Catholics, what do you do with 1 John 5? It contradicts RCC doctrine concerning the assurance of salvation. See for yourself.

[mmmcounts]

I’ll start by saying I’m somewhat familiar with the “Warnings Against Private Interpretations.” Let’s deal with that upfront, shall we? Here’s that passage.

19And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

First, it tells you to pay attention to the word of the prophets. So pay attention to it! Second, I am not a prophet. I have never made any prophecies of Scripture. And I never will. So when you refer to a verse that says “No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation,” it can’t be talking about me. I’m not a prophet. It can’t be talking about anything that came from me. I make no prophecy of Scripture or any other kind. However, what follows does include some prophecy that John contributed to Scripture as he was carried along by the Holy Spirit, and you will do well to pay attention to it.

6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The RCC says we can’t know that we have eternal life at any point before we die, nor will we actually have eternal life until some time after we die. Yet John writes these things about God’s testimony that we have eternal life, and he tells us he writes these things so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Remember that RCC doctrine is man’s testimony and 1 John is God’s testimony. Now refer to verse 9 (the one in magenta). “We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.” I would strongly advise against denying God’s testimony so that you can continue affirming man’s testimony. That doesn’t seem very sound. Instead, follow the example of the Bereans. When Paul was with them, they examined the Scriptures every day to see if what he said was true. They were praised for this. If the Bereans were praised for doing this when an apostle was physically present and talking right to them, you should definitely submit “apostolic tradition” to the authority of Scripture in the same way. Examine the Scriptures to see if what it says is true.

It should go without saying that I do not welcome protests about “private interpretation.” The contents of 1 John are not the result of private interpretation. Its origin is in a man named John who spoke from God, and you will do well to pay attention to it. Deal with what is found there. That’s twice now that I’ve addressed the issue, so if you truly think I want to make it three, whatever is wrong with you is no small thing.

RCC doctrine says we can’t have assurance of salvation but the Bible says something quite different in 1 John. What do you do with this?

If you plan on posting on this thread, plan on answering that question. If you can’t figure out what to do with the passage, don’t post. Go away. If you do post, try to stay on topic.

 

[Todd_Easton]

This Catholic Answers tract seems to address your concerns, “Assurance of Salvation?”

 

[1holycatholic]

The RCC says we can’t know that we have eternal life at any point before we die, nor will we actually have eternal life until some time after we die.

Where does the Catholic Church state this?

vatican.va/phome_en.htm

 

[notJaneAusten]

I think the crux of the matter lies int the definition of the word belief. Even satan believes in Jesus, yet he is not saved.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If you plan on posting on this thread, plan on answering that question. If you can’t figure out what to do with the passage, don’t post. Go away. If you do post, try to stay on topic.

1 John 5:13 – That you may know you have eternal life
Taken from Assurance of Salvation
catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

Related to the issue of whether one can lose one’s salvation is the question of whether one can know with complete certainty that one is in a state of salvation. Even if one could not lose one’s salvation, one still might not be sure whether one ever had salvation. Similarly, even if one could be sure that one is now in a state of salvation, one might be able to fall from grace in the future. The “knowability” of salvation is a different question than the “loseability” of salvation.

From the Radio Bible Class listeners can obtain a booklet called Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? The anonymous author says the “Lord Jesus wanted his followers to be so sure of their salvation that they would rejoice more in the expectation of heaven than in victories on earth. ‘These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).’”

Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter. Even the author of Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? admits that there is a false assurance: “The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).”

Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.

But this portrayal is in error. Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother” (1 John 3:10), “If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20), “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, “It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel” (1:7). The fact that the Philippians performed spiritually by assisting Paul in his imprisonment and ministry showed that their hearts were with God and that it could be expected that they, at least in general, would persevere and remain with God.

There are many saintly men and women who have long lived the Christian life and whose characters are marked with profound spiritual joy and peace. Such individuals can look forward with confidence to their reception in heaven.

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Such an individual was Paul, writing at the end of his life, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day” (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, “I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., *dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.

