Catholics, what do you do with 1 John 5? It contradicts RCC doctrine concerning the assurance of salvation. See for yourself.

[joe370]

**Hey mmmcounts…

You said…
**
Again, the Bible says we are saved unto good works. It does not say we are saved by good works. (More to the point, the Bible actually does say we are not saved by works.

The C.C. agrees with you…

What could possibly be going through you mind when you see that?). They act as evidence of salvation. They are the result of love for God- if we love Him, we keep His commands.

**And one of His commands, thanks to His free gift of Salvation, is to do good works. Without Jesus’ Sacrifice, all the good works would be for naught.

**

But it doesn’t work in reverse. Keeping God’s commands does not promise to lead to love for God, nor do good works promise to lead to salvation. Salvation leads to good works, and love for God leads to obedience.

Absolutely…** Salvation leads to good works, and love for God leads to obedience to His commands, and one of His commands is to do good works --right? **

Works are “involved” (in a loose sense), as you say, but they are not the cause of salvation.

**The C.C. agrees with you…Jesus is the cause of our salvation!
**
A better word would be “associated” instead of involved. You’re arguing that the nature of good works’ “involvement” is that of causing a person to become saved.

**I know people who don’t believe in Jesus Christ, yet they do incredible good works their entire life, more so then some believers. How is it that they are able to perform incredible good works with out said Salvation?
**

But the Bible says something different. With reference to salvation, it is “not by works.” It then says we are saved “unto good works,” telling us very plainly the manner in which works are associated with salvation.

**Good works are possible without salvation?
**

As to what happens when we get to heaven, there is a judgment (Judgment Seat of Christ) involving varying levels of rewards for what was done while alive. But in order to even “play the game,” you have to be saved in the first place. If you aren’t saved by grace through faith, you go to a different judgment (Great White Throne) where there are no rewards but punishments.

A life time of good works by non-believers leads to a total separation from God. Soooo :sad_bye:

 

[Vincent]

Look at the top of the post. The link there is the one I was given by Catholics in this forum. It’s been pasted on the thread in its entirety, or something very close to it. I’m working with what I’ve been given. I re-quoted parts of it in the post you’re talking about. That’s what I’m pulling from.

I don’t find anything in the content of that article that would lead one to conclude that “the RCC says we can’t know that we have eternal life at any point before we die, nor will we actually have eternal life until some time after we die.”

Before we can fruitfully discuss the epistemology of eternal life, we really need to clarify the epistemology of “the RCC says . . .”

Perhaps you’d like to elaborate why you hold onto the conclusion that “the RCC says we can’t know . . .” or provide a magisterial source (Catechism, conciliar documents, magisterial pronouncements, etc.) that unambiguously demonstrates that “the RCC says we can’t know”.

 

[mmmcounts]

James said that it is a dead faith to not have works. Nowhere does he say, “it wasn’t faith in the first place.” He gives the analogy of a body and spirit. He says that a body without a spirit is a dead body. His analogy doesn’t work if he were saying, “it wasn’t a body in the first place.”

In verse 14 hes says this:

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has not deeds? Can such faith save him?

Aside from the fact that it’s a claim to faith rather than actual faith, James asks the question “Can such faith save him?” The implied answer to this question is “No.” Clearly this is not the same thing spoken of in Ephesians 2:8-10. This is not true faith, and you can’t be saved by it. You can call it dead faith or no faith at all; functionally speaking, it makes no difference. Thanks for splitting that hair, though.

And I will honor your request to answer your question since I posted in your thread. There is no contradiction. We have a moral assurance of salvation. It is an if/then statement, always has been. (Commonly used in mathematics.) As has already been pointed out, **IF **we do what is asked, THEN we are saved. Some great theologians are also mathematicians.

Thanks for answering the question. There is a contradiction, though, because the RCC source states that there are zero believers who have the ability to know that they have eternal life. John states that he writes these things in 1 John in order that we (ones who believe) may have the ability to know that we have eternal life. This is a contradiction.

Catholic understanding uses reason, not emotive statements that incite warm-fuzzy, false knowledge.

That’s a false dichotomy, and I’ve already demonstrated that the Catholic source given to me uses faulty logic. It states that some people will not wind up knowing their eternal state correctly, and that means it is impossible for anyone else to know their eternal state correctly. It’s a non sequitur. And again, the conclusion they come to denies what is written in 1 John. The Catholic source says it’s impossible to know. John says he writes these things so that you may know. Was John mistaken? Or is the RCC? Pick at least one.

