Catholics, what do you do with 1 John 5? It contradicts RCC doctrine concerning the assurance of salvation. See for yourself.

[tobinatorstark]

From the Haydock Bible Commentary 1 John 5:6-10

Ver. 6. Came by water and blood. The sense seems to be, by water, with which he ordered every one to be baptized and made Christians; 2ndly, by his blood shed on the cross for our redemption. (Witham) — Blood: not only to wash away our sins by the water of baptism, but by his own blood. (Challoner) — And it is the Spirit that testifieth that Christ[2] is the truth. By the Spirit, which is not here called the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Ghost, as in the next verse, is either meant the Spirit or soul of Christ, which dying he recommended into the hands of his Father, and which shewed that he was truly man, against Cerinthus, and some heretics of those times; or else it may signify the spirit of grace, given in this world to the faithful, in the same sense as St. Paul says, (Romans viii. 16.) that the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our Spirit, that we are the sons of God: and of which may be understood what is said here, (ver. 10.) He that believeth in the Son of God, hath the testimony of God in himself. (Witham)

Ver. 7. There are three that give testimony in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one: i.e. one in nature, in substance, and in all perfections, in the same sense as when Christ himself said, (John x. 30.) I and the Father are one, or one thing. The Socinians object that this verse is wanting in many Greek manuscripts; and even Erasmus in one edition, and Mr. Simon in his Critics, have questioned it, or rejected it, as a false reading, but without any sufficient proofs and grounds, as hath been shewn by many learned Catholics, and also by Protestant writers, who receive in their translations this verse as canonical. It is easy to account for the omission of this verse; for as both the seventh and eighth verse begin and end with the same words, this gave occasion to the oversight and omission of the transcribers, whereas it is not credible that such a whole verse could be added. And that it was only by the mistake and oversight of transcribers may further appear, because we find part of the seventh verse, to wit, and these three are one, cited by Tertullian, lib. contra Praxeam. chap. xxiii. p. 515. Ed. Rig. and twice by St. Cyprian, Epist. 73. ad Jubaianum. p. 125. Ed. Rig. in the Oxford Edition, p. 310. and in his Treatise de Unit. Ecclesiæ, p. 181. Ed. Rigal. and in the Oxford Ed. p. 79, where also Dr. Fell defends this verse of St. John to be genuine. Tertullian and St. Cyprian wrote long before the dispute with the Arians. The Socinians also object that this passage is not brought by St. Athanasius and some other fathers against the Arians, which they could scarce have omitted had they read this verse, but this only proves that this omission had happened in some manuscripts in their time, or, as some conjecture, that the Arians had corrupted some copies. St. Fulgentius made use of it against the Arians, and also others about that time. See the Benedictines of St. Maur against Mr. Simon, in the first tome of St. Jerome, p. 1670. Both Catholics and Protestants, after a diligent examination, have received this verse, which is found in the best manuscripts. See Greek Testament at Amsterdam, in the year 1711.[A.D. 1711.] The three divine Persons, who are present everywhere, though said to be in heaven, gave testimony concerning Christ. The Father by a voice from heaven, both at his baptism (Matthew iii. 17.) and at his transfiguration, (Matthew xvii. 5.) saying: “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him:” and also by all the miracles wrought by the same power of all the three divine Persons. 2. The Son testified to the Jews on many occasions, that he was sent from God, that he was the only Son of God, that he and his Father were one, &c. as in the annotations on John iii. The Holy Ghost confirmed the same, particularly by coming down upon the disciples on the day of Pentecost, and inspiring them to teach the same doctrine concerning Jesus Christ. (Witham) — An express proof of the three distinct persons and unity of nature and essence in the blessed Trinity.

Ver. 8. And there are three that give testimony on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three are one.[3] This is a repetition of what was before said, ver. 6, to be expounded in the same manner. But when it is added, these three are one, the sense is, that they witness one and the same truth. (Witham) — As the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all bear witness to Christ’s divinity; so the spirit, which he yielded up, crying out with a loud voice upon the cross, and the water and blood that issued from his side, bear witness to his humanity, and are one; that is, all agree in one testimony. (Challoner)

Ver. 10. He that believeth not the Son, maketh him (God) a liar, by refusing to believe the testimonies given by the three divine Persons, that Jesus was the Messias and the true Son of God, by whom eternal life is obtained and promised to all that comply with his doctrine. In him we have also this lively confidence, that we shall obtain whatever we ask, according to his will, when we ask what is for our good with perseverance and in the manner we ought. And this we know and have experience of, by having obtained the petitions that we have made. (Witham)

 

[tobinatorstark]

part 2. 1 John 5:19-21 from the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 19. And the whole world is seated in wickedness;[6] i.e. a great part of the world. It may also signify, is under the wicked one; meaning the devil, who is elsewhere called the prince of this world, that is, of all the wicked. (John xii. 31.) (Witham)

Ver. 20. And may be in his true Son.[7] This is the true God, and eternal life. Which words are a clear proof of Christ’s divinity, and as such made use of by the ancient Fathers.

