Catholics Without Children-- On Purpose?

[Tink]

Also, I am confused as to why you would adopt when you would not consider having children naturally (and I am all for adoption, it’s wonderful).

As I mentioned in my original post, I have mental health issues which are genetic and am on medication which may harm a developing fetus.

Marriage is not merely a contract to live together and have sex. It is not about whatever tax benefits or other social benefits may accrue to married persons.

I would not get married if that is what it meant.

I really think, given your medical/psychological state and your concerns you need to seek help from a priest and a Catholic counselor… not a web board.

I already mentioned… it’s very difficult for me to find a trustworthy one to talk do. Do you think I’d go to strangers on the internet if I had no other recourse? The Christian couselor I was seeing told me that “manmade rules are not important.”

In none of these scenarios you listed do the couples assert a positive act of the will to exclude children.

Well… if you’re 80, and getting married, you’re probably past your fertile period. Are these people supposed to adopt at this age? Isn’t the mere act of entering a marriage at this age “assert a positive act of the will to exclude children?”

Why can’t “lifegiving” also mean that I contribute to society in susutaining a healthy marriage and through my career calling? (And as a writer/teacher, it certainly wouldn’t be about the money or prestige.)

I guess I haven’t been clear enough about my medical issues here: Severe, chronic depression and obssesive-compulsive disorder. Things that a 30 year old husband can deal with but a 3 year old might not. They are hereditary, and they are chronic. Those of you who have suffered from mental health issues know that this is just as crippling as a missing a major body part. Would God want me to have a child whose mother breaks down in panic attacks? Sure, there are women out there who can handle this. But they may also feel strongly called to motherhood. The combination of these two would not make for a responsible situation were I to have children.

 

[ack]

This is not how I understood it. Can you provide a citation please?

if one goes into the marriage knowing that one is infertile, or with plans to deliberately make oneself infertile, then the marriage is of doubtful validity.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

…If after the wedding one is found to be infertile, that doesn’t invalidate the marriage - but if one goes into the marriage knowing that one is infertile, or with plans to deliberately make oneself infertile, then the marriage is of doubtful validity.

Not infertile.** Impotent.** Big difference. People have to be able to consumate the marriage. They don’t have to be able to necessarily procreate; otherwise, little old white-haired ladies would not be able to marry little old white-haired gentlemen, after their first spouses have died.

 

[jmcrae]

Not infertile.** Impotent.** Big difference. People have to be able to consumate the marriage. They don’t have to be able to necessarily procreate; otherwise, little old white-haired ladies would not be able to marry little old white-haired gentlemen, after their first spouses have died.

Thanks - yes.

 

[chevalier]

All right, let me clear it up:

Infertility: Only invalidity if fertility specifically intended, error induced.

Impotence: Always invalidity, be it absolute or relative impotence.

Exclusion of progeny: Invalidity.

Intention to become infertile includes intention to exclude offspring. Of course, the reason of invalidity in that case would be exclusion of offspring, not intention to be infertile.

Note that exclusion of offspring makes marriage invalid because it removes fertility from the gift of self. The person gives himself except his fertility. This is what it relies on.

 

[LeahInancsi]

As I mentioned in my original post, I have mental health issues which are genetic and am on medication which may harm a developing fetus.

I can really identify with this problem. I have a problem with depression and have to take antidepressants. Furthermore, there is a distinct pattern of depression in my maternal grandfather’s family.

Fortunately, I never married. As I look back, I realize that was for the best. I don’t have to worry about my children inheriting the condition or my ability to cope with the stress of marriage and raising children.

You might want to talk to a psychiatrist regarding the chances of a child inheriting your condition. It might ease your mind in the event that NFP, for example, were to fail and you had a child or two. There’s not a 100% guarantee that your child will be affected.

Good luck and God bless.

 

[LeahInancsi]

Not infertile.** Impotent.** Big difference. People have to be able to consumate the marriage. They don’t have to be able to necessarily procreate; otherwise, little old white-haired ladies would not be able to marry little old white-haired gentlemen, after their first spouses have died.

Is it sinful for an impotent man of any age to marry? Wouldn’t the validity of the marriage come into play in the event of an annulment?

 

[Tink]

It feels very right.

“Feelings” can be persuasive, but are not reliable indicators when at odds with the revealed Truths of the Faith.

