Catholics, what do you do with 1 John 5? It contradicts RCC doctrine concerning the assurance of salvation. See for yourself.

[SallyMargie]

The wrongdoing of individuals claiming to be Catholic does not nullify the infallible teaching of Jesus contained in the Catholic Church. It is wrong to lay the sins of evildoers at the feet of Christ. He is the Head of the Body, which is where the infallibility comes from.

Such a statement is like saying that, because Judas betrayed the Lord, His teaching was not valid.

It’s also important to remember that the media will make sure it is constantly repeated (ad nauseum) whenever anything negative is said about the Catholic Church. For example, the sexual abuse by priests was blown totally out of proportion. I believe the actual figure was less than 1% of all priests were involved, but to hear it from the media, all priests are suspect. Also, many nonCatholic churches have a higher rate of abuse. And public schools have a higher rate yet. But you won’t hear that from the liberal media.
Note I’m not saying no priests were guilty, but many were also falsely accused. I know 2 priests personally who were falsely accused of sexual abuse.

 

[johnpaul87]

You wont’t be able to do that because you know zilch, nothing, zero about Catholic stuff.

hey ben, my computer shut off yesterday. my 30 day trial XP ended. im on friends computer. say, am i a bad guy cause i dont know all the things about the catholic religion? ive been reading up on it furiously. i wont even go into it now. im finding out about what the vatican has been up to though. tisk tisk

 

[johnpaul87]

And what makes you take I have the heebee jeebees about being saved. Surely you are not that ignorant. But then again you probably are.

Invitinng Jesus iin does not “get you saved”. But of course believe it does considering that you follow the father of lies.

say ben, that hurts. you must have forgot that jesus said if any man come to me, i will in no wise cast out. you must be born again to enter heaven. jesus was rite about the big religious people; matthew 23; 13

 

[johnpaul87]

Nancy, Guanophore is probably one o fthe most patient posters in this thread. If he gave johnpaul87 the “bums rush”, johnpaul87 deserved it. He lies. It totally puzzles me why he cannot even tell the truth over something as simple as his denomination. This is how the devil works. In lies.

hey ben, well, i was kicked out of the catholic church, for the time being, by members in here. so, i dont belong to a religion, so how can i lie about it? what about your religion.? my grandma used to say…those who live in glass houses shouldnt throw rocks.

 

[johnpaul87]

The Pope and Magisterium provide infallible teachings (both oral and written) and they are the trustees of the deposit of faith of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. These teachings are free form error (infallible). The Holy Spirit protects the Church and prevents her from teaching error.

Individual members of her Church are not necessarily impeccable (free from sin). Some do sin grievous sins. They should not sin, but they do. They should be good examples of conduct instead of scandalous examples of conduct.

Pax,
SHW

hey SHW, so the holy ghost hovers over the Church and protects it from error. do you watch the news? forget the news. lets see what jesus said. a tree cannot bring forth good fruit and evil. a well cannot put forth sweet water and bitter. if a tree has evil fruit, it is evil, from top to bottom

 

[Jimdandy]

If you repent of your sins, are baptized and believe that Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus puts His Holy Spirit in you-His Love, His LIFE-His grace-and each time you receive any of the sacraments while in a state of this grace your attachment to Jesus becomes stronger-only committing a grievous offense with sure knowledge
and full consent will separate you completely from God-

 ( the seal of the Holy Spirit leaves an indelible mark forever)

what you choose to do from then on determines where you will spend eternity-with or without Him

Choose LIFE

 

[atassina]

Will someone clearly and precisely state the theological point we are discussing.

“What do you do with” is conversational English. We are having a long winding conversation. We need an exact focus so that we can arrive at a conclusion.

Thanks,
Anthony

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

no guano, ill check myself if i start to sound like im preaching. i speak what i learned from the Father, the one who you also look to. being upset with me is missing the point.im just a slave. if you dont like my message, well, take it up with my boss. anyway, jesus said…no man is above his master. if they hate me, they will hate you.