The same is true of us. We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. There is the possibility of self-deception (cf. Matt. 7:22-23). As Jeremiah expressed it, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?” (Jer. 17:9). There is also the possibility of falling from grace through mortal sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.

For example, Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, *work out your own salvation *with fear and trembling.” This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

 

[script77]

lt’s like when God tells us that he gives his son to us (John 3:16), you still have to believe to actually get eternal life. ln believing, there are things that you must do, and others you must not do. ln being honest, you cant keep count of these things sometimes and hence the hope of salvation.
lt’s like an exam you study for, you know that if you pass you get a promotion, but you know you made some mistakes, you hope you pass, you want to pass, you believe you’ll pass…you understand?

 

[scott1228]

By its very nature, it is impossible for the Bible to contradict Catholic teaching. The Bible flowed from the Church, was compiled by the Church, and only the Church can correctly intrepet its meaning.

The Lord didn’t directly write one word of the Bible. He founded the Church, and gave authority to the Church. In fact, the only record of Him writing at all is when he drew on the sand, and that may have not even been a word.

If you are going to conduct a futile exercise like trying to disprove Catholic teaching by quoting the Bible, you could also attempt to disprove the Sacred Authorship of the Bible by comparing various passages that appear to contradict each other.

A better exercise would be to look at the claim of the Catholic Church that it alone consistently teaches the truth about faith and morals and attempt to disprove that. Next, take a look at the other organizations that claim that, and see how many positions they have taken on faith, salvation, Sacred Scription, abortion, marriage, divorce, etc.

 

[mmmcounts]

lt’s like when God tells us that he gives his son to us (John 3:16), you still have to believe to actually get eternal life. ln believing, there are things that you must do, and others you must not do. ln being honest, you cant keep count of these things sometimes and hence the hope of salvation.
lt’s like an exam you study for, you know that if you pass you get a promotion, but you know you made some mistakes, you hope you pass, you want to pass, you believe you’ll pass…you understand?

Sounds like a salvation of works to me. Like Islam.

If you want a guarantee of a perfect score, though, it’s possible. Have Jesus take the test for you. That’s what propitiation is. Look up Hebrews 10:14. bible.cc/hebrews/10-14.htm

You understand that I am not the one taking the test? In this particular context, I no longer even live. Jesus Christ now (at this moment) lives in me. You know that question “If you died tonight?” Like a pop quiz situation, if you will. I don’t have to hope so maybe so guess so about the outcome. I don’t even have to answer any questions. Jesus gets this one for me. It’s kind of a pass/fail situation, but Jesus never fails.

Other people, thanks for that link. I’ll give some thought to what parts I want to talk about. Not at this moment, though.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Sounds like a salvation of works to me. Like Islam.

If you want a guarantee of a perfect score, though, it’s possible. Have Jesus take the test for you. That’s what propitiation is. Look up Hebrews 10:14. bible.cc/hebrews/10-14.htm

You understand that I am not the one taking the test? In this particular context, I no longer even live. Jesus Christ now (at this moment) lives in me. You know that question “If you died tonight?” Like a pop quiz situation, if you will. I don’t have to hope so maybe so guess so about the outcome. I don’t even have to answer any questions. Jesus gets this one for me. It’s kind of a pass/fail situation, but Jesus never fails.

Other people, thanks for that link. I’ll give some thought to what parts I want to talk about. Not at this moment, though.

Weird…you skipped right over posts #5 & #6 in order to answer post #7.

Why is that?

 

[Tonks40]

Knowing you have something doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed. I know I can earn money on my 401(k), but does it always happen?? If you looked at my statements in the last year, it hasn’t - but then, I didn’t do anything to make sure I continue to earn money.

Same with my salvation…I know through Jesus Christ that I can be saved, but have I followed His commands to assure this salvation?

 

[notJaneAusten]

Are you saying that after you are saved that you no longer have the free will to reject Jesus?

 

[script77]

Sounds like a salvation of works to me. Like Islam.