I agree that a neither a nation nor a theology should be run on “feelings.” And I can understand if you’re making this argument to an emotional 16 year old who’s thinking about sleeping with her boyfriend on prom night, but in this case, in which a grown woman who has done a great deal of thinking is involved, I find this statement overly simplistic. I think I’ve provided ample evidence that, along with my fiance, I’ve given this issue some very serious reflection and prayer.

And, as a conservative, I can’t believe I’m actually arguing this, but it seems that in decisions of this nature, some allowance for a gut feeling ought to be considered. How did you know that that your vocation was the right one for you? How did you know your spouse was truly sent by God? You probably prayed over it until you experienced some sort of inner peace. Can’t that be considered a “feeling”? Not that logic should be thrown out the window, but should we propose with pie charts? I once asked a nun why she chose the path she did, and one of the first words out of her mouth was “felt.” I doubt that invalidates her choice. Perhaps the word “feel” is overused in our society, but I think I’ve demonstrated in earlier posts that I’m not just operating with my id here.

Re: The TwoDay method-- This is a 96% effective form of NFP recently unveiled by researches at Georgetown. It was developed for women like me with irregular periods and sleep modes, and for use by those who may not have the educational means to practice other methods. Link: irh.org/RTP-TDM.htm

Yikes! This is not a method I would use.

I suggest you look at Creighton if you do not want to take your temperature as in Sympto-Thermal.

Can you please tell me why you would not use this method? It’s not that I don’t want to take my temperature-- it’s that my period and sleep cycles are irregular. I chose TwoDay because the signs move with the fertility period. Thanks

 

[1ke]

but in this case, in which a grown woman who has done a great deal of thinking is involved, I find this statement overly simplistic. I think I’ve provided ample evidence that, along with my fiance, I’ve given this issue some very serious reflection and prayer.

It is not merely the fact that you have a “feeling” about it that drew my attention. Yes, all discernment includes a certainty that comes through a process that includes feeling. Again, a discernment centered on the Holy Spirit does not lead one to decisoins that are against the Truth of the Faith.

Your “feeling” has led you to include spermicidal contraception in your plan for marriage. Your “feeling” has led you to marry a non-Catholic with whom you you are already compromising on faith and morals. Your “feeling” has led you to desire to be married and to reject having children as a part of that marriage.

Am I right or wrong, I have no idea. I’m just saying these are things to think about.

Can you please tell me why you would not use this method?

The mucus instruction is not nearly specific enough. And the “two days” is not sufficient to ensure you have passed ovulation and are infertile. A minimum of count-three, meaning intercourse on the evening of the 4th day from the last fertile mucus sign, is the instruction for Creighton. The difference between the Creighton instruction and the Two-Day instruction is the difference between 96% effectiveness with perfect usage and 99.9% effectiveness with perfect usage.

Since you have indicated that you have a serious reason to avoid with your mental health and medications, I would not choose a method with only a 96% effectiveness rate and a vague mucus observation instruction.

Creighton is easy, but infinitely more precise than this Two-Day Method. Billings would also provide a higher effectiveness rate, it has similar instructions.

www.creightonmodel.com & www.fertilitycare.org for Creighton
www.woomb.org for Billings

 

[kage_ar]

The method looks similar to the Billings Method.

 

[Tink]

Thank you for the explanation; I will also look into the other two methods. I appreciate the information. I rehearsed with TwoDay this past month and with its use, I would have gone about 7 days abstaining-- seems to me that would be enough, but if there is an even more effective method out there, I will investigate.

It is not merely the fact that you have a “feeling” about it that drew my attention. Yes, all discernment includes a certainty that comes through a process that includes feeling. Again, a discernment centered on the Holy Spirit does not lead one to decisoins that are against the Truth of the Faith.

Your “feeling” has led you to include spermicidal contraception in your plan for marriage. Your “feeling” has led you to marry a non-Catholic with whom you you are already compromising on faith and morals. Your “feeling” has led you to desire to be married and to reject having children as a part of that marriage.

Am I right or wrong, I have no idea. I’m just saying these are things to think about.

