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Feanaro_s_Wife
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**Now what if I had been told that before I married my husband? What if my heart disease had progressed so much that getting pregnant at all would be too dangerous? We would have had to use NFP to avoid children indefinitely. Would I have not been allowed to marry?
From my understanding of Church teachings, all that is required is for you to be “open to life”. Practicing NFP allows that.
If you were to get pregnant now, knowing that you did not have intercourse during a fertile time, that would be a pretty clear sign that God really wanted you to have another child. And knowing what I know of you from your posts, you would joyfully receive that blessing even if it meant your own death. THAT is “open to life”!
Malia
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
From the Catechism, the official teaching of the Catholic Church:**
From my understanding of Church teachings, all that is required is for you to be “open to life”. Practicing NFP allows that.
If you were to get pregnant now, knowing that you did not have intercourse during a fertile time, that would be a pretty clear sign that God really wanted you to have another child. And knowing what I know of you from your posts, you would joyfully receive that blessing even if it meant your own death. THAT is “open to life”!
Malia
**
“1601 The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring”
It’s not one or the other. If marriage is by its very nature ordered toward the procreation of offspring, then attempting marriage with INTENT of never having any is disordered.
1604 Since God created him man and woman, their mutual love becomes an image of the absolute and unfailing love with which God loves man. It is good, very good, in the Creator’s eyes. And this love which God blesses is intended to be fruitful and to be realized in the common work of watching over creation: “And God blessed them, and God said to them: ‘Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it.’”
1652 “By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory.”
If marriage by its very nature is ordered to procreation, then intent to marry without procreating is disordered.
NFP is a tool that couples are taught can be used for just reasons. Permanently avoiding children is not a just reason.
Dan
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Listener
Guest
You forgot to include something:If marriage by its very nature is ordered to procreation, then intent to marry without procreating is disordered.
NFP is a tool that couples are taught can be used for just reasons. Permanently avoiding children is not a just reason.
Dan
1654 Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life full of meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfulness of charity, of hospitality, and of sacrifice.
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jrnami
Guest
A Catholic marriage must be open to life, pure and simple. I believe you are misguided.I’m so glad to have found this forum, because it’s the only place I can imagine finding feedback on this issue of mine.
I am marrying a Protestant this summer. We have prayed and prayed and talked and talked, and neither of us feel called to be parents. I have mental health issues that are inheritable and require medication that may harm a developing fetus. In addition, I am also currently battling vaginismus. My fiance, for his part, is in horrific student loan debt (100k plus.)
I adore babies and he’s very good with children, so it’s not as if we do not like little ones. There are many small children in our families and I’m a very devoted godmother. In addition, God has blessed me with a writing and teaching career in which I do a lot of creating and mentoring.
All of these factors, plus the struggles of maintaining a marriage and family within a disparity of cult (although we have discussed this endlessly, worship together at both churches, and agree on the elements of the Apostle’s Creed) have led us to very seriously consider not becoming parents. Of course, if the unexpected happens, we will raise the child to the best of our abilities, and will also leave ourselves open to adoption.
The potential abortive properties of hormonal birth control makes us very uncomfortable, and he understands my desire to be in step with the Church on this. We will be using the Two-Day NFP Method with a spermicidal backup during my nonfertile phases. (Not the optimal, I know.)
I’ve tried finding support groups for this, but all I’ve turned up were very negative-sounding people who referred to families with children as “breeders” and who seemed to ignore the sharp decline of population in the Western world. Even on a Catholic website, there was an interview with a feminist who had written a book called “Good Catholic Girls” and who announced that when she goes to Mass, she just hopes “not to be offended by the sermon.” Sigh.
It just seems vastly irresponsible of us to have children at this time, if ever. Shouldn’t we follow our calling? How to discern this from selfishness?
I welcome your thoughts, as well as your shared experiences.
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CherryBomb
Guest
That’s such a good point. Our society is so tied up in the idea that what we want is always right, it can really throw people off when someone says that that isn’t always the case.Being compassionate doesn’t mean letting people do whatever they want.
I have compassion for the OP, but there’s no way to get around the Church teaching. Your marriage must be open to children. Marriage and children are deeply entwined. If you truly feel you are not called to have them, then perhaps you aren’t truly being called to the married life? I know singleness is seen as a problem in modern society, but it is a vocation every bit as valid as the vocation to marriage and children. Pray for guidance and speak to your priest!
True. NFP is acceptable when the parents have a valid reason to delay another child (say the husband lost his job, or the mother was in very poor health). But something like “I want to go party on the weekends” isn’t an acceptable reason for using NFP. At least, this is how I’ve come to understand it, feel free to correct me.NFP is not Catholic contraception or a loophole that lets Catholics get married and have no children on purpose. Unfortunatly, many people think that is what NFP is, and I would not want to confuse them further.
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rayne89
Guest
Even when the woman would die from a pregnancy?NFP is a tool that couples are taught can be used for just reasons. Permanently avoiding children is not a just reason.
Dan
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
I think I can answer this question without this clarification, but; I have never heard of any serious risk of death from pregnancy. Childbirth perhaps, and maybe that’s what you mean.Even when the woman would die from a pregnancy?