Ver. 21. Keep yourselves from idols. An admonition to the new converted Christians, lest, conversing with heathens and idolaters, they might fall back into the sin of idolatry, which may be the sin unto death here mentioned by St. John. (Witham)

This is how Catholic interpret those verses.

 

[broski234]

If you follow all the “if’s”! The word “if” is used, I think, 21 times before that verse, combining all the previous chapters.

 

[mackbrislawn]

To be saved and enter into the holy city your name must be written in the book of life:

“…and nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Rev 21:27

Can your name be erased from the book of life? Yes.

“But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white; for they are worthy.
He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white arments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before his angels.” Rev 3:4,5

 

[broski234]

Sounds like a salvation of works to me. Like Islam.

If you want a guarantee of a perfect score, though, it’s possible. Have Jesus take the test for you. That’s what propitiation is. Look up Hebrews 10:14. bible.cc/hebrews/10-14.htm

You understand that I am not the one taking the test? In this particular context, I no longer even live. Jesus Christ now (at this moment) lives in me. You know that question “If you died tonight?” Like a pop quiz situation, if you will. I don’t have to hope so maybe so guess so about the outcome. I don’t even have to answer any questions. Jesus gets this one for me. It’s kind of a pass/fail situation, but Jesus never fails.

Other people, thanks for that link. I’ll give some thought to what parts I want to talk about. Not at this moment, though.

No one knows for sure! You can’t be 100% sure you are going to Heaven. As St. Paul says, we can work out our salvation with fear and trembling and hope for salvation when we die. On your pop quiz question: Where is that question in the bible? I don’t think you can find that one! But to answer that, I would say that I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against me, but that doesn’t mean that I am aquitted. Only the Lord judges me!

 

[Crimson_Seraph]

I think it should be noted that not all Protestants believe in Eternal Security. Likewise, not all “Fundamentalists” (people use this label like it’s a dirty thing now a days) believe in it either. Those of us from a Wesleyen-Arminian background certainly acknowledge that through our unbelief or our continuing in sin we can potentially lose our salvation.

 

[1holycatholic]

I think it should be noted that not all Protestants believe in Eternal Security. Likewise, not all “Fundamentalists” (people use this label like it’s a dirty thing now a days) believe in it either. Those of us from a Wesleyen-Arminian background certainly acknowledge that through our unbelief or our continuing in sin we can potentially lose our salvation.

How is that possible with Sola Scriptura?

 

[mackbrislawn]

How is that possible with Sola Scriptura?

This brings up an interesting situation.

As it was explained to me, back in the early 1800’s there was the “Great Awakening,” and men like Alexander Campbell were concerned with the multiplicity of denominations, when there should be just one Church of Christ. They decided that the reason for all the denominations was because of all the man-made creeds and confessions.

So, forget all the man-made creeds and confessions, forget what Luther said, what Calvin wrote, and just “go back to the Bible.” And so they did. And guess what? They came up with a soteriology, a doctrine of salvation and baptism that is remarkably similar to that of the Catholic Church.

Just by going back to the bible alone.

 

[tobinatorstark]

Sounds like a salvation of works to me. Like Islam.

If you want a guarantee of a perfect score, though, it’s possible. Have Jesus take the test for you. That’s what propitiation is. Look up Hebrews 10:14. bible.cc/hebrews/10-14.htm

You understand that I am not the one taking the test? In this particular context, I no longer even live. Jesus Christ now (at this moment) lives in me. You know that question “If you died tonight?” Like a pop quiz situation, if you will. I don’t have to hope so maybe so guess so about the outcome. I don’t even have to answer any questions. Jesus gets this one for me. It’s kind of a pass/fail situation, but Jesus never fails.

Other people, thanks for that link. I’ll give some thought to what parts I want to talk about. Not at this moment, though.

Hebrews 10:14 from the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 14. By one oblation[5] he hath perfected or consummated for ever them that are sanctified, or justified, because this one oblation was sufficient to sanctify all men. He repeats this, to shew them the excellency of Christ’s sacrifice above those of the former law. (Witham)

 

[mmmcounts]

l see your point.
One still needs to take responsibility for his actions. Look at David. Blessed to lead the people of God, the issue with Bathseba came along, and Nathan exposed him at a later time. What do you think would have happened to God’s chosen if he had died before his repentance?

