent military and economic power by following the Sermon on the Mount.

Of course not; and it would be very disturbing if it did.

 

[cyrusthegreat]

I repeat: we did not become the world’s preeminent military and economic power by following the Sermon on the Mount.

…nor did the Roman Empire… and there is not much left of then either.

 

[cyrusthegreat]

I really agree that there is a big problem with the health care system and it needed changes. But what is so anti Christian about Obama care is that it does not protect the unborn. Obama argued in front of the IL senate that if the original intent was to abort that it should be ok to withhold medical care from a born healthy baby and allow it to die. Obama recently added to Obama care, that birth control had to be free to everyone. To be a politician for the left wing in the U.S., you have to approve of and promote killing of the most innocent. Where is their protection?

Actually there is no such act called “Obama Care”, what was passed in 2010 was the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

The Act provides far more benefit to public health than could ever be discussed in this thread, but there are parts of the act which are not good. What is not good in this legislation would be corrected by reversing Roe v. Wade, and then a law that would prevent the use of birth control.

How about legislation that would make lust, fortification, adultery, or lying criminal offences? Would wana’ be president Gingrich promote such laws? Until morality changes for the better, laws will not stop abortion, any more than laws eradicate sin.

Many people have never taken the time to find out how the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will benefit Americans. All they know is that their political team doesn’t like it, so it must be bad. There has been many millions spent in promoting hatred of Obama, and this hatred can then be transferred to anything, just by name association, in this case “Obama Care”. There is nothing new in this propaganda technique.

Your assertion that, “Obama argued in front of the IL senate that if the original intent was to
abort that it should be ok to withhold medical care from a born healthy baby and allow it to die”, is not true. There has never been a day that Obama, in front of the IL senate, or anywhere else, made such an absurd argument. Even in Illinois murder is illegal. This false claim originated on Fox News with right-wing activist Bill Bennett, Sean Hannity and Jerome Corsi. If untruth is repeated often enough, it is believed.

“All this was inspired by the principle - which is quite true in itself - that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.” Hitler, Mein Kampf

US Office of Strategic Services report (p.51) on Hitler’s psychological profile-
His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never
concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives
(compromise); never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for
everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you
repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

I’m certain, that at the root of the political opposition to national health care, there is no concern for the unborn, but rather greed and total lack of empathy for humanity.