 

[joe370]

Good works are not necessary to have faith in Christ. I

So, you are saying, I don’t have to perform any good works - Notta! Zip! Zilch! --period —to have faith in Jesus Christ? I see the propensity for such inactivity to lead one to a selfish life style. However, I guess it does make sense, logically speaking. I really doubt that Jesus would be too pleased with someone having ardent faith in Him while not ever doing one good work.

**I know some guys who came to faith in Christ while they were in jail. They didn’t do a single good thing prior to that. Fortunately for them, the way you get saved is…
**

…By faith in Jesus Christ, which must lead to good works, otherwise he/she is not saved, by your own admission --right?

 

[mmmcounts]

I don’t find anything in the content of that article that would lead one to conclude that “the RCC says we can’t know that we have eternal life at any point before we die, nor will we actually have eternal life until some time after we die.”

Before we can fruitfully discuss the epistemology of eternal life, we really need to clarify the epistemology of “the RCC says . . .”

Perhaps you’d like to elaborate why you hold onto the conclusion that “the RCC says we can’t know . . .” or provide a magisterial source (Catechism, conciliar documents, magisterial pronouncements, etc.) that unambiguously demonstrates that “the RCC says we can’t know”.

"The same is true of us. We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. "

catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

As for you, Joe370, I realize the RCC agrees with me on some things. However, it seems Catholics have three different kinds of salvation, or so I’ve been learning.

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

I was saved only once. I guess Catholics do it differently.

 

[quasimodo]

As for you, Joe370, I realize the RCC agrees with me on some things. However, it seems Catholics have three different kinds of salvation, or so I’ve been learning.

I was saved only once. I guess Catholics do it differently.

Lovely straw man - calling it ‘kinds’ of salvation. That’s not really an honest description of the Church’s position, is it?

The Church’s teaching is that salvation is a process not an event.

The Church has a clear message and understanding on certainty of salvation. Imagine there is a bridge you cross everyday to go home. You can trust that bridge with certainty. But if you deliberately ( free will ) attack the supports of the bridge with a hack saw and acid ( sin ) and then decide to drive and Abrams M1A1 main battle tank ( presumption ) over the bridge your assurance means nothing.

 

[1holycatholic]

"The same is true of us. We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. "

catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

As for you, Joe370, I realize the RCC agrees with me on some things. However, it seems Catholics have three different kinds of salvation, or so I’ve been learning.

I was saved only once. I guess Catholics do it differently.

Yes, Catholics work out their salvation with fear and trembling.
Phil 2:12:

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Did you even read the link you put in your own post?

 

[joe370]

Hey mmmcounts…

You said…

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8),

**Does Jesus tell us to take it to the bible or take it to the Church?

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.**

**Is the bible the pillar and foundation of truth or is it Jesus’ Apostolic Church?
**

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

**If Jesus’ established church, circa 33 AD cannot fail:

…upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.**

**then, logically speaking, everyone should take unresolvable issues to Jesus’ One Apostolic Church --right? **

**If not the C.C. then to which church can you and I take our unresolvable issues?
**

**Why quote the Bible when trying to prove the authenticity of the Bible? Circular logic will not work. If I say that I am the President of the U.S., does that mean I am because I said so? No! I would need another recognized authority or governing body to declare that I am such, before it can be recognized by others --right?

Is that recognized authority or governing body your church, my sisters church, my fathers church, or my church? I thought Jesus built just one church, circa 33 AD, and said nothing would ever vanquish His Body, the Church, to which He is the Savior?
**
**In other words, something outside the Bible has to verify the sacredness of the Scriptures. The bible didn’t come with a table of contents; that was put there by the C.C. Why believe the C.C. got it right vis-a-vis the inclusion/exclusion of writings in the bible, yet doubt the C.C. vis-a-vis other doctrines? How do you know the C.C. got it right with the correct inclusion/exclusion of writings in your bible? If the C.C. is wrong vis-a-vis just one teaching, then the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth is fallible. After all, the bible says the H.S. is “teaching” and “guiding” Jesus’ One Apostolic Church in perpetuity! If Jesus’ established church circa 33 AD --fails, necessitating the need for a church stemming from the protestant reformation, then Jesus lied to Matthew and John!