Guano,I"m sorry to disturb you but I was thinking of going back to the Catholic Church that’s why I’m at this forum but now you say you are not bible Christians? That’s rather disturbing for I believe in sound doctrine and the Bible is a very big part of my life.love of Christ Nancy.
johnpaul87, Where did you see Jesus? do not decieve anyone for we are serious about Christ and the Word of God. If it is true then you wont mind telling us all about it and remember God is no respector of men,he cares for us all that believe on his Son I cannot say God Bless You untill I know your for real Be careful where you cast your pearls. Nancy P.S.Are you JS?

 

[johnpaul87]

Guano,I"m sorry to disturb you but I was thinking of going back to the Catholic Church that’s why I’m at this forum but now you say you are not bible Christians? That’s rather disturbing for I believe in sound doctrine and the Bible is a very big part of my life.love of Christ Nancy.
johnpaul87, Where did you see Jesus? do not decieve anyone for we are serious about Christ and the Word of God. If it is true then you wont mind telling us all about it and remember God is no respector of men,he cares for us all that believe on his Son I cannot say God Bless You untill I know your for real Be careful where you cast your pearls. Nancy P.S.Are you JS?

hi nancy, whats JS? i didnt see jesus with my eyes. jesus the holy ghost will manifest himself in those who open the door. some people ask and dont get it. gods knows the heart.i met him when i was 16 at some festival. but the ghost came on me later that nite on my ride home. everything was just different. i couldsee evil in things i didnt befor. i saw the vanity in everything. and i could ask god things and have them answered. hes never let me down since. he lets you know its him youre dealing with. no jive.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Guano,I"m sorry to disturb you but I was thinking of going back to the Catholic Church that’s why I’m at this forum but now you say you are not bible Christians? That’s rather disturbing for I believe in sound doctrine and the Bible is a very big part of my life.love of Christ Nancy.

He didn’t say that. It is good to hear of your inquiring into Catholicism, RCIA is also a good place to find answers as well as to see faith in action and one is not required to become Catholic if enrolled. In responding to Bible Christians, we are not “Bible only” as those who reject the authority of the Catholic Church. Our beef with JP87 involves obfuscations as the posts are decidedly not Catholic despite being registered Catholic, among other indicators of untruth. We are all here to learn more of our faith and each other, hard to do if one is trolling to disrupt fellow posters.

johnpaul87, Where did you see Jesus? do not decieve anyone for we are serious about Christ and the Word of God. If it is true then you wont mind telling us all about it and remember God is no respector of men,he cares for us all that believe on his Son I cannot say God Bless You untill I know your for real Be careful where you cast your pearls. Nancy P.S.Are you JS?

We are not to post private revelations even if true. Any serious discussion of doctrine involves give and take in honesty and humility as we are all fallible by nature and any lack of humility can mislead yourself and those you lead into presumption.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

hi nancy, whats JS? i didnt see jesus with my eyes. jesus the holy ghost will manifest himself in those who open the door. some people ask and dont get it. gods knows the heart.i met him when i was 16 at some festival. but the ghost came on me later that nite on my ride home. everything was just different. i couldsee evil in things i didnt befor. i saw the vanity in everything. and i could ask god things and have them answered. hes never let me down since. he lets you know its him youre dealing with. no jive.

Ask and you shall receive is a promise, all who ask are given even if it takes a while to be disposed to accept it.

St. John states in 1 John 4:1 that we should test every spirit. This is the basis used by St. Faustina in her diary on Divine Mercy when Jesus tells her to test her revelations with her confessor. As Catholics, we can see the wisdom of this as Satan too is a spirit and can lead one astray. He is the father of lies and all LIES are of him. Testing spirits as the basis for the Churches authority is that we have no ability in our fallen nature to be assured we are being led to perdition. The Bible as sole authority is left wanting as those who propose this are left with a myriad of competing and decidedly opposing “opinions”. The word “opinions” is used here as the ONENESS of the Holy Spirit is ONE only in the Church founded on the Apostle Peter. This is why 1 John 5 does not contradict Catholic doctrine, the entire Bible is used in Catholic doctrine and not just pieces of it, as in proof texting to fit a presupposition.