If you want a guarantee of a perfect score, though, it’s possible. Have Jesus take the test for you. That’s what propitiation is. Look up Hebrews 10:14. bible.cc/hebrews/10-14.htm

You understand that I am not the one taking the test? In this particular context, I no longer even live. Jesus Christ now (at this moment) lives in me. You know that question “If you died tonight?” Like a pop quiz situation, if you will. I don’t have to hope so maybe so guess so about the outcome. I don’t even have to answer any questions. Jesus gets this one for me. It’s kind of a pass/fail situation, but Jesus never fails.

Other people, thanks for that link. I’ll give some thought to what parts I want to talk about. Not at this moment, though.

l see your point.
One still needs to take responsibility for his actions. Look at David. Blessed to lead the people of God, the issue with Bathseba came along, and Nathan exposed him at a later time. What do you think would have happened to God’s chosen if he had died before his repentance?
lf he had not asked God not to take His Holy Spirit from Him? One can fall from grace, so in addition to works, you need faith, which l omitted, sorry.
But they work hand in hand. lf all someone has is faith, and no works and Jesus does everything for you, without your (name removed by moderator)ut, what about free will? And when one gets to the Pearly Gates, what testimonial will one produce to hear ‘‘Well done my good and faithful servant’’?
Remember the saying, ‘‘lf you love me, you will do my will’’. Works are involved. With Jesus’ help you can, take the test, get a perfect score, yes.
Jesus’ reassurance is that you have access to his kingdom, to salvation. That reassurance is not an automatic statement that whatever you do in life, doesn’t matter. lf you concede to his will, though then you can.

 

[script77]

Are you saying that after you are saved that you no longer have the free will to reject Jesus?

Exactly. And that can’t be right. lt’s like saying that one gets admission to a university, but doesn’t have to attend classes to get a degree…

 

[1holycatholic]

I’ll give some thought to what parts I want to talk about. Not at this moment, though.

We are still waiting for you to show us where the Catholic Church teaches what you claim. I gave you a link. It has a search function.

You don’t have anything, do you?

 

[benedictus2]

Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

First off. The Devil believes in the Son of God. So answer this question.

Does this mean by this verse that the devil is assured of salvation?

11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

How do you know that you have the Son? What criteria did John give to enable you to know that you **have **the Son?

Please answer that question.

Here’s a hint. John 6:51-58

 

[1holycatholic]

First off. The Devil believes in the Son of God. So answer this question.

Does this mean by this verse that the devil is assured of salvation?

How do you know that you have the Son? What criteria did John give to enable you to know that you **have **the Son?

Please answer that question.

Here’s a hint. John 6:51-58

Now you’ve done it. The only way to do that is for ****mmmcounts ****to become Catholic.:yup:

 

[tqualey]

Hi, mmmcounts,

It sounded to me like Randy and Script77 gave excellent responses to your question. Actually, their responses, and those of the others who also clearly identified the error of your statement, were so good - that I’d just like to move onto your seemingly dismissive response to Script77.

Sounds like a salvation of works to me. Like Islam.

Now that is interesting. Let’s see what we have here…

Were there groups who thought they were saved? Yes. Are there some who were surprised at the end? Most assuredly. Let’s take a look at two examples given by Christ as recorded by Matthew:

Matthew 7: 21-23 tells us that not everyone who says, Lord, Lord is going to heaven - even though they may have done some amazing things in their lives. Why? These folks were NOT doing the Will of God. But, it looks like Christ wanted to emphasize a point or two more on this concept as it appears in Matthew.

Matthew 25: 31-46 tells us that works of charity done for the least favored of individuals - if done for Christ (this takes Faith) will be eternally rewarded. The reverse is equally true - it looks like these guys lacked both Faith AND Works!

Now the NT is just full of stories about men working - and St. Paul advised us all that even he had to continue to work lest he become a castaway! ( 1Cor 9: 27 ) But, you know what? The one I like the best is in the stories of the early CC as it was getting organized. You will find these in the Bible you have - courtesy of the CC that defined what would be in it and lovingly under the guidance of the Holy Spirit put it together - in the Chapter entitled, “The Acts of the Apostles”.