What was the sanctioned body, promised by Jesus to be in the world from its very inception (Pentecost) to end of the age? **

When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together. And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them. And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

**If Jesus tells His Apostolic Church to make disciples of all nations by teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, then we should strive to find that Apostolic Church, because that church has truth regarding everything that Jesus commanded --right? **

The Catholic Church, according to my exhaustive research, is the One Apostolic Church, started by Jesus Christ; The leaders of the C.C. can trace their office back to one of the twelve Apostles. The only reason that any non-Catholic today, has reverence for the Bible is because the Catholic Church has said that the books contained therein are sacred Scripture, as opposed to the myriad of pseudo-scriptures that plagued the Apostolic Church for many centuries.

but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

**However, unlike the Apostle Paul, you are working out your salvation in fear and trembling, with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ, according to your, in a church, Paul did not attend --in a church that Jesus did not build. As a former Lutheran, it was this fact that helped me realize that I could only trace the origin of the church to which I belonged, back to Martin Luther, not to the Pentecost. Is that a fair assessment. **

**The bible says that Jesus is the Savior of His Mystical Body. The bible says His Body is His Apostolic Church, with Him as the Head and Savior of His Body, which, again, is His Apostolic Church. Jesus is His Church! Therefore, Salvation, according to your bible, is to be found in Jesus’ One Apostolic Church, established circa 33 AD, since Jesus is the Savior of His Body, the church --the House of the Living God and the Pillar and foundation of Truth --not in the bible, again, according to your bible. **

What are your thoughts on the matter; I am very open-minded…

 

[Vincent]

"The same is true of us. We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. "

catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004.

The denial of “infallible certitude” appears to be your best evidence.

If you are using this denial to support your argument that “the RCC says we can’t **know **. . . ,” your next step is to demonstrate that the verb “to know” is confined to the possession of “infallible certitude”.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Did you read the OP? 1 John 5 is written to those who believe that we may know that we have eternal life. I made that verse a bigger size and everything. I also color-coded the earlier verses though, because those are the ones that tell us how to do…something…you say can’t be done. :whacky:

Did YOU read post #5 & #6?

This article explains why you are wrong.

I notice that you have failed to interact with that information.

 

[joe370]

As for you, Joe370, I realize the RCC agrees with me on some things. However, it seems Catholics have three different kinds of salvation, or so I’ve been learning.

**So, are you the benchmark by which doctrines found in the bible, should be defined? Or is it the church to which you belong? **

I was saved only once. I guess Catholics do it differently.

I guess you are being facetious, because the C.C., again, agrees with you. We are all saved once.

**mmmcounts…
**
**Salvation is found in Jesus Christ, alone; Jesus is the way the truth, the life…Jesus built One Mystical Body, which is His One Apostolic Church; He is the Head of His One Body; He is the Savior of His One Body, according to your bible. Do you really think Jesus planned to be the Head and Savior of a multitude of divided churches? Jesus said:
**
**“Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.”
**
**Do you really, think Jesus is happy with people perpetually dividing His Body --fracturing His Fathers House? Jesus’ One Apostolic Church, according to your bible, is the house of the living God. If your bible, canonized by the C.C., teaches unity, oneness and harmony, and it denounces division and dissension —shouldn’t we all strive to find the church, built by Jesus circa 33 AD, that still maintains oneness, unity and harmony? **

**Jesus didn’t build His Church in the 4th century, the 10th century or the 16th century; Jesus built His Apostolic Church in the 1st century and said:

…and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Do you believe (any non -Catholic) Jesus when He said, the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it? If you do, then why don’t you belong to His Church?

**Jesus is the Savior of His established Church circa 33 AD; it can’t fail --Period! --no matter how often people continue to fracture His Body, by creating new and improved churches! Can Jesus really be improved upon, by mere men? WOW!!! **

**Truth, AKA Jesus Christ, AKA the Holy Spirit (Spirit of truth) --is to be found in His Apostolic Church --in His Body, where the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the House of the Living God can be found --where the Holy Spirit is forever guiding Jesus’ One Mystical Body. The closer one gets to the Church built by Jesus, the closer one gets to the truth regarding any one doctrine. **

**Jesus built One Apostolic Church and said:

My church is to be one: John 10:16; – there shall be one fold and one shepherd Eph 4:3-6; – one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father Rom 16:17; – avoid those who create dissensions** 1 Cor 1:10; – I urge that there be no divisions among you Phil 2:2; – be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing Rom 15:5; – God grant you to think in harmony with one another Jn 17:17-23; – I pray that they may be one, as we are one Jn 17: 23; – that they may be brought to perfection as one 1 Cor 12:13; – in one spirit we were baptized into one body Rom 12:5; – we, though many, are one body in Christ Eph 4:4; – one body, one Spirit, called to one hope Col 3:15; – the peace into which you were called in one body.

**The Bible, codified/canonized by the C.C. says there was suppose to be just One Body --One Church, not thousands of churches, teaching something different, on some level, regarding any one doctrine.