I appreciate that you thought to bring this to my attention, (I mean that seriously, absolutely no sarcasm intended) but… you’re wrong. For quite some time I have not experienced a calling as a mother due to a variety of factors. It has nothing to do with my fiance not being Catholic or for a lack of not fully exploring the issue for myself as well as within the context of a relationship with him. Believe me, he and I have been thorugh all this, repeatedly, and marriage in the guidance of the Holy Spirit is truly not something we do not take lightly. If we were just getting married on “feeling”, it would have happened long ago, when we were in the infatuation-only phase. We’ve been dating for a while and have since added total trust and an abiding friendship to that infatuation. Besides, if there’s been any “compromising” going on, it’s been on HIS part (getting married in a Catholic ceremony, etc) and he is fully, completely on board with whatever else needs to be done for me to be at one with my Church. He is a rare gem who loves me wholly and truly values me as God’s daughter. Matter of fact, I amend my earlier statement-- I don’t feel this is right. I know it.

You also seem to not be too thrilled that I am marrying a Protestant. I know that the Church officially discourages this; the priest discussing our Pre-Cana with us questioned us at length and at the end of the interview told us that we seemed more spiritually prepared than many “all-Catholic” couples he has couselled. In no way has this man dragged me away from my faith… I would not marry him if he has…no, this relationship has increased my love for Christ, and deeped my appreciation for the glories of the Mass. He understands that the Catholic Church has shaped the woman he fell in love with. Hopefully someday we will be in full Communion together. We have talked with other interreligious couples and the most successful ones seem to challenge themselves to be a model for a fully unified Church. As I’ve mentioned, we are more in tune, faith-wise, than I have been with some of the Catholics I’ve dated.

I’ve emailed my college theology prof for his (name removed by moderator)ut. I value his opinion and I’m sure he will be of further help. Once again, thank you all for your honest replies. This has come with much prayerful reflection, and deep in our souls my fiance and I are at peace with this. I am eager to be SuperAunt, a vigorous contributor to my vocational calling, and an active member of my parish to-be. Everyone’s participation has forced me to truly articulate and even further think about this decision, and I am glad I visited.

And who knows-- perhaps I’ll misread the mucus and this will all be moot anyway

 

[Tink]

Thank you for the explanation; I will also look into the other two methods. I appreciate the information. I rehearsed with TwoDay this past month and with its use, I would have gone about 7 days abstaining-- seems to me that would be enough, but if there is an even more effective method out there, I will investigate.

I appreciate that you thought to bring this to my attention, (I mean that seriously, absolutely no sarcasm intended) but… you’re wrong. For quite some time I have not experienced a calling as a mother due to a variety of factors, and, with prayer, I truly cannot see why this should preclude becoming a married woman. When I think of the reasons to deliberately have a child that honestly apply to me, the main one is, “Because I am expected to,” and that doesn’t seem right at all. All my other reasons “in favor of” are just selfish-- to help ME get into heaven, to keep ME company in old age, to continue MY legacy, because I like being around babies. Those aren’t right either, and seem irresponsible. However, as I mentioned, an uexpected blessing would be welcomed, as would an adopted child, if after discernment we determing this is where God is calling us.

It has nothing to do with my fiance not being Catholic or for a lack of not fully exploring the issue for myself as well as within the context of a relationship with him. Believe me, he and I have been thorugh all this, repeatedly, and marriage in the guidance of the Holy Spirit is truly not something we do not take lightly. If we were just getting married on “feeling”, it would have happened long ago, when we were in the infatuation-only phase. We’ve been dating for a while and have since added total trust and an abiding friendship to that infatuation. Besides, if there’s been any “compromising” going on, it’s been on HIS part (getting married in a Catholic ceremony, etc) and he is fully, completely on board with whatever else needs to be done for me to be at one with my Church. He is a rare gem who loves me wholly and truly values me as God’s daughter. Matter of fact, I amend my earlier statement-- I don’t feel this is right. I know it.

You also seem to not be too thrilled that I am marrying a Protestant. I know that the Church officially discourages this; the priest discussing our Pre-Cana with us questioned us at length and at the end of the interview told us that we seemed more spiritually prepared than many “all-Catholic” couples he has couselled. In no way has this man dragged me away from my faith… I would not marry him if he has…no, this relationship has increased my love for Christ, and deeped my appreciation for the glories of the Mass. He understands that the Catholic Church has shaped the woman he fell in love with. Hopefully someday we will be in full Communion together. We have talked with other interreligious couples and the most successful ones seem to challenge themselves to be a model for a fully unified Church. As I’ve mentioned, we are more in tune, faith-wise, than I have been with some of the Catholics I’ve dated.