Acts 6: 1-7 tells us that there was more then enough work to be done by the Apostles - the First Bishops of the CC! They had so much work that they realized they could not do it all by themselves. And under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Twelve chose the first Deacons. It does one’s heart good to see such Divinely Inspired growth and development.

None of us can ‘earn’ our Salvation - that is a free gift of God to us through the Redemptive Suffering of His Son, Jesus Christ, to atone for sin. And if we are to be awarded Salvation - it will be because we have DONE (Works) the Will of God through Faith. Just like it says in that so-called ‘Straw Gospel’ that Luther tried to write off (** James 2: 18 ) ** Faith is the strength behind Works - but, you must have both.

So, this is nothing like Islam

God bless

 

[Cinette]

Hi, mmmcounts,

It sounded to me like Randy and Script77 gave excellent responses to your question. Actually, their responses, and those of the others who also clearly identified the error of your statement, were so good - that I’d just like to move onto your seemingly dismissive response to Script77.

Now that is interesting. Let’s see what we have here…

Were there groups who thought they were saved? Yes. Are there some who were surprised at the end? Most assuredly. Let’s take a look at two examples given by Christ as recorded by Matthew:

Matthew 7: 21-23 tells us that not everyone who says, Lord, Lord is going to heaven - even though they may have done some amazing things in their lives. Why? These folks were NOT doing the Will of God. But, it looks like Christ wanted to emphasize a point or two more on this concept as it appears in Matthew.

Matthew 25: 31-46 tells us that works of charity done for the least favored of individuals - if done for Christ (this takes Faith) will be eternally rewarded. The reverse is equally true - it looks like these guys lacked both Faith AND Works!

Now the NT is just full of stories about men working - and St. Paul advised us all that even he had to continue to work lest he become a castaway! ( 1Cor 9: 27 ) But, you know what? The one I like the best is in the stories of the early CC as it was getting organized. You will find these in the Bible you have - courtesy of the CC that defined what would be in it and lovingly under the guidance of the Holy Spirit put it together - in the Chapter entitled, “The Acts of the Apostles”.

Acts 6: 1-7 tells us that there was more then enough work to be done by the Apostles - the First Bishops of the CC! They had so much work that they realized they could not do it all by themselves. And under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Twelve chose the first Deacons. It does one’s heart good to see such Divinely Inspired growth and development.

None of us can ‘earn’ our Salvation - that is a free gift of God to us through the Redemptive Suffering of His Son, Jesus Christ, to atone for sin. And if we are to be awarded Salvation - it will be because we have DONE (Works) the Will of God through Faith. Just like it says in that so-called ‘Straw Gospel’ that Luther tried to write off (** James 2: 18 ) ** Faith is the strength behind Works - but, you must have both.

So, this is nothing like Islam

God bless

Thank you for this posting tqualey - it is so clear. You have applied both Faith and Reason. Common sense, if one has it, tells us that works must flow from Faith and love of course.

I can never understand why Protestants keep asking this question and expounding their idea of Sola Fide - which makes no sense at all - common or otherwise!!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Cinette,

Glad you liked it - the real credit, though goes to the folks that posted ahead of me - they did a much better job.

Thank you for this posting tqualey - it is so clear. You have applied both Faith and Reason. Common sense, if one has it, tells us that works must flow from Faith and love of course.

I can never understand why Protestants keep asking this question and expounding their idea of Sola Fide - which makes no sense at all - common or otherwise!!

Yes, this ‘attitude’ has me curious - just look at the Title. I do not really understand how these guys think they can just start arguments of a Catholic list. I really would have thought that they had enough to fight about amongst themselves (you know with 30,000+ faiths, religions, cults, clubs, meeting groups, conventions, etc - the areas of agreement are few and far between.) My guess would have been to come in, sit down and just read what others are posting and see what you can learn. Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaw … not this guy.

Something tells me that Satan just thrives on such division and hatred.

Have a great day …oh, and mmmcount, we are all awaiting a response…

God bless