Do you believe what your bible teaches?..****

 

[tqualey]

Hi mmmcounts,

Ephesians 2 provides us with profound insight.

Ephesians 2 says we are not saved by works. I can see how you’d get confused, because right after that it says we are saved “unto good works.” Do you see how that’s different from what you’re saying, though? You’re saying we are saved by works. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not by works…but unto good works. Works are the result of salvation, not the cause.

From my understanding of how Ephesians is usually rendered by Protestants, it comes down to, “Faith Alone”. Is this what you have in mind?

Saul of Tarsus was a zealous Pharisee. He learned about the Works of the Law as a child and improved in their practice as a student under good teachers, Gamaliel being the most notable. St. Paul saw how these Works of the Law fell short (or just ‘works’). So, There was no merit for eternal salvation in washing twice, sprinkling three times, cooking meat in certain pots and not others, etc.

There are other works that we do need to be concerned with - and some of these are contained in Matt 25:35. Seeing Christ in the person of our neighbor who is: hungry, naked, sick, in prison and just generally not able to care for themselves. What is it we are being asked to do for them. Christ’s judgment is quite clear: feed them, clothe them, visit them and basically see Christ in them and act accordingly.

When you talk about ‘works’, what do you have in mind?

There is an intersting item written by James Akin that addresses this topic in an excellent manner. Here is the link: catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706chap.asp

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, mmmcounts,

I have two requests:

1.) Please drop “the RCC” title. It is not valid. If you wish to shorten the title of Catholic Church then “CC” is perfectly fine - and, I just save you at least one key stroke

2.) Please understand that there really is a difference between moral certitude and an infallable guarantee.

Moral certainty would be like the bridge example given previously. Our lives would be impossible to live if we never ‘knew’ what would happen if we did something. Still bridges do fall…and, with people on them Regular commercial jets are not intended to land in rivers - but a couple of weeks ago one did - and everyone survived. Moral certainty basically means we do our best so that the intended outcomes in our lives are predictable. But, there is no guarantee.

An example of infallable guarantee would be that God loves us. God loves all of His Creation. Does that mean He loves the Devils in Hell? Yes, it does. This love does not stop His Divine Punishment because He respects their Free Will.

Another example of an infallable guarantee would be that if we are brought by God’s Grace to Baptism and love God with all of our mind, heart and strength and our neighbor as ourself - until the last moment of our life - then the eternal crown is ours. St. Paul knew this quite well - that is why he did not (after running for so long) give up and then bcome someone who is lost forever - a castaway (1Cor 9: 27)
Final and last example of this guarantee - and you will find this in Gal 6: 7-9

Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows,
8
because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit.
9
Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up.
10
So then, while we have the opportunity, let us do good to all, but especially to those who belong to the family of the faith.

Please note in verse 9: “…doing good…” and verse 10 “…do good to all…” Paul is referring to doing someTHING and that would be a WORK.

God bless

 

[Cinette]

Sounds like a salvation of works to me. Like Islam.

If you want a guarantee of a perfect score, though, it’s possible. Have Jesus take the test for you. That’s what propitiation is. Look up Hebrews 10:14. bible.cc/hebrews/10-14.htm

You understand that I am not the one taking the test? In this particular context, I no longer even live. Jesus Christ now (at this moment) lives in me. You know that question “If you died tonight?” Like a pop quiz situation, if you will. I don’t have to hope so maybe so guess so about the outcome. I don’t even have to answer any questions. Jesus gets this one for me. It’s kind of a pass/fail situation, but Jesus never fails.

Other people, thanks for that link. I’ll give some thought to what parts I want to talk about. Not at this moment, though.

A salvation of Works???

What about :

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me “Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of Heaven but only the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven” 22 On that day many will say to me, “Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” 23 Than I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.”

Read 24….29

Matt 25:32-

All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep on his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 “…………35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me. 37 …………recommended reading until ……45 Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””

Now tell me mmmcounts – is this a Salvation of Works? Yes it is but it is works which emanate from firm Faith and Love of Jesus, the Son of God, second person of the Blessed Trinity.

You can’t have Faith and Love without it resulting in good works. We Catholics do not believe in Works to earn brownie points. No, the works are as a result of grace.

Think about it.

Blessings
Cinette

 

[tqualey]

Hi Joe370

This was an excellent post.

If you wouldn’t mind, when you make a scriptural reference - if you could give the citation. I am having trouble keeping things straight in my head… and have a hard time looking these items up without a reference. Thanks

You know, the doctrines that we have in the CC were developed under the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit. We just did not get a group together, take a vote and split the difference. Truly, God is Present in the CC.

