Catholics, what do you do with 1 John 5? It contradicts RCC doctrine concerning the assurance of salvation. See for yourself.

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Randy_Carson said:
Nancy-

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as the Way (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those who followed Christ began to be called Christians beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26).

What you do not realize is that as early as 107 A.D., that same group was referred to as the Catholic Church. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote, “You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])

Notice that Ignatius does not introduce the term “Catholic Church”; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. That means that the Christian assembly was probably calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century.

As a side note, it is interesting that the believers in Antioch coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church”.

As for where we got the Bible, there is no question that it was inspired by God. However, it was written by men, and these men were thoroughly Catholic. As one famous person wrote, “We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists [Catholics]–that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it.” (Commentary on St. John, ch. 16)

Who was that famous person? Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant Reformation.
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Peter was a Bishop and I understand so why do we follow Popes? why did whoever change that?
 
Randy_Carson said:
Truthseeker-

Thanks for your question…you are seeking truth, and I appreciate that.

There is no dichotomy between following Jesus and following the Bishops of the Church. Several passages of scripture suggest this. For example:

Luke 10:16
He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.

Jesus tells the disciples that whoever listens them them listens to Him. Pretty clear language, I think.

1 John 4:6
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Here John suggests that one way of discerning who the real Christians are is by determining who listens to himself and the other Apostles. Pretty sobering, eh?

But perhaps the most important passage is this one:

John 21:15-19
When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

In this passage, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Who feeds, tends and cares for sheep? A shepherd!

We know that Jesus is the Good Shepherd and that there is one Shepherd and one flock (cf. John 10). Yet, in the passage above, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Peter becomes the shepherd who will lead the flock after Jesus’ ascension. Therefore, while Jesus is forever our Good Shepherd reigning from heaven, He has made provision for us by naming someone else to stand in His place, to be His vicar, here on earth. The Vicar of Christ established by Jesus is the Pope of the Catholic Church.

Therefore, not only does Peter (and his successors, the Popes) hold the keys to the kingdom of God (cf. Mt 16:18, Is. 22:22), but he holds the shepherd’s crook or crozier, as well.
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Thank you.

I am sorry I need to go now. I will talk to you later.

God Bless.
 
Randy_Carson said:
This is a good question. Understanding the transition from the Apostles to the Bishops of the Church is important, so I’ll give you a link to an article that discusses it in depth.

**Successors of the Apostles **
By Jimmy Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0107bt.asp
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Hi I went to the site it didn’t talk about the Pope But I looked up Shepherds crook or crozier and then Pope and he is a Bishop,I never realized that.He bears the staff as shepherd of the flock of God and links symbolically as the holder with Christ. Now that I understand,I would like to know why you call him Father? Jesus said call no man father but the Father in Heaven,right?:confused:
 
mmmcounts said:
If you plan on posting on this thread, plan on answering that question. If you can’t figure out what to do with the passage, don’t post. Go away. If you do post, try to stay on topic.
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Does this militant atheist have assurance of salvation? Why or why not? The key to your dilemma lies in your answer.
 
nancy_dalrymple said:
Now that I understand,I would like to know why you call him Father? Jesus said call no man father but the Father in Heaven,right?:confused:
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Yes, the Bishop of Rome is also known as the Pope…not the other way around.

As for calling no man father, I will give you a couple of responses…the first heavy on scripture.

Call No Man Your Father

Matthew 23:8-10
8"But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ (Gr. rabbi) for you have only one Master (Gr. didaskalos, kathegetes) and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ (Gr. patera) for you have one Father (Gr. pater), and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ (Gr. kathegetai) for you have one Teacher (Gr. kathegetes), the Christ.” (NIV)

Matthew 23:8-10
8”But be not ye called Rabbi (Gr. rabbi): for one is your Master (Gr. didaskalos, kathegetes), even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father (Gr. patera) upon the earth: for one is your Father (Gr. pater), which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters (Gr. kathegetai) : for one is your Master (Gr. kathegetes), even Christ.” (KJV)

Based on the preceding passage, many non-Catholics claim that the Catholic Church violates the scriptural prohibition against calling anyone “father” since its priests are commonly called “father” and the pope is referred to as the “Holy Father.” Is this really what the Bible teaches? Let’s take a closer look at this issue by reviewing not just a single verse but all that the Bible contains on this subject.

Ephesians 4:11-13
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers (Gr. didaskalovs), 12to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, says that God has established some people as “teachers” in the Church; this appears to be a direct violation of Jesus’ prohibition against calling anyone “teacher”. Does God contradict Himself?

James 3:1
1Not many of you should presume to be teachers (Gr. didaskaloi), my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

James, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, says that not many believers should presume to be “teachers.” This implies that a few (though not many) should and would rightfully have that position. Does God contradict Himself?

Luke 16:24
24So he called to him, “Father (Gr. pater) Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.”

Jesus tells a parable in which He has one of the characters speak to “Father Abraham” which would obviously be a bad example for His audience. Does Jesus contradict Himself?

(cont.)
 
Romans 4:1-18
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father (Gr. patera) of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

In this passage, Paul refers to Abraham as a spiritual father eight times. This is a terrible precedent to establish if Jesus has prohibited us from using the term “father.”

James 2:21
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, refers to the spiritual fatherhood of Abraham. This is a terrible precedent to establish if Jesus has prohibited us from using the term “father.”