The idea of the New Covenant is that Jesus bears responsibility for our sins. There’s always been (someone/something else’s) bloodshed involved in getting sins forgiven. But Jesus is the perfect sacrifice for all time. Don’t you realize how screwed we would be if we had to bear responsibility for our own sins? Psalm 130 asks the question, If you, O Lord, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? (The implied answer to this question is nobody. Except Jesus). If David had died at a different time…I don’t know for sure (the Old Covenant is different from the New), but there’s other people in the Hall of Faith who weren’t exactly perfect. Nor was David, for that matter. I don’t believe there were any sacrificial requirements under the Old Covenant requiring absolution of sins just prior to death, and we aren’t under the Old Covenant any longer anyway.

so in addition to works, you need faith, which l omitted, sorry.
But they work hand in hand.

Ephesians 2 says we are not saved by works. I can see how you’d get confused, because right after that it says we are saved “unto good works.” Do you see how that’s different from what you’re saying, though? You’re saying we are saved by works. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not by works…but unto good works. Works are the result of salvation, not the cause.

lf all someone has is faith, and no works

Not possible. If someone says they have faith and the evidence makes it obvious that they don’t, that is a person who does not have faith.

and Jesus does everything for you, without your (name removed by moderator)ut, what about free will?

Check out what compatibilism is. It’s used in a secular/naturalist way as well as in a religious sense, so check it twice.

And when one gets to the Pearly Gates, what testimonial will one produce to hear ‘‘Well done my good and faithful servant’’?
Remember the saying, ‘‘lf you love me, you will do my will’’. Works are involved.

Again, the Bible says we are saved unto good works. It does not say we are saved by good works. (More to the point, the Bible actually does say we are not saved by works. What could possibly be going through you mind when you see that?). They act as evidence of salvation. They are the result of love for God- if we love Him, we keep His commands. But it doesn’t work in reverse. Keeping God’s commands does not promise to lead to love for God, nor do good works promise to lead to salvation. Salvation leads to good works, and love for God leads to obedience.

Works are “involved” (in a loose sense), as you say, but they are not the cause of salvation. A better word would be “associated” instead of involved. You’re arguing that the nature of good works’ “involvement” is that of causing a person to become saved. But the Bible says something different. With reference to salvation, it is “not by works.” It then says we are saved “unto good works,” telling us very plainly the manner in which works are associated with salvation.

As to what happens when we get to heaven, there is a judgment (Judgment Seat of Christ) involving varying levels of rewards for what was done while alive. But in order to even “play the game,” you have to be saved in the first place. If you aren’t saved by grace through faith, you go to a different judgment (Great White Throne) where there are no rewards but punishments. As for the “If you love me you will keep my commands” statement, I can’t figure out why you think this is inconsistent with anything I’m saying. Love leads to action. Faith leads to works. One leads to the other. It’s true. But it doesn’t work in reverse. Again, quoting Ephesians 2: “Not by works…unto good works.”

Of course, the main point of this thread is that I can know I am saved, and this particular passage was written for that very reason. John- and God- wanted us to know that we have eternal life, and 1 John 5 tells us how we can know. Just a friendly reminder about what the OP is. Do you know that you are saved? If you’re not sure- if you’re at a point where you’re just hoping your good works are good enough- 1 John 5 is written to those who believe that you may know that you have eternal life. If you’d like to be one who knows, study the preceding verses.

 

[mmmcounts]

No one knows for sure! You can’t be 100% sure you are going to Heaven.

Did you read the OP? 1 John 5 is written to those who believe that we may know that we have eternal life. I made that verse a bigger size and everything. I also color-coded the earlier verses though, because those are the ones that tell us how to do…something…you say can’t be done. :whacky:

As St. Paul says, we can work out our salvation with fear and trembling and hope for salvation when we die.

Paul said the first part. He did not say the second part. Instead, following the “fear and trembling” part, he says “for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.” That is something the RCC doesn’t particularly emphasize, but that’s not the point of the thread.

On your pop quiz question: Where is that question in the bible? I don’t think you can find that one! But to answer that, I would say that I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against me, but that doesn’t mean that I am aquitted. Only the Lord judges me!

It’s not found in the Bible. The test metaphor came up between me and someone else. Read back to earlier posts if you want to make better sense of it.

If you still aren’t 100% sure that you have eternal life even though you have believed and are born again, a quick read through 1 John 5 should help with that. It is written that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Tonks40]

Of course we have eternal life…but where? Would it be separate from God for all eternity (i.e. hell) or with Him in Paradise?