You’d think that would be reason enough for these guys to drop what they are doing and come over! Oooops, I guess it is a matter of Faith!!

God bless

Hey mmmcounts…

You said…

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8),

**Does Jesus tell us to take it to the bible or take it to the Church?

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.**

**Is the bible the pillar and foundation of truth or is it Jesus’ Apostolic Church?
**

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

**If Jesus’ established church, circa 33 AD cannot fail:

…upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.**

**then, logically speaking, everyone should take unresolvable issues to Jesus’ One Apostolic Church --right? **

 

[twb1621]

1 John CH:5
1 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten by God, (belief through Faith, not through proof) and everyone who loves the father loves (also) the one begotten by him.
2 In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments. **(Love of God and those of God fortified by the charitable works we do in our love). **
3 For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. **(keeping His commandments… Humility and Charity in the love of God). **And his commandments are not burdensome,
4 for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world. And the victory that conquers the world is our faith. 5 Who (indeed) is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Humility, Charity and love.
One must have Faith to be saved over and above all. But to practice Humility and Charity comes from love as Jesus has taught, and results in willingly performing actions, works. To perform deeds no matter how good without faith is to perform deeds for selfish reasons instead of for the Love of God.

Matthew CH: 25
31 14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

You can not love another yet leave him to hunger…

 

[benedictus2]

No good works is tantamount to no faith in Christ. If you have faith, good works will result. Eph. 2:10.

Well we all know that the wages of sin is death. Now even people with faith sin. So when people with faith sin, does that mean that they do not get the wages that is due sin?

Of course, it also mentions predestination, and I don’t know how comfortable you are with that.

We believe in predestinaton. Just not double predestination.
And while the Church affirms predestination, it does not say how it works. There are however schools of thought on the interplay of Grace and Free Will

Not necessarily. Some will say “Lord, Lord.” They did good works, but they didn’t know Jesus. Good works does not always mean someone knows Christ. A friend of mine named Mohammed does lots of good works. Do you think he knows Christ? I hope he will someday, but right now he’s a Muslim. So there you go.

So what happens to all Muslims? Are they all condemned to damnation? Note that a lot of these people have been born into this religion. So that they do not know any better. Much like you, if you were born protestant. you do not know any better than what you have been taught.

Good works are not necessary to have faith in Christ.

Somehow that is not quite right. Good works is not necessary to faith. They are two different things and one is not a pre-requisite or a pre-condition of the other. But if you truly believe in Christ (i.e.) follow his commands, then good works will ensue because this is what Christ asked of you. Love one another as I have loved you.

Jesus said that it is not those who call him Lord, Lord who will be saved but those WHO DO THE WILL OF HIS FATHER.

I know some guys who came to faith in Christ while they were in jail.They didn’t do a single good thing prior to that. {/quote]

That is a pretty sweeping statement. “THEY DID NOT DO A SINGLE GOOD WORK prior to that.” Can you read their souls. Do you know their history from birth?

Methinks that is very arrogant of you to pass such a judgment here. You are obviously speaking from ignorance.

After they were saved by grace through faith (not by works) they started doing the things God had prepared beforehand for them to walk in.

So you think only if you are conscious that you are doing things for God that is when it matters?

Well, as in your example above, Muslims do good works FOR GOD. So how does that gel with your overall propostion.

Here is a little challenge for you.

Read Matthew 25 in particlar V31-46.
Protestants have come up with some really ridiculous interpretations of this. I am hoping you will be different.

 

[Ignatius]

Let’s deal with that upfront, shall we?

When you take a few verses of scripture and ignore those parts of scripture which proove your misinterpretation is false, you will have a false interpretation.

IOW: When you take the text out of context, you will have only a pretext.

 

[benedictus2]

mmmcounts,

---

Can you please explain a few things:

1. How do you understand "you have been saved by grace through faith’
2. what does it mean to be saved by grace
3. what is the nature of this grace in relation to salvation.
4. how does it work. (this is very important as this is where the main difference lie between Catholic and Protestant doctrine.)

I think if you can answer these you will get a little bit closer to understanding 1John 5.

 

[benedictus2]

When you take a few verses of scripture and ignore those parts of scripture which proove your misinterpretation is false, you will have a false interpretation.

IOW: When you take the text out of context, you will have only a pretext.

:clapping:
Just thought that needed emphasizing as this goes to the very heart of the Protestant habit of selective reading. The chopping up of Scripture.

Just a small correction though: I think that should read “prove your interpretation is false” or “disprove your misinterpretation”.