1 Corinthians 4:14-15
14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers (Gr. pateras), for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

In this passage, Paul refers to himself as the spiritual father of the Corinthians. This is a terrible precedent to establish if Jesus has prohibited us from using the term “father.”
 
Call No Man Father – Another View
Originally posted by Pax in the Catholic Answers Forum

In Jesus time, there were a number of Jewish sects: the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots.

These sects had schools or houses of teaching within them. Within the Pharisees there were two famous rival houses.
They were the House of Shammai and the House of Hillel. The individuals that these houses were named after were considered the “father” of the house.

Jesus warns the apostles not to be fathers to “separate” houses—for there is but one house of the Lord. Jesus also says to call no man “teacher” or “master.” This is interesting because the Apostle Paul was taught by Gamaliel (cf. Acts 22:3), a Pharisee from the House of Hillel. Gamaliel, the grandson of Hillel, was known as an elder and had the title of “Rabban” which means “Our Master.” This title explains why Jesus also said call no one “master”; there is but one house and one master of all. Jesus prayed for unity (cf. John 17) and did not want the apostles to set up separate houses or schools of thought.

This is clearly expressed in Paul’s complaint in 1 Corinthians 1:10-15 when he describes how some are arguing their superiority after being baptized by, and belonging to, Paul or Apollos, or Cephas, etc. Paul goes on elsewhere to warn against factions and divisions and stresses the importance of one mind and unity of doctrine.

The meaning of “call no man father, teacher, or master” concerns unity and consistency of doctrine and has nothing to do with the commonly used references that are seen elsewhere in scripture or everyday use.
 
Benadam said:
That’s too funny and I’m really trying not to laugh. Perfect way to respond to Benedictus’ comment.
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The photo is rather sad. It depicts the Protestant mindset of Christianity being merely a religion of the book and denies Christ who established one, and only one, visible and authoritative teaching Church, the Catholic Church - the pillar and foundation of truth.
 
Interesting Point-it Is True That Satan Recognizes Christ Yet Is Not Saved. Makes Sense To Me So It Goes To Show You That There Is More To It Than Belief. Now That Leads Me To The Next Query–what Is Of The Soul Of Judas Iscariot-does This Same Principle Apply?
 
The way I understand eternal life is when you become born again you recieve the Holy Spirit and he gives you a new heart and your a new creature in Christ,His Spirit gives us wisdom He quickens our mortal bodies,He helps us to understand His word he also helps us in prayer.He also helps us to love God and others.We also become members of His family i think these are aspects of eternal life ,of course how much we continue in His Spirit depends on us,He speaks of quenching His spirit and grieving Him by allowing sin in our lives,so we should be quick to confess our sin to Him and ask Him to help us repent of it,God said he will clennse us from all unrightousness if we ask.
 
KLIBERA said:
Interesting Point-it Is True That Satan Recognizes Christ Yet Is Not Saved. Makes Sense To Me So It Goes To Show You That There Is More To It Than Belief. Now That Leads Me To The Next Query–what Is Of The Soul Of Judas Iscariot-does This Same Principle Apply?
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Denial of what we are made of makes us blind to the behaviours that mark a soul experiencing condemnation, blinds us to the evil that hates God in ‘spite’ of His love.
 
KLIBERA said:
Interesting Point-it Is True That Satan Recognizes Christ Yet Is Not Saved. Makes Sense To Me So It Goes To Show You That There Is More To It Than Belief. Now That Leads Me To The Next Query–what Is Of The Soul Of Judas Iscariot-does This Same Principle Apply?
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🙂 Hi KLIBERA, Judas Iscariot I believe was forgiven because he did regreat what he did and proberly had a little help in his hanging. he through the money back he could have kept it but you know the story. I beleive he was the weekest to use and was dishonest enough for satan to enter in,and so he did.I think we’ll be pritty surprised when we get to heaven at who we will find there and who will be missing.Satan not only recognises Christ but he immitates him too!👍
 
nancy_dalrymple said:
🤷 I went to your site Thank You.The reason I dont like to go to the sites of any organization is they claim to add or subtract and it’s good to try the spirit to see if there realy is truth as they claim,we all have that right. Also I learned alot by praying and asking God,what I did learn of the Baptist or non denominations were not lies it was in the scriptures and I did the best I could Maybe I shouldn’t ask questions on the forum?Maybe a Jewish forum could answer without Pregidest,remarks. I beleive I mentioned that on my last post?
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How do you know that what the Baptist taught you are not lies.

The Baptists denomination you are member of is probably only 500 years old.

Christ’s Church was established 2000 years ago. It is to this church that Christ gave the promise to lead into truth.

The Baptist Church is separated from Christ’s Church so it only has part of the truth.

Yes, you have been fed lies by the Baptists but I think you would rather beileve their lies because you are afraid of the truth.

Perhaps because the truth is hard to follow?
 
nancy_dalrymple said:
I’m sorry I had to but in. Scott you seem to beleive that the bible comes from the Catholics rather then from God which would make the word void. If you think salvation only comes from the Catholic church than read 1st Timothy:2:15 and refute that. Nancy also 1John:5 is the inspired word of God.🙂
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Nancy,

Please answer this question.

Did Jesus write the Gospels. Did He have a secretary who took down His dictation and then came up with the Bible?
 
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