 

[Benadam]

I wonder…I can’t think of any something that I can possibly be a part of the isn’t a work . What isn’t a work?

Can we do anything that isn’t a work?..lol

I think…nope …it tkes human effort to think doesn’t it?..to believe …faith without works …can we be saved without an act of faith?..faith without works…impossible

 

[joe370]

**And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. **

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone… through the Spirit.

The Church, Jesus built, circa 33 AD, is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and and Prophets, with Jesus Christ as the Divine Cornerstone, indispensably ballasting and anchoring the Church -----all done, through the Holy Spirit.

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Here we see that prophecy never had/has its origin in the will of men; men spoke from God, as they were/are guided by the H.S. The bible tells us that the H.S. is teaching and guiding (just as He did with the prophets of old) —Jesus’ One (Jesus built just one church, did He not?) —Apostolic Church, starting at Pentecost and ending at Jesus’ return, when He will separate the chaff from the wheat and present His Church to Himself in all its glory, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind, but holy and without fault. Therefore, the Apostolic Church, spoke, and still speaks, from God as they were/are carried along by the Holy Spirit.

The birth of Jesus’ One Apostolic Church took place at Pentecost and has survived, and will continue to survive, through every century, under the anti-Christ’s never-ending onslaught, thanks to the indisputable fact that Jesus is the Savior of His Church; the anti-Christ is responsible for many individual apostasies, through every century, and he will continue to do so, for that is his number one task:

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

When the day of Pentecost came, they (did your church exist when this event took place?) --were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Hence, the birth of Jesus’ One Apostolic Church…

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me…But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.** And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."**

The prophets of old, were guided by the Holy Spirit, just a the Apostolic Church was/is “guided” by the Holy Spirit in perpetuity!

If your church can’t trace it’s origin all the way back to Pentecost, then, logically speaking, their prophecy (inspired message) – has its origin in the will of man. That is the very reason why the non-Catholic churches are so fractured. IMHO Either that, or Jesus lied when He said:

…it remains with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. If Jesus, eventually left His Church --His Mystical Body at some undisclosed time in history, how can He still be the Savior of His Mystical Body --the Savior of His One Church? Did He pack up and leave --setting up shop in some man-made church? If so then which one?

Jesus said:

I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Which means His Apostolic Church can’t fail --Period! So, why would He leave His Church --leave His Mystical Body? People can certainly leave His Church, ignoring the fact that He said, nothing will ever vanquish the Church He built circa 33 AD, thanks to the greatest gift He ever gave us (other than Himself) —FREE WILL!

Jesus also said:

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Find Jesus’ Apostolic Church in the world today and you will find the Church that spoke/speaks from God as they were/are carried along by the Holy Spirit.

And remember, Jesus said, vis-a-vis His One Apostolic Church, established circa 33 AD:

…behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Seems pretty cut and dried,if you ask me.

 

[LittleDeb]

Not possible. If someone says they have faith and the evidence makes it obvious that they don’t, that is a person who does not have faith.

Sorry but St. James disagrees with you. He wrote Scripture. I believe him over you.

James said that it is a dead faith to not have works. Nowhere does he say, “it wasn’t faith in the first place.” He gives the analogy of a body and spirit. He says that a body without a spirit is a dead body. His analogy doesn’t work if he were saying, “it wasn’t a body in the first place.”

And I will honor your request to answer your question since I posted in your thread. There is no contradiction. We have a moral assurance of salvation. It is an if/then statement, always has been. (Commonly used in mathematics.) As has already been pointed out, **IF **we do what is asked, THEN we are saved. Some great theologians are also mathematicians.

Catholic understanding uses reason, not emotive statements that incite warm-fuzzy, false knowledge.

 

[joe370]

**Not possible. If someone says they have faith and the evidence makes it obvious that they don’t, that is a person who does not have faith.
**
So, the evidence that makes it obvious that they don’t have faith --is lack of good works? No good works is tantamount to --no faith in Christ?

In other words, good works means one has faith in Christ? If good works is necessary to have faith in Christ, then good works is absolutely necessary --right?

 

[mmmcounts]

In this post, I’ll address this source. catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

The “knowability” of salvation is a different question than the “loseability” of salvation.

I agree that they are different questions. So I’ll try to follow my own advice and stay on topic. Let’s go with the “knowability” issue.

Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter…there is a false assurance: “The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).”