If a woman knows before attempting marriage that childbirth would result in her death, and she intends to prevent her and her future husband from ever becoming parents, it would be incorrect for her to be married, until/if this condition is corrected. This situation is likely a sign that this woman is not being called to marriage. Marriage has two purposes, both of which are indispensible when considering the intent of the couple when marrying. A couple must intend to both use their marriage for the benefit of them both, and to have children. They must be committed to both at the time of marriage, or it is invalid.
If a woman marries intending to have children, and finds after the marriage that bringing children into the world at that time would likely result in her death, she may use just methods (NFP - abstinence) to protect her life.
The bottom line is that intentions at the time of marriage matter.
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Dan_Grelinger
Guest
I did not forget that. I just realized that a built in basis for 1654 is that the couple has intended to have children. Perhaps this section helps provide clarification that the intent must exist to have children for a marriage to be entered into.You forgot to include something:
1654 Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life full of meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfulness of charity, of hospitality, and of sacrifice.
2379 The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord’s Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.
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rayne89
Guest
I was born with complicated heart defects. I had 2 open heart surgeries as a child which helped me have a reasonably normal childhood. As I have become older because of the way my heart works it puts a lot of strain on it and it has become enlarged, at this point I am in heart failure and have developed the secondary complication of atrial fibrilation which is kept at bay by some heavy duty meds. I also have a defective heart valve that has grown much weaker over time. They can not go in and replace it because my heart could not withstand the surgery. I eventually will need a transplant. I have one child, my pregnancy was high risk and very closely monitored. If I would have waited to marry past my mid twenties I could not have survived a pregnancy at all. I have used NFP since shortly after the birth of our daughter (10 years).I think I can answer this question without this clarification, but; I have never heard of any serious risk of death from pregnancy. Childbirth perhaps, and maybe that’s what you mean.
If a woman knows before attempting marriage that childbirth would result in her death, and she intends to prevent her and her future husband from ever becoming parents, it would be incorrect for her to be married, until/if this condition is corrected. This situation is likely a sign that this woman is not being called to marriage. Marriage has two purposes, both of which are indispensible when considering the intent of the couple when marrying. A couple must intend to both use their marriage for the benefit of them both, and to have children. They must be committed to both at the time of marriage, or it is invalid.
If a woman marries intending to have children, and finds after the marriage that bringing children into the world at that time would likely result in her death, she may use just methods (NFP - abstinence) to protect her life.
The bottom line is that intentions at the time of marriage matter.
If that truly is the churches teaching I would have obeyed it but I do not agree with it. I’m not sure your answer is correct though.
I can’t imagine going through my illness without my husband. I can’t imagine going through life not being married. Why would my vocation change because I am sick?
By the way I’m sure there are other illnesses that could make a pregnancy fatal.
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littlepaperstar
Guest
Yes, there are. Toxemia is one. And I agree with your post also.By the way I’m sure there are other illnesses that could make a pregnancy fatal.
Some of the health problems associated with Toxemia can be very dangerous to the mother and the child. Besides, high blood pressure there are other things that can go wrong with your health. Toxemia can create liver and kidney damage or failure. It can cause problems with your eyesight. If left untreated for too long, it can cause the patient to go into convulsions. These convulsions can lead to coma and even death.
This is because your blood pressure just keeps rising higher and higher. Such high blood pressure can also cause a stroke. Any of these health problems can affect the baby as well. If a mother is in danger, her baby will be in danger also.
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Andromeda_Organ
Guest
you’re completely right. In this case, shouldn’t the man and wife abstain from sex?Yes, there are. Toxemia is one. And I agree with your post also.
Some of the health problems associated with Toxemia can be very dangerous to the mother and the child. Besides, high blood pressure there are other things that can go wrong with your health. Toxemia can create liver and kidney damage or failure. It can cause problems with your eyesight. If left untreated for too long, it can cause the patient to go into convulsions. These convulsions can lead to coma and even death.
This is because your blood pressure just keeps rising higher and higher. Such high blood pressure can also cause a stroke. Any of these health problems can affect the baby as well. If a mother is in danger, her baby will be in danger also.
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
**If a woman knows before attempting marriage that childbirth would result in her death, and she intends to prevent her and her future husband from ever becoming parents, it would be incorrect for her to be married, until/if this condition is corrected.
The bottom line is that intentions at the time of marriage matter.
Yes, intentions matter. But “intends to prevent her and her future husband from ever** becoming parents” is too definitive a statement. She may intend to wait until her medical condition or her view of childbearing improves, however unlikely.
Many people have a too narrow view of being “open to life”. We’ll use Rayne’s example to keep things simple.
Let’s say she knows of the Church’s teachings and the seriousness of her illness BEFORE getting married.
Her and her husband agree that they will have sex (fulfilling their vows) but use NFP to avoid due to her serious medical condition.
They also agree that IF she were to become pregnant, they would graciously accept the gift from God no matter the consequences.
They also agree that if there comes a time in the future where she can be successfully treated/cured that they will definitely try to have children.
They also agree to keep the lines of communication open (both between themselves and with God) and continue to discern their abiltiy to become parents each month.
I think that this would more than fulfill their requirement to be open to children.
Things change. We don’t know the future. If we are sincerely seeking to follow God’s will then we cannot go wrong.
Malia
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