Once again, thank you all for your honest replies. This has come with much prayerful reflection, and deep in our souls my fiance and I are at peace with this. I am eager to be SuperAunt, a vigorous contributor to my vocational calling, and an active member of my parish to-be. Everyone’s participation has forced me to truly articulate and even further think about this decision, and I am glad I visited.

And who knows-- perhaps I’ll misread the mucus and this will all be moot anyway

 

[Tink]

Sorry–

“and marriage in the guidance of the Holy Spirit is truly not something we do not take lightly”

should read

“and marriage in the guidance of the Holy Spirit is truly something we do not take lightly”

My apologies!

 

[leonie]

Tink, I don’t know where in the world, you are from, but if you live in the Midwest, the Fransican Friars of the Immaculate is a very good order to consult. They are trained in spiritual direction.

They have a branch in the Midwest in Bloomington, Indiana

maryschildren.com/MC-Prayer-Services-FRS.htm

 

[kage_ar]

Tink - there is also a web site of Catholic Therapists, google should get you to them.

Also remember, there are solid Catholics from all over the world on this board - I’d imagine someone on here can point you toward a good solid Parish and Priest.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Just use a method that is approved by the Church and pray that God may guide you throughout your marriage Keep in mind, there are Catholic doctors who can help you with the stuff you are dealing with and offer appropriate treatments and considerations for your lifestyle. I pray that you may overcome this.

I’m dating a Protestant myself. People may have a problem with that but I’d rather date a Protestant who cares than a Catholic who doesn’t care. My boyfriend agrees with me on birth control and sexual morality and defends me against anti-Catholic sentiments. He’s also a wonderful gentleman and I see a possibility for the future. I’ve also seen many Protestants who converted because they were inspired by their Catholic spouses’ piety (I’m a convert myself and converted with most of these people). Not that your sole aim should be conversion, but I’ve seen it happen and know that God can use mixed marriages for His purpose.

I’ll be praying for you and your fiancé that God may bless your marriage and that it leads you closer to Him. Congratulations!!

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Just use a method that is approved by the Church and pray that God may guide you throughout your marriage

Sanctamaria, it’s not quite that simple. The Church teaches that NFP should only be used for “just” reasons and should not be used to permanently exclude children from a marriage.

 

[lizaanne]

Hello Tink - welcome to CA.

I have to ask, in reading all your comments about your fiancé which are quite glowing and paint him as extremely tolerant and accepting of your Faith, if he IS so accepting and open to what you believe, then why isn’t HE Catholic? What is it about the Catholic Faith that he has issues with, to the point of requiring you to attend two contradicting places of worship and support you in your compromise of Faith regarding contraception?

It’s not a criticism, I’m genuinely curious, why will he not convert?

~Liza

 

[lizaanne]

Sanctamaria, it’s not quite that simple. The Church teaches that NFP should only be used for “just” reasons and should not be used to permanently exclude children from a marriage.

I would think that taking medication that is not optional that has the potential to harm an unborn child is “just cause” for using NFP.

~Liza

 

[sanctamaria17]

Sanctamaria, it’s not quite that simple. The Church teaches that NFP should only be used for “just” reasons and should not be used to permanently exclude children from a marriage.

I think the OP has made it clear that she would accept a child if one came and that she and her husband would do their best to provide a loving, Christian household for their child. I also would think that her medication gives her just cause to postpone pregnancy for the time being.

I gave advice for a Catholic doctor so that if she wanted to have kids, a Catholic doctor would take into account her obligations as a Catholic wife as well as her health problems in order to help her and her husband come up with the best solution for their family. A good Catholic doctor might also help her find a different treatment if she chose to later have children.

I’m just sick of people saying, “Oh she shouldn’t get married because of X, Y, Z,” whether it’s health problems or because one spouse is non-Catholic, or w/e. Only God knows our hearts and I don’t see any reason for anyone to assume that the OP is taking this decision lightly or basing everything on “feelings”. She’s open to NFP and she has made it clear that she’ll research the different methods. She also did say she would accept a child if God chose to bless her and her husband with one and that they would raise the child with love. Let’s pray that the Lord may bless her and her soon to be husband through their engagement and marriage, instead of judging whether or not she should even get married.