 

[guanophore]

Yes it is. When asked if they are saved, Catholics are instructed to respond

Can you please tell me where in the Catechism I can find this instruction? I can’t seem to locate it.

by saying they are currently saved (a process which has been completed by Jesus),

this is incorrect, which is one reason I wonder where the “instruction can be found”. We are justified by the blood of Christ when we are baptized into his death. Baptism is an event, not a “process”

they are also currently being saved (a different process that began after the first one ended and may or may not be completed),

This is also an error. Sanctification does begin at the moment of baptism, but it is not “different” or separated from justification.
It is true, though, that some are cut off from grace.

and they will be saved by an entirely different process after death- after the second process ends.

This is also false. Glorification is not “different” in character (being a free gift based on his grace) from justification and sanctification.

Three processes. Separate processes.

False. Salvation includes justificaiton, sanctification, and glorification. All of them together, the same process. The same spirit that works all of them in us.

The first process happens. It is completed. It is done.

i think it is more proper to refer to baptism as an event. howeve,r i agree, it is completed/done.

No longer happening. Can’t happen again.

The grace that begins to work in us when we are justified continues to work. While we have no need to be baptized again, the grace that is at work in us continues to conform us into the the image and likeness of God.

The second process begins. It is ongoing until death. Then that’s over.

This is not catholic. It may be your own theology? For Catholics, sanctification is tied intracely to justification. Those who are not justified cannot be sanctified. They are not separated.

The Catholic Church also teaches that some continue to be purified after death.

Obviously, sanctification and good works can't happen after you're dead.

how is that obvious?

After that, a third process begins. Once that’s over, you get to be with God. All three separate processes are referred to as different kinds of salvation.

None of this is Catholic. I am not sure where you are getting it.

Catholics don’t refer to these events as “diffferent kinds” of salvation.

And I got to see it because of a link to a helpful site which has been quoted in its entirety on this thread. Parts of it are on here two or three (or five or six) times. It even tells you exactly what to say to a fundamentalist who asks you if you’re saved. Give it a read. It’s RCC approved.

I am not sure which link this is, but if your understanding and representation of it is accurate, then it is putting out erroneous information.

 

[johnpaul87]

Ask and you shall receive is a promise, all who ask are given even if it takes a while to be disposed to accept it.

St. John states in 1 John 4:1 that we should test every spirit. This is the basis used by St. Faustina in her diary on Divine Mercy when Jesus tells her to test her revelations with her confessor. As Catholics, we can see the wisdom of this as Satan too is a spirit and can lead one astray. He is the father of lies and all LIES are of him. Testing spirits as the basis for the Churches authority is that we have no ability in our fallen nature to be assured we are being led to perdition. The Bible as sole authority is left wanting as those who propose this are left with a myriad of competing and decidedly opposing “opinions”. The word “opinions” is used here as the ONENESS of the Holy Spirit is ONE only in the Church founded on the Apostle Peter. This is why 1 John 5 does not contradict Catholic doctrine, the entire Bible is used in Catholic doctrine and not just pieces of it, as in proof texting to fit a presupposition.

hey, i learned that he catholics teach peter came to rome. its historical fact the peter never made it to rome.

 

[guanophore]

The Catholic description of salvation says there is belief, then sanctification, then salvation post-death.

Can you please show where you found this 'Catholic description"? it is not consistent with anything I have ever seen…

Those look like separate processes to me,

Ahhh! So, maybe this is a product of your imagination?

but I’m open to other ideas. Let me give you some options.

First, the “believe and receive” step. Process. Whatever. You believe in Jesus, and you receive salvation.

This is not consistent with Apostolic teaching.

Is this complete salvation? Are you only partially saved? Most Catholics will say it is complete salvation and would deny that they are only partially saved.

I cannot deny that “most Catholics” are poorly catechized. Such a travesty in no way makes this information true.

Most would also deny the need to believe in Jesus a second time and be saved again. It’s something you do once.

This is wrong. “Most Catholics” do not even believe this error!

You believe once, you receive once, and you receive it all.

Are you trying to compare/contrast this Calvanistic idea to the Apostolic teaching?

 If you feel that you need to "believe and receive" again, it's probably because you misunderstood the nature of what it means to believe on Jesus and receive salvation.