Genuine assurance is possible for everyone. It is even possible for the people who say “Lord, Lord.” They thought they knew what had to happen in order to have eternal life, but they didn’t. That’s why 1 John 5 is written: So that we may know. If you ask the right questions of yourself (helpfully provided in 1 John 5) and answer honestly, you may know that you have eternal life. Some people will ask themselves different questions that are the wrong questions to ask. Naturally, they will arrive at the wrong conclusion. That doesn’t stop other people from asking the right questions and coming to the right conclusion. 1 John 5 gives us the tools to do this, and we should use them as they are meant to be used: “so that you may know that you have eternal life.” The text states of itself that this is why it is written. Are you suggesting that it’s not entirely serious? At first, the link affirms that John means what he says.

One can be confident of one’s present salvation.

Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation.

Ah, but it gets dicey already. I guess I can’t go much further without going into the “loseability of salvation” issue. So I won’t go there.

It looks like Catholics have not one but three different kinds of salvation.

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved, but I’m also being saved, and I have the hope that I will be saved. Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling, with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ.”

I guess that’s good to know. Apparently, salvation through Jesus is just the first salvation. The second salvation is one where we are our own saviors through good works. The third salvation is in purgatory, I guess. It’s nice to understand Catholic soteriology a little more.

But let’s take one more look at 1 John 5. I’ll humor you for a moment and pretend there are 3 different kinds of salvation. Which one do you suppose he’s talking about? The word “salvation” is actually not found in 1 John 5 in any translation, so we have to make do with the words he does use: “Eternal life.” He has written these things so that we may know that we have eternal life. This can only be the “third kind”- a guarantee of life spent eternally in the presence of God.

The first “kind” of salvation is described all the way back in verse 1. That’s the bit about belief. Verse three alludes to obedience to God’s commands, which is the natural result of love for God. Catholics imagine that this is another kind of salvation, though it’s pretty clear that good works are the result of salvation and evidence of its reality, not its cause. But if the Catholic reply is given as stated in the source, verse three is where we would find the “second salvation.”

As we read through verses 12 and 13, it becomes quite clear that if there are three different salvations, this is the third one. Eternal life. This is the one that Catholic doctrine says we cannot possibly be 100% sure on. This is where it makes the distinction.

We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. There is the possibility of self-deception.

True, some people will deceive themselves. However, it does not follow that it is impossible for anyone else to have an infallible certitude of eternal life. The Bible is infallible. And one part of it “is written so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Follow the logic of this with me, please. I assert that it is possible for everyone to have eternal life. There are some who will not have eternal life, though. Does this mean everyone else is incapable of having eternal life? I should hope not. Likewise, if we take 1 John 5 for what it says it is…

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

…you’d be right in saying not all believers will know. Does this mean all the other believers are incapable of knowing they have eternal life? The source that you’ve provided suggests that this is the case. This conclusion is not logically sound, and I hope I have proven this to your satisfaction.

John wasn’t lying. Believers may know that they have eternal life. Not all will, but that doesn’t mean they never had a chance. 1 John clearly says they do, and that is why he writes these things- to provide that chance. And that is exactly what RCC doctrine denies, right there in the source you gave me.

Who says RCC doctrine never denies what the Bible says? I provide Scripture, you provide RCC doctrine, and look what happens. We get to see exactly how the latter denies the former. Hope you had as much fun as I did.

 

[Vincent]

The RCC says we can’t know that we have eternal life at any point before we die, nor will we actually have eternal life until some time after we die.

That’s another “knowability” issue: how do you know that?

Would you provide a citation from “The RCC” — The Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Roman Catechism, the conciliar documents of Trent or Vatican II, papal encyclicals, etc . . . that unambiguously states, “we can’t know that we have eternal life at any point before we die, nor will we actually have eternal life until some time after we die” ?

 

[mmmcounts]

**So, the evidence that makes it obvious that they don’t have faith --is lack of good works? No good works is tantamount to --no faith in Christ?
**

No good works is tantamount to no faith in Christ. If you have faith, good works will result. Eph. 2:10. Of course, it also mentions predestination, and I don’t know how comfortable you are with that.

In other words, good works means one has faith in Christ?

 

[mmmcounts]

That’s another “knowability” issue: how do you know that?

Would you provide a citation from “The RCC” — The Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Roman Catechism, the conciliar documents of Trent or Vatican II, papal encyclicals, etc . . . that unambiguously states, “we can’t know that we have eternal life at any point before we die, nor will we actually have eternal life until some time after we die” ?

Look at the top of the post. The link there is the one I was given by Catholics in this forum. It’s been pasted on the thread in its entirety, or something very close to it. I’m working with what I’ve been given. I re-quoted parts of it in the post you’re talking about. That’s what I’m pulling from.