This describes reformed doctrine well.

The church leaders on here have probably dealt with this before.

Really? This is a first for me! I was sure that you made up all these outlandish ideas!

Step two is sanctification. You do good works, and this process also leads to salvation. Is this the same type of salvation that you received when you first believed?

Such a question is like, ‘when did you stop beating your wife’. It is trying to draw a false conclusion from a false premise.

If so, that necessarily means you were only partially saved. If you really were completely saved before and now there’s more salvation, one is Salvation A and the other is Salvation B.

i agree, which is how we know the whole thing is false.

Now, I know someone on here is going to say “It’s not a new kind of salvation; it’s just maintenance of the salvation you already had. You can lose your salvation, and sanctification causes you to persevere and not lose what you have.” Well, in that case, the process of sanctification does not give you salvation.

I think this is true. I think salvation is given to us through the grace of God, through the merits of Jesus on the Cross.

It only allows you to keep the salvation you already had. Is the message the RCC is trying to send?

No, but it does seem like a very distorted understanding of it.

The message I’ve been getting is that a person must carry out works in exchange for salvation,

Yes, it has certainly become clear that you are getting a message that is contrary to the Catholic teaching.

and that the process of sanctification is one of "becoming saved." Meaning you're receiving salvation and being saved right now.

i think this is probably the most accurate thing you have said so far

So either the first process left you “partially saved” (which I doubt any Catholic will profess)

only one that is very poorly informed about their faith.

 or you really are fully saved when you believe and the process of sanctification is one that Does Not grant salvation,

this is not quite accruate either.

but is one of perseverance- where you’re keeping the salvation that you already had. (If that’s what you decide on, you’re dangerously close to agreeing with me in saying “works don’t lead to salvation.”) Those are the only two options I can suggest.

Why would you wish to “suggest options” ??? Does it not make more sense to actually look at what the Church teaches, instead of using your personal perceptions and suggestions?

 

[guanophore]

Of course, the third option is one where there are two processes that give you two different salvations. But it looks like that one didn’t go over too well. So we’ll explore other options. I’m open to your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I think the (name removed by moderator)ut that was suggested already is the best. Read the catechism.

Overall, I guess

I think this might be the crux of the problem.

it's just something that Catholics refer to as another kind of salvation, while I just refer to it as dying and going to be with the Lord.

No.

  It's a promise that God keeps because I'm saved. **According to me, anyway**.

Is that what matters most? You ‘guess’? “suggestions”? “personal opinion”?

So I have to go back to the same two possibilities as before.

Actually, you don’t. You could relinquish all this speculation, and just receive the faith committed to us by the Apostles.

(Third option- not so popular around here- it’s a different kind of salvation added to the first two. But you guys don’t seem to like that one).

Our “likes” and "dislikes’ are irrelevant. It is a matter of the Teaching of Jesus.

Anyway, if you’re going to refer to events past death as “salvation,” you have to somehow avoid saying you were only partially saved up to that point and still find a reason to call it salvation. Otherwise, you’re stuck with calling it a separate kind of salvation.

Sorry, mmm. We are not "stuck’ with your inadequate and erroneous conceptualizations.

 

[SallyMargie]

thanks real, you will be in my prayers too. i strated to go to mass again. so im learning cathoilic doctrine. why did all those old guys bother with coming up with a bunch of wild ideas. why not just leave the worship service alone. the early church was worshiping jesus. but it looks like well meaning guys started coming up with all sorts of stuff.ascention of mary, i found out last nite, was just thought up around 1890 or so. please dont get me started on papal infallability. i was history student in college. i dont want to get kicked out of here. i think i can mention one thing though…st bartholemews day massacre. look it up. but not in a catholic site. long time ago i took som kid to the library. while i was standing around i saw a book on the inquisition. i thumbed thru it. it said all the inquisitors did was just asked questions and then let the people go. inquiring if they did such and so. simple. no harm, no foul. i looked at who published it. the catholic press.no bias there

Please remember, though, that if there is any group which is misjudged and attacked, it is, first and foremost, the Catholic Church. Satan hates it, and will do all he can to attack it and surround it with lies. And as we have seen through the centuries, there is no shortage of hate-mongers who will go right along with that.
If you want to learn about the Lutheran church, you would go to a Lutheran source. If you wanted to learn about the Mormon church, you would go to a Mormon source. If you want to learn about the Catholic Church, you should go to a Catholic source. If you want to know which Church Christ Himself established, just follow history.

 

[1holycatholic]

hey, i learned that he catholics teach peter came to rome. its historical fact the peter never made it to rome.

Where did you learn that?

 

[twb1621]

hi nancy, whats JS? i didnt see jesus with my eyes. jesus the holy ghost will manifest himself in those who open the door. some people ask and dont get it. gods knows the heart.i met him when i was 16 at some festival. but the ghost came on me later that nite on my ride home. everything was just different. i couldsee evil in things i didnt befor. i saw the vanity in everything. and i could ask god things and have them answered. hes never let me down since. he lets you know its him youre dealing with. no jive.

I offered you the thread in Post #838 where you could actually present your honest thoughts and position on being “Born Again” as you have come to believe in the presence of the Holy Spirit but you ignored it anyway. So tell me truthfully, what is it you are trying to do here. Read over your list of responses below and tell me how you could possibly believe you are born again with the Holy Spirit while possessing such distain, judgment and lack of that which the Holy Spirit brings forth within the truly born again being the reflection of Jesus our Christ in Charity, Humility and Compassion. the vast majority of your posts are sarcasm but you want to be taken seriously as a born again Christian?

Your posts;

“one more thing, brother bennedict has refered to me as a liar. thats fine. all men are liars. so obeying the ten commandments will get you into heaven. lets see how honest folks in here are. raise your hand if you have ever bowed and or kneeled in front of a statue. this question goes for brother ben to. for, i never have. but ive broken most of the other ones.”

“one more thing, brother bennedict has refered to me as a liar. thats fine. all men are liars. so obeying the ten commandments will get you into heaven. lets see how honest folks in here are. raise your hand if you have ever bowed and or kneeled in front of a statue. this question goes for brother ben to. for, i never have. but ive broken most of the other ones.”

‘hey SHW, so the holy ghost hovers over the Church and protects it from error. do you watch the news? forget the news. lets see what jesus said. a tree cannot bring forth good fruit and evil. a well cannot put forth sweet water and bitter. if a tree has evil fruit, it is evil, from top to bottom”

“hey ben, well, i was kicked out of the catholic church, for the time being, by members in here. so, i dont belong to a religion, so how can i lie about it? what about your religion.? my grandma used to say…those who live in glass houses shouldnt throw rocks.”

“say ben, that hurts. you must have forgot that jesus said if any man come to me, i will in no wise cast out. you must be born again to enter heaven. jesus was rite about the big religious people; matthew 23; 13”

“hi east, never seen you hear befor. must be new member. welcome, friend.you say the faithful must adhere to morality? which faithfull? the pews or the clergy?”

“yeah thanks for this verse. too bad the unsaved cant understand it. hey SHW, see if you can get me immunity so i can talk freely in thei thread”

“sorry atta, the act of dunking in water doesnt remake you, as in born again.”

“wow jake, you figured me out again.apiscapalian, you found me out.”

“wow john. you summed it up pretty good.lets stick to catholic stuff. none of this other stuff.”

“sorry ata, that made not much sense. ask god to come into you. be born again. then we can talk”

Again, ask your questions and raise your points supporting your beliefs without sarcasm and in honesty if you want serious dialog.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I dont see the humor in laughting at salvation,and bringing the distenton,and vain babbelings here to discuss The Lord with clear mind and conscience. I can tell by alot that is said to the people I love here that it has been an insult for them and I leave you with this 1TIM::6:20 COL:2:8 Love of Christ Nancy Do not take this lightly,johnpaul

 

[twb1621]

hey, i learned that he catholics teach peter came to rome. its historical fact the peter never made it to rome.

Although this is a useless postion to debate, this link will respond to your statement that Peter was never in Rome seeing as how you are raising the question…

its too much to reprint here.

catholic.com/library/Was_Peter_in